SALVATION

[setst777]

I was so focused on faith giving salvation that I missed that.

We receive salvation by faith, not eternal life by faith.
We receive eternal life by the new birth. That's what it is--birth into eternal life.
It takes rebirth from spiritual death, in which we are born, into eternal life in order to believe.
Spiritually dead men can do nothing spiritual, including see (understand the meaning of) the kingdom of God, much less believe in it.

You either understand that Jn 3:3-8 is the foundation principle regarding faith and eternal life, or you don't.
You either understand that all Scripture relating thereto must be understood in terms of that principle, or you don't.

And that principle is that man cannot understand the things of God apart from the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit,
there is no understanding (Jn 3:3-8), no gift of faith (Php 1:29) and no salvation through faith until the new birth.
I will not be repeating to you again this fundamental principle of the NT in Jn 3:3-8, Php 1:29.
You either believe them or you don't, and both belief and unbelief are above my pay grade.

I can see you choose to dismiss the context and grammar of the Scriptures, and continue with reading your own doctrines between the lines of Passages like "John 3:3-8" that never states or insinuates that the new birth comes before faith. And then you want to put the blame on me for not accepting your doctrinal changes to Scripture as "man cannot understand the things of God apart from the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit."

Well, the evidence was given, and I will let the reader decide the truth of it. Of course, I imagine that, just as in politics, there are people of various religious persuasions that will, in bias, support one view over another, even if the Scriptures state the exact opposite. In the end, God will judge the intentions of the thoughts, and whether they handled His Word's rightly.

 

[Clare73]

I can see you choose to dismiss the context and grammar of the Scriptures, and continue with reading your own doctrines between the lines of Passages like "John 3:3-8" that never states or insinuates that the new birth comes before faith. And then you want to put the blame on me for not accepting your doctrinal changes to Scripture as "man cannot understand the things of God apart from the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit.

Well, the evidence was given, and I will let the reader decide the truth of it. Of course, I imagine that, just as in politics, there are people of various religious persuasions that will, in bias, support one view over another, even if the Scriptures state the exact opposite. In the end, God will judge the intentions of the thoughts, and whether they handled His Word's rightly.

It's
sovereign rebirth --> gift of faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> glorification

 

[setst777]

None of those citations show @Clare73 disagrees that we receive eternal life by faith. Do you have a more relevant citation?

setst777 said:
You will have to talk that over with Clare73. She can tell you herself what she has been saying all along, since you are not reading the messages.

What a sorry example of an avid fan I am! Not reading her messages?? For shame!!!

You are not reading her messages otherwise you would know that Clare73 is totally against the position that we receive eternal life by faith. That was the whole point of this discussion with Clare73, so if you missed that major point of contention, then you are not reading Clare73's messages.

If you can't see that Clare73 believes that eternal life precedes faith from reading all her messages, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. And that is why I would not take up my time answering your objection.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You are not reading her messages otherwise you would know that Clare73 is totally against the position that we receive eternal life by faith. That was the whole point of this discussion with Clare73, so if you missed that major point of contention, then you are not reading Clare73's messages.

If you can't see that Clare73 believes that eternal life precedes faith from reading all her messages, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. And that is why I would not take up my time answering your objection.

Wow. Look again at this graphic, which she also posted before:

It's​

sovereign rebirth --> gift of faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> glorification​

Look where she shows eternal life (Glorification), following several steps after faith, in causal sequence. Even if you claim Salvation IS Eternal life, in order to win this little spat, it still follows sequentially, faith. @Clare73 is NOT totally against the position that we receive eternal life by faith, but rather, she has meant (and shown) that eternal life comes after several other effects of faith.

Even if you want to claim that regeneration IS eternal life, then they are simultaneous, at best, seeing as how regeneration causes the effect we know of as faith, and eternal life is contingent on faith.

 

[setst777]

Wow. Look again at this graphic, which she also posted before:

It's​

sovereign rebirth --> gift of faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> glorification​

Look where she shows eternal life (Glorification), following several steps after faith, in causal sequence. Even if you claim Salvation IS Eternal life, in order to win this little spat, it still follows sequentially, faith. @Clare73 is NOT totally against the position that we receive eternal life by faith, but rather, she has meant (and shown) that eternal life comes after several other effects of faith.

Even if you want to claim that regeneration IS eternal life, then they are simultaneous, at best, seeing as how regeneration causes the effect we know of as faith, and eternal life is contingent on faith.

The issue with your messages is that they seem to reflect your personal bias rather than what the Bible explicitly states or what others have clearly written. As a result, it appears you do not fully grasp the teachings of the Bible or the writings of others. It all becomes entangled in a web of imagination.

Clare73 believes the "sovereign rebirth" is "eternal life."

See? You don't read Clare73's messages.

You are correct in saying the following:

Mark Quayle said:
What a sorry example of an avid fan I am! Not reading her messages?? For shame!!!

That is why answering you is a is not a productive use of my time.

 

[AbbaLove]

The issue with your messages is that they seem to reflect your personal bias rather than what the Bible explicitly states or what others have clearly written. As a result, it appears you do not fully grasp the teachings of the Bible or the writings of others. It all becomes entangled in a web of imagination.

Well at least you're not as biased (imagination)

Mark Quayle said:
What a sorry example of an avid fan I am! Not reading her messages?? For shame!!!

Could there possibly be some feminie bias on his behalf ...

Always thought Clare73 to be a he (Claire a she). Maybe, it's me that is biased as their are very few she's (IMO) that come across as well versed and especially so determined to debate as one having correct interruption. Even to the extent of believing that Paul is "wrong" when it comes to the Golden Chain order of 1 Corinthians 6:11 (with justification following sanctification).

Kinda feel sorry for his wife, but for all we know she may be more explicit in putting her foot down ... having the final SAY on critical family decisions.

 

[Clare73]

Well at least you're not as biased (imagination)
Could there possibly be some feminie bias on his behalf ...
Always thought Clare73 to be a he (Claire a she). Maybe, it's me that is biased as their are very few she's (IMO) that come across as well versed and especially so determined to debate as one having correct interruption. Even to the extent of believing that Paul is "wrong" when it comes to the Golden Chain order of 1 Corinthians 6:11 (with justification following sanctification).

Previously addressed. . .
Assumption (that 1 Co 6:11 is presenting the actual order of ocurrence thereof) presented as fact.

Kinda feel sorry for his wife, but for all we know she may be more explicit in putting her foot down ... having the final SAY on critical family decisions.

Clare73 is a she.

 

[AbbaLove]

Clare73 is a she.

Only in your imagination

 

[Clare73]

Only in your imagination

Love it!

Let me do another check. . .

Sorry to disappoint. . .Clare73's husband says Clare73 is a she.

 

[AbbaLove]

Love it!

Let me do another check. . .

Sorry to disappoint. . .Clare73's husband says Clare73 is a she.

If that's true (not your imagination) have both sympathy and empathy for your hubby

PS: Now i get it ... a woman is always right ... even when perceived as he

 

[Mark Quayle]

The issue with your messages is that they seem to reflect your personal bias rather than what the Bible explicitly states or what others have clearly written. As a result, it appears you do not fully grasp the teachings of the Bible or the writings of others. It all becomes entangled in a web of imagination.

Clare73 believes the "sovereign rebirth" is "eternal life."

See? You don't read Clare73's messages.

You are correct in saying the following:

Mark Quayle said:
What a sorry example of an avid fan I am! Not reading her messages?? For shame!!!

That is why answering you is a is not a productive use of my time.

Well, I can see we have something in common there.

 

[fhansen]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right, and "exegesis reveals that all are called." Let me see your homework that results in "Again, not all will come, or, if they do come, may turn back away later." complete with an explanation of what you mean by "come" in the context of "called", and what you mean by, "turn back away," and what you mean to imply concerning the severity/permanence of it.

Due to family illness and a demanding work load I've been at bay, so to speak. Back again. Anyway I don't need any assignments-you can find the answers in my posts anyway. But I'll give you one. Faith, along with hope and love, are gifts of grace. Tell me how the following verses do not involve the ability of man to resist that grace even after once receiving it:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:220-22

“Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God.” John 12:42-43

 

[fhansen]

Well, with your assumptions, I suppose that is what it tells you, but that is Eisegesis. You have added to what it does say. Those it is talking to are the believers, and it is enjoining them to choose to be slaves to righteousness, and presents the need to put sin to death. As Jesus said in John 8, everyone practicing sin is a slave to sin. It doesn't say that the regenerated can be a slave to sin. It says, Don't be. You have inferred what it does not imply.

Nah, I just repeated what it says. And you saying that the regenerated don't sin?

 

[fhansen]

God didn't make them unable to do so, Adam's sin brought that now-inherited consequence on all his offspring according to the laws of nature.

God tested Adam's faith by trial, and he failed the test.

Just as he tested Job's faith by trial, and he passed the test.
And as in the wilderness he tested Jesus' faith by trial through the devil, and Jesus passed the test (Mt 4:1-11).

God simply revealed Adam's choice of Eve over God resulting in Adam's disobedience.

Good, then we agree that God didn't strictly predetermine man's choice but allowed it. This, by itself, tells us that God values the freedom that He gave to man- to choose rightly. And from there we can understand that He didn't suddenly change His mind afterwards and say, "I no longer want you to make a free choice but instead I'll just first change you now so dramatically that you, at least a portion of you, can't help but make a right choice. In truth, He draws us, by His grace into rectitude, into making the right choice, which begins with faith. And that marks a change in us, to a place of justice/righteousness, of solidarity with God. That constitutes our rebirth into a new life, a life with Him.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

According to your following opinion (previous quote) it sounds like you may believe that God doesn't expect modern-day Christians to "Go and sin no more" or "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen." Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to empower a born again (Titus 3:5) new creation in Christ Jesus to overcome sin?

Perhaps like some Christians you believe Paul was unable to die to sin (Stop sinning), and use that reasoning in your above quote that even a "born again" new creation follower of Christ is unable to "Go and sin no more" - "Stop sinning or something worse may happen."

Do you now have a clue (insight) into the point i'm putting forth or are you still perplexed that some of today's Christians believe that Christ expects His "followers" to stop sinning; while you seem to maintain that it's next to impossible for a modern-day Christian to "sin no more.".

Thank you for clarifying. Now that I know what you're saying, I would like to know how you reconcile your two opposing viewpoints. You must stop sinning in order to prevent something worse from happening, but then you admit you commit sins in weakness. How does your weakness not result in something worse happening to you? You can't have it both ways.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Wow. The holiness you think you identify in the bible is a sham.

It's a pearl of great price. Thank you, Lord for sharing it with me.

I know it is not a sham because I know the person who taught me. He wants you to know and understand that any righteousness you may possess is His righteousness that is in you by virtue of Him being in you (and if it is there, it will never change). He wants you to know and understand that your righteousness does not come by being obedient to the law, but is yours because of His grace that was bestowed on you when you put your trust in Christ and received Him into your heart. He wants you to know and understand how to stand fast in your liberty without using it as an opportunity for the flesh to indulge in sin.

Not knowing these things does not mean you are lost and without Christ. It just means you don't know them. If God didn't love you, He wouldn't keep on sending me to help you after you stomp on the most precious things in life.

 

[fhansen]

I know it is not a sham because I know the person who taught me. He wants you to know and understand that any righteousness you may possess is His righteousness that is in you by virtue of Him being in you (and if it is there, it will never change). He wants you to know and understand that your righteousness does not come by being obedient to the law, but is yours because of His grace that was bestowed on you when you put your trust in Christ and received Him into your heart. He wants you to know and understand how to stand fast in your liberty without using it as an opportunity for the flesh to indulge in sin.

It means that the righteousness you are clothed in is not merely declared of or imputed to you but is real righteousness given, so that you will no longer engage in the sin that leads to death. A righteousness that the law can only attest to but cannot grant. Only God can give you the real thing, only with God can you obtain the love that fulfills the law and obeys and does good apart from and without reference to the law. Only with God can we become like Him, a truth that Adam hadn't yet grasped in Eden. Then we are responsible for walking in that righteousness, which will occur as we remain in Him. If we find ourselves persistently engaged in and enslaved to grave sin, then we haven't remained in Him-we're lost again.

You're close, but still lack full understanding.

 

[setst777]

I know it is not a sham because I know the person who taught me. He wants you to know and understand that any righteousness you may possess is His righteousness that is in you by virtue of Him being in you (and if it is there, it will never change). He wants you to know and understand that your righteousness does not come by being obedient to the law, but is yours because of His grace that was bestowed on you when you put your trust in Christ and received Him into your heart.

The righteousness of Christ, by grace, is bestowed on the believer who manifests his faith by walking in the Light as he is in the light.

1 John 1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 3:7 Little children, don’t be deceived. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Can a professing Christian be “of the devil”?

1 John 3:10 This is how the children of God are differentiated from the children of the devil. Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God...

The Spirit will lead the believer as the believer follows.

The believer has an obligation to live by the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body.

Romans 8:12 So, brethren, we are obligated – but not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you [brethren] live according to the flesh, you will Die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will Live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 5:16 I say, walk by the Spirit, and you [Spirit indwelt Christians] won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh... 21 I have repeatedly warned you [Christians] that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

He wants you to know and understand how to stand fast in your liberty without using it as an opportunity for the flesh to indulge in sin.

Yes, that is correct. So, if a Christian does indulge in sin, living in any sin, is he still saved, possessing Christ's righteousness, as you say?

Here again is what you stated:
"any righteousness you may possess is His righteousness that is in you by virtue of Him being in you (and if it is there, it will never change)"

If we truly believe in Lord Jesus, we will follow him into a sanctified life of righteousness. These are the only "Christians" that the blood of Christ cleanses from all sins he does commit in weakness.

1 John 1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Do you still "belong to Christ" if you have not crucified the flesh with its lusts, and keep in step with the Spirit?

Galatians 5:24-25 [instruction for Christians] 24 Those who belong to Christ [saved] have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

 

[AbbaLove]

Thank you for clarifying. Now that I know what you're saying, I would like to know how you reconcile your two opposing viewpoints. You must stop sinning in order to prevent something worse from happening,

What post# of mine are you referencing (two opposing viewpoints)?

but then you admit you commit sins in weakness. How does your weakness not result in something worse happening to you? You can't have it both ways.

What post# of mine are you referencing (you admit you commit sins in weakness)?

When/if you commit sins in weakness you may likewise assume it's impossible for even a born again Christian with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to stop sinning. Do not fellowship with other Christians that believe it's impossible to ... "Go and sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen."

Galatians 5:24-25 [instruction for Christians] 24 Those who belong to Christ [born again followers] have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.​

Is the reason you don't think it's possbile to stop sinning because you don't believe the words of Jesus ... "Go and sin no more" or "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen"

These Words of Jesus were spoken before the indwelling empowerment of the Holy Spirit as a born again new creation in Christ. Your confusion seems to be that you question the red bold Words of Jesus as not necessary for today's modern Christians.

repentance ... fepentance ... repentance. Too many [so-called] Christians don't think they have to repent when they sin. These same [so-called] Christians don't believe it's possible for them to stop sinning. Likewise they may not believe that "something worse may happen"

 

[Mark Quayle]

Due to family illness and a demanding work load I've been at bay, so to speak. Back again. Anyway I don't need any assignments-you can find the answers in my posts anyway. But I'll give you one. Faith, along with hope and love, are gifts of grace. Tell me how the following verses do not involve the ability of man to resist that grace even after once receiving it:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:220-22

“Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God.” John 12:42-43

Once a person is regenerated, he does indeed, pretty much 24 hrs a day, resist grace and faith, "quenching the Spirit" and weakening his trust. But the re-birth itself is done apart from his permission or even his consultation, like when he was born from the womb.

Who said that grace cannot be resisted? The only reference that I am aware of, concerning Irresistible Grace, is to that grace by which God gives that regeneration, and whereby that gift, salvific faith, is generated.