SALVATION

[ladodgers6]

Finally?

Yes Sir! We bring nothing to the table, except our sin. God saves us in Christ as we are, "UNGODLY". And it's in this condition that He redeems us through His sheer Grace & Mercy. Not by anything done by us or of anything we will do. Because it is His Son who finished it at the Cross for those whom the Father gave to Him to save (John 8; 10).

​

 

[ladodgers6]

I wouldn't even now where to look for such sites-I can find all the info right here in these forums, from posts such as your own. I rather think you're suffering from exposure to anti-Catholic thought and material instead of researching the Catholic sources themselves, for yourself. I could help show you where to look, however, if truth is the objective for you.

Okay, so let me ask you this. In Classical Calvinism what is Total Depravity? Can you define it for me without googling it or without doing internet search?

 

[setst777]

The Israelites who fell were not examples to warn Christians.

The Apostle Paul plainly states that the examples of the Israelites who fell are {{{our}}} examples for {{{our}}} admonition so that the Christian is to be careful so he doesn't {{{fall}}} like some of the Israelites did.

1 Corinthians 10:6-12 (WEB) 6 Now these things were {{{our}}} examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. . .11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for {{{our}}} admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 {{{Let us}}} [Paul includes himself] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone [Christians he is writing to] fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

The Israelites who fell, did not mix it with faith, does not mean they were always unfaithful; rather, they fell. You cannot fall away from something you never had.

They were examples to warn those who trust in themselves and are working hard to gain salvation through through their good works instead of trusting God to save them from the "giants" who are blocking them from possessing the promised land.

The examples were NOT, as you say:

"to warn those who trust in themselves and their working hard to gain salvation."

Rather, the examples were given so the "us" (the Christians whom the Epistle was written to) do not fall after the same example of Disobedience.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 {{{Let us}}} therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone [Christians he is writing to] fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Christians do not enter the Promised Land (God's Resting Place) unless they endure to the end in this life first.

Have you already entered God's heavenly Kingdom? Are your works of faith now complete?

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) {{{Let us}}} fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you [Christians he is writing to] should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

Why should the Apostle Paul, and the Christians he wrote to, have to "fear" (Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) {{{Let us}}} fear) if their faith unto salvation is eternally secure???

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest (Heb 4:2–3).​

and,

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:10)​

The one working for his salvation does not get it, but the one resting from his works and trusting in Christ does.

The Book of Hebrews never states that Christians enter God's Rest now in this life on earth; rather, {{{Let Us}}} give diligence to (future) enter that Rest. You cannot give diligence to enter God's Resting Place (future) that you are already in.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 {{{Let us}}} [Paul includes himself] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone [Christians he is writing to] fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Christians do not enter God's Resting Place until their life of faithful labor and works in the Lord on earth is complete.

Revelation 14:13 (WEB) I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may {{{rest}}} from their labors; for their works follow with them.”

 

[fhansen]

He intended for me to be a sinner in need of saving, so that I would be saved —if that's what you mean by "created me to be a sinner". Now if you can present for me that the command to be without sin implies the ability to obey that command, have at it. But don't assume it.

God created everything good-and sin is not good-it opposes His will by its nature. And yet, yes, His plan included your sinfulness, knowing all that would ever happen in His creation. He values the gift of freedom He's given us so much that He's willing to allow the abuse of that freedom even as it results in evil, for a time, for His purpose. so that we might ultimately learn for ourselves the worthlessness and harmfulness of sin (which begins with the original worthless and harmful act of disobedience: autonomy from Him by the denial of His divine authority) and of the supreme value of love.

And I thought you believed in sanctification. Anyway, no one need assume that sin can be overcome:

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:7-9

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

 

[fhansen]

Okay, so let me ask you this. In Classical Calvinism what is Total Depravity? Can you define it for me without googling it or without doing internet search?

Well, it's not as if I haven't looked it up before, even if its been awhile. And I've read most of Institutes and the Canons of Dort, for example. But in any case from my understanding it refers to man's spiritual death, his total inability to will rightly when it comes to God.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:
In context, what Paul is teaching in "1 Corinthians 4:7" is that all Christians should be relying on God and God's Word rather than putting our faith in any man, follow one man over another, to receive what only God gave us by our faith in Him. All God's gifts and promises to Christians are received by Faith in God, not in man. So do not follow men.

1 Corinthians 4:6-8 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!

No Sir,

The context is not talking about unbelievers (sinners) relying on their works. Read it. Where is it talking about sinners (unbelievers)? I gave you the context, and quoted the Passage for you. If you still reject it then there is nothing more I can do for you. Many will reject God and His Word.

there is nothing that a sinner receives that he can boast about. You want something to boast about before God, but Abraham could not boast before God, so what makes you think you can?

Abraham believed God. And God accredited righteousness to him because of Abraham's Faith, not by works.

Romans 4:2-3 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

We too believe, so that we may be justified by faith, and not by the works.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

 

[AbbaLove]

I have no clue as to what point you are making.

According to your following opinion (previous quote) it sounds like you may believe that God doesn't expect modern-day Christians to "Go and sin no more" or "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen." Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to empower a born again (Titus 3:5) new creation in Christ Jesus to overcome sin?

It is good that you recognize there are times that Christians need God's forgiveness for their sins. Now your only need to extend the timeframe to "always" so that the sins of your own flesh don't count against you.

Perhaps like some Christians you believe Paul was unable to die to sin (Stop sinning), and use that reasoning in your above quote that even a "born again" new creation follower of Christ is unable to "Go and sin no more" - "Stop sinning or something worse may happen."

Do you now have a clue (insight) into the point i'm putting forth or are you still perplexed that some of today's Christians believe that Christ expects His "followers" to stop sinning; while you seem to maintain that it's next to impossible for a modern-day Christian to "sin no more.".

 

[fhansen]

Why can't you get it into your head that God can make of you what you want apart from your permission in both births? Your agreement to it is BECAUSE of your changed nature —not because of free will— can you at least see that structure (whether you agree or not that it is true)?

Why can't you get it into your head that God can do whatever He WANTS, alternatively, to your view in this case, to require your permission, however weakly and however aided by grace??? A drowning man cannot simply will himself to be saved: someone else must throw that life preserver. He works in you, without which you cannot move towards Him, but He stops at creating puppets. He's creating something here-and He can do it, to create self-motivated beings made and grown into His image, who've come to know for themselves, with His help, of the absolute injustice, chaos. disorder of any part of creation being apart from Him and outside of His will and the absolute necessity and goodness and righteousness and truthfulness inherent in being with Him. Turning to and remaining with Him, that's why we're here.

Your God seems to almost reluctantly be throwing a portion of His otherwise worthless, measly, sinful creation into heaven despite themselves and the rest into hell whereas the real God is creating something here, something great, something grand, something noble, something actually better than He began with, something like Himself-and that means and requires freedom, freedom necessarily tailored to our human scale, whatever that may be. He's patiently cultivating us to will rightly, not outright changing us so that we must do so. He could've just done all that in the beginning!!

Don't you already see this? Don't we already experience and learn in this world that integrity is to do the right thing even when no one is looking? That a more noble act for a person to do is the right thing without self-gain, without coercion, without duress, but because they freely choose to-and isn't our moral outrage right and called for when we see someone commit a heinous act against another because we know they could refrain from doing so? Little and large everyday acts of bravery, kindness, self-giving, courage. That's the kind of stuff God wants in you. Faith, hope, love, wisdom, prudence, fortitude, justice: virtues which are all gifts of grace and yet gifts we must desire, as Solomon sought wisdom, and then embrace, and practice, and express, in which case they blossom, and with which we become more like Him. That's what it means to be saved as a result of turning to Him in faith. That turning, that faith, is the first right choice we can make as He draws us to it-and that's why He declares it to be righteous- as opposed to pridefully trying to prove our righteousness apart from Him, by obedience of the law.

 

[fhansen]

Yes Sir! We bring nothing to the table, except our sin. God saves us in Christ as we are, "UNGODLY". And it's in this condition that He redeems us through His sheer Grace & Mercy. Not by anything done by us or of anything we will do. Because it is His Son who finished it at the Cross for those whom the Father gave to Him to save (John 8; 10).

Really? You mean God doesn't even demand faith? Aren't some/many excluded due to that very requirement? If grace acts strictly as you say, without our input, why aren't all blest in this way? Anyway, you really didn't address my post.

 

[fhansen]

If you are referring to salvation present (sanctification, as distinct from salvation past through faith) in the obedience of faith, then our works are the result of our salvation and are the means of our sanctification in the Holy Spirit.

Nah. salvation is worked out, as we also make our calling and election sure.

 

[fhansen]

I'm not sure I can put my finger on it precicely. We seem to be operating under different definitions of various words. That probably complicates our ability to communicate effectively. Let's just take two sentences from above as an example:

Yes, there are differences here. In the historical/classical understanding grace is more than favor-it's the life of God in us, the Holy Spirit indwelling and acting within. Grace is a purely supernatural gift, totally unmerited and yet man can cooperate with and participate in it, or not. And it's that participation, that yes to God, that pleases Him. We're His work; we don't even exist apart from Him, but we have the unique ability, the unique freedom in creation, to thwart His work in us, to prevent our blossoming into the beings He created us to be, failing to live up to our purpose, our telos. We can nonetheless be apart from Him, IOW, fueled by the same pride that drove Adam to want autonomy from God to begin with.

And yes, as I've repeated over and over, no works of the law can ever justify us, only God can do that. The basic difference between the old and new covenants is that very union with God that faith establishes or realizes, and that makes the life of grace possible where a righteousness apart from law (Rom 3:21) may now prevail in us.
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

Without that righteousness, no one will enter heaven, to paraphrase many passages.

 

[fhansen]

This reminds me of a Star Trek episode where they came across a civilization that had an ancient copy of the US Constitution but did not know the English language. Their scholars came up with the most absurd interpretation until Kirk showed them what it really says.

Yes, well this ain't a Disney movie -or Star Trek either. Like God's going to let his message get all messed up for centuries until the
Reformers, who often fought and couldn't even agree with each other, got it right LOL. Unfortunately, the language and understanding of the church that has been common to it since the beginning has become foreign sounding to many due to new theologies.

 

[fhansen]

It's a pearl of great price. Thank you, Lord for sharing it with me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God created everything good-and sin is not good-it opposes His will by its nature. And yet, yes, His plan included your sinfulness, knowing all that would ever happen in His creation. He values the gift of freedom He's given us so much that He's willing to allow the abuse of that freedom even as it results in evil, for a time, for His purpose. so that we might ultimately learn for ourselves the worthlessness and harmfulness of sin (which begins with the original worthless and harmful act of disobedience: autonomy from Him by the denial of His divine authority) and of the supreme value of love.

You do realize there is considerable human construction in your statement, no? Where does Scripture say, "He values the gift of freedom He's given us so much that He's willing to allow the abuse of that freedom even as it results in evil, for a time, for His purpose." ? Do you like John 3:16 to say that "...God loved the world SO MUCH, that he gave..." I did find a couple of paraphrases that put it that way. I wouldn't call them "translations", exactly.

And I thought you believed in sanctification. Anyway, no one need assume that sin can be overcome:

Define what you mean by sanctification in that statement. I do believe in what I call sanctification, the continual (and continuous) work of God in us —sometimes agonizing to us— where we grow in Christ, and become ever more like him. That will continue till the day we finally see him as he is, and are become complete.

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:7-9

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

Do you have a point with those passages, or are they just some that you like?

 

[Mark Quayle]

A drowning man cannot simply will himself to be saved: someone else must throw that life preserver.

A dead man can't even begin to reach toward the life preserver. Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?

 

[setst777]

A dead man can't even begin to reach toward the life preserver. Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?
View attachment 354736

You know very well that your illustration of spiritual death to life is no where taught in the Bible; yet, you continue to promote it to others anyway as God's Truth, deceiving yourself and others. That shows us that your faith is in man's foolish wisdom, and not in God.

Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith, and is by the Spirit indwelling us by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The Spirit dwelling IN us gives life inside us, and this is by faith.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

The Scriptures plainly teach that Sinners have crossed over from death to life by faith:

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives [living on earth], believing in me, will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Those who hear his word and believe are the ones that have eternal life. These believers, therefore, do not come under judgment, but instead have passed out of death into life.

John 5:24 (WEB) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and ((believes)) him who sent me has [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but [Grk: alla: but rather] "has passed" [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] ((out of death into life))”

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:8-9], even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
A dead man can't even begin to reach toward the life preserver. Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?
View attachment 354736

You know very well that your illustration of spiritual death to life is no where taught in the Bible; yet, you continue to promote it to others anyway as God's Truth, deceiving yourself and others. That shows us that your faith is in man's foolish wisdom, and not in God.

Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Your rebuke may well measure you, one day, just as I will be measured for saying so.

Meanwhile, I know very well that the illustration is not only humorous, but valid. Dead is dead. I should think you know very well that the Bible DOES use the comparison of "death to life" in that very regard.

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith, and is by the Spirit indwelling us by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The Spirit dwelling IN us gives life inside us, and this is by faith.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

The Scriptures plainly teach that Sinners have crossed over from death to life by faith:

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives [living on earth], believing in me, will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Those who hear his word and believe are the ones that have eternal life. These believers, therefore, do not come under judgment, but instead have passed out of death into life.

John 5:24 (WEB) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and ((believes)) him who sent me has [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but [Grk: alla: but rather] "has passed" [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] ((out of death into life))”

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:8-9], even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Indeed Salvation is by faith (i.e. by believing). I have said no different. But that Salvation is a gift —not earned nor deserved— and the way it comes ("by grace through faith") is therefore also gift. And, I think you will agree, one must be being born again of the Spirit of God, to be saved. Logically, then —and not to mention the (Romans 8) principle of inability— only the Spirit of God can generate that faith inside us, which is accomplished when he moves in, 'rebirthing' us, making the dead alive.

Now, I hope before the bile welled up in your throat too much, you read this far. You are looking at all these verses from the already-assumed perspective that it is the act of believing, that results in the Spirit's indwelling. Most of these are descriptions, even clinical descriptions, of the work of the Spirit of God and the result of faith. But you ignore that they are also (some of them) about the continuing work of the Spirit, that never ends and keeps us, and not about the initial act. Those are about the life after conversion, the "sanctification", as theologist commonly call it. The growth in him, and the life in him. I agree completely that we do receive him, though not by our will, (unless you are referring to fellowship), and that even by act of the will we do 'accept' him —in fact, I insist on it— but that is result, and not cause, of the Spirit having taken up residence within.

Nothing I have said here is contradicted by any Scripture you have quoted, and on further inspection, you might go to the trouble to recognize that what I have said fits these scriptures better than what you propose, (that it is by act of the human that one is saved). I particularly enjoyed reading the Greek work on John 5:24 —can you not see how that fits perfectly the notion that the Spirit must Change the person first? It says that the believer HAS PASSED, and not that he will pass, from death to life.


But, regardless, your lengthy response did not answer the question asked: "Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?" Notice, I did not ask whether your eternity hinged on your faith —that question comes next. I do believe one's eternity hinges upon their faith. But so far, unless you can straighten the matter out by answering, I am left to interpret you to say that indeed you believe that your eternity is hinged on YOUR decision, and not on God's.

 

[AbbaLove]

I have no clue as to what point you are making.

It's no surprise as neither do many others who come across as advocates of hyper-grace ... not only believing it's impossible for them to stop sinning and further more they don't think it's necessary to stop sinning in order for a Christian to inherit SALVATION.

“Not everyone who says to Me, r‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who sdoes the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we tnot prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And uthen I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"​

The above and following scripture, as inspired by the Holy Spirit, is proof enough that one's "justification" is inline with Paul's [golden chain] order of SALVATION. However, Clare73 believes Paul's order is wrong with justification instead preceding sanctification. If that were true then why would the Lord say, "depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" .... if they were already justified as Clare73 and others believe ... when they were sprinkled with holy water or immersed in baptismal water or repeated a televangelist prayer asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins and come into their heart ?

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:10-11)​

If one is seemingly an advocate of hyper-grace = God doesn't expect His followers [Christians] to stop sinning ... does that include advocates of hyper-grace "who practice lawlessness" because they don't believe the Lord requires Christians to stop sinning.

How many believers would rather believe a tare that tells them that the Lord doesn't requirer a follower (Christian) of Christ to stop sinning ... compared to the Lord Himself that said, "Go and sin no more" and "Stop sinning or something worse may happen."

A Christian knows when they sin, but some continue to sin because they don't believe it's possible to stop sinning or they find a certain pleasure in sinning.

 

[ladodgers6]

A dead man can't even begin to reach toward the life preserver. Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?
View attachment 354736

I Love this illustration. They fail to see, only God possesses the power to resurrect the dead. But in some delusional thinking synergistic theologies, refuse and deny this Biblical fact that sinners are dead in trespasses and sins. There are those with the Spirit and those without the Spirit, there's no space, no time between Death & Life. There's no third category as most if not all synergistic theologies believe in a partial regeneration; whatever that is; almost alive, but not completely dead, placed somewhere in limbo between life and death to make a decision. But how can this sinner make a decision? Are they given all the facts of their condition before God? Are they illuminated with the truth of God's Word? Where does this illumination come from? The Holy Spirit? If so, and they receive the full truth of God's Word through the illumination of the Spirit, why would anyone resist or reject God? And if these who reject God after being illuminated is their memory erased by being zapped by a pen like MIB?

I can go on forever....​

 

[setst777]

Mark Quayle said:
A dead man can't even begin to reach toward the life preserver. Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?
View attachment 354736

Your rebuke may well measure you, one day, just as I will be measured for saying so.

Meanwhile, I know very well that the illustration is not only humorous, but valid. Dead is dead. I should think you know very well that the Bible DOES use the comparison of "death to life" in that very regard.

No such comparison is made, that you made, of how one who is dead in sin receives "spiritual" life.

The Promise of God is to make alive those who believe.

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The Scriptures plainly state that we are made alive by the Spirit dwelling in us. You know this is true, yet you continue to reject it.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit indwells us by faith to give us life welling up inside us. Only by faith.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Indeed Salvation is by faith (i.e. by believing). I have said no different. But that Salvation is a gift —not earned nor deserved— and the way it comes ("by grace through faith") is therefore also gift.

You are not going to believe this, but salvation, or eternal life, to make alive, or life, or born again, or regeneration, are all referring to same change from death to life inside of us, which is all by the grace of God to whosoever believes.

The promise of the indwelling Spirit, and transformative life by the Spirit IN us, is by faith.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

And, I think you will agree, one must be being born again of the Spirit of God, to be saved.

What do you think being born again means?

We are saved by faith in Lord Jesus - that is what it means to be born again, according to Lord Jesus (John 3:9-18). You have to believe first so you can have eternal life inside of you according to Lord Jesus' reply to Nicodemus.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:8-9], even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Acts 16:31 (WEB) They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Logically, then —and not to mention the (Romans 8) principle of inability— only the Spirit of God can generate that faith inside us, which is accomplished when he moves in, 'rebirthing' us, making the dead alive.

The Spirit indwells us when we believe to give us life inside.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Now, I hope before the bile welled up in your throat too much, you read this far. You are looking at all these verses from the already-assumed perspective that it is the act of believing, that results in the Spirit's indwelling. Most of these are descriptions, even clinical descriptions, of the work of the Spirit of God and the result of faith. But you ignore that they are also (some of them) about the continuing work of the Spirit, that never ends and keeps us, and not about the initial act. Those are about the life after conversion, the "sanctification", as theologist commonly call it. The growth in him, and the life in him. I agree completely that we do receive him, though not by our will, (unless you are referring to fellowship), and that even by act of the will we do 'accept' him —in fact, I insist on it— but that is result, and not cause, of the Spirit having taken up residence within.

The Scriptures I just gave are all about how we are made alive spiritually, which is by faith. By faith, the Spirit indwells us to give us life.

Nothing I have said here is contradicted by any Scripture you have quoted, and on further inspection, you might go to the trouble to recognize that what I have said fits these scriptures better than what you propose, (that it is by act of the human that one is saved). I particularly enjoyed reading the Greek work on John 5:24 —can you not see how that fits perfectly the notion that the Spirit must Change the person first? It says that the believer HAS PASSED, and not that he will pass, from death to life.

"HAS PASSED out of death into life" is the imperfect tense, showing the result of what happened after a person believes.

John 5:24 (WEB) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and ((believes)) him who sent me has [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but [Grk: alla: but rather] "has passed" [perfect indicative active - indicating a result of a condition that was met] ((out of death into life))”

When a person hears the word and believes he no longer comes into judgement BUT RATHER he has now passed out of death into life.

For instance, if you were poor, but won a $300 million lottery, you are no longer poor BUT RATHER you have passed out of poverty into wealth.

That does not mean, as you say, that you already passed out of poverty into wealth before winning the lottery.

But, regardless, your lengthy response did not answer the question asked: "Does your eternity hinge on your decision, or on God's?"

God's decision is to save those who believe. That is what all the Scriptures state that I listed. You are saved, made alive, Spirit indwelt, born again, raised with Christ, by faith in Lord Jesus. That is The Promise.

That is the Promise of God - to Make Alive those who believe:

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Spirit indwelling us by faith to give all believers life inside - only in the New Covenant.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Notice, I did not ask whether your eternity hinged on your faith —that question comes next. I do believe one's eternity hinges upon their faith. But so far, unless you can straighten the matter out by answering, I am left to interpret you to say that indeed you believe that your eternity is hinged on YOUR decision, and not on God's.

God gives eternal life to those who believe. That is the Good Pleasure of the Council of God:

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

That is what the Scriptures state. You don't believe that.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:8-9], even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.