SALVATION

[Clare73]

I have already responded to each of those Passages for you. None of them state that God gives faith to anyone by regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

There is no faith where there is no regeneration, for no one can see (understand to belief) the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

Yes, God grants Jews and also the Gentiles the gracious opportunity to believe for salvation, but God does not elect to give some faith by regeneration and others he doesn't. That is not in the Scriptures you listed, or anywhere else in the Scriptures.

Read it again. . .

God sovereignly elects (as unaccountable as the wind) to rebirth (Jn 3:3-8) and the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3).
There is no sight, much less faith, without regeneration (Jn 3:3-8), and where there is regeneration there is the gift of faith.
Your issue is not with me, it is with these Scriptures.

If you disagree, you have to quote a Scriptures that states that God creates faith in some by regeneration to be saved.

Review Jn 3:3-8 and Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3 again.
Jesus explains in Jn 3:3-5 why one does not understand these Scriptures.

However, you can't do that, because the good pleasure of the Council of God's Will is that, through the Gospel,
to save whoever will believe.

Which in no way contradicts the council of God's Will that faith is a gift (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3), it is not a work of man's own doing.
You either believe the above Scriptures, or you don't.
I do. . .your unbelief being above my pay grade.

 

[Clare73]

Not if God made them unable to do so-that would make God to blame for their disobedience. And that's different from incurring one's own debt.

God didn't make them unable to do so, Adam's sin brought that now-inherited consequence on all his offspring according to the laws of nature.

 

[fhansen]

God didn't make them unable to do so, Adam's sin brought that now-inherited consequence on all his offspring according to the laws of nature.

Ok, so did God pre-determine that Adam would sin, making him unable to do otherwise?.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, so did God pre-determine that Adam would sin, making him unable to do otherwise?.

God tested Adam's faith by trial, and he failed the test.

Just as he tested Job's faith by trial, and he passed the test.
And as in the wilderness he tested Jesus' faith by trial through the devil, and Jesus passed the test (Mt 4:1-11).

God simply revealed Adam's choice of Eve over God resulting in Adam's disobedience.

 

[setst777]

There is no faith where there is no regeneration, for no one can see (understand to belief) the kingdom of God unless he is born again. . . God sovereignly elects (as unaccountable as the wind) to rebirth (Jn 3:3-8)

"John 3:3-8" does not state that regeneration comes before faith.

You believe that a person must be born again so he can believe, which you say is synonymous with having Eternal Life.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

Clare73 said:
Rebirth of/by the Holy Spirit is into eternal life. . .therefore rebirth of/by the Spirit is eternal life.
When do we receive the Paraclete?

Clare73 said:
No, whoever believes in him (by the new birth) does not perish because he already had eternal life from which came his faith.

The Scriptures teach the opposite.

Eternal Life (to be born again) is by faith in Lord Jesus

John 3:14-15 (ESV) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Numbers 21:9 So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.

Just as whoever was looking at the serpent raised on the stake would live.
So too, when we look to Lord Jesus, believing in him, we are given life.

and the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3).

While every true Christian is given a measure of faith to operate his gift of the Spirit as a member of the body (Romans 12:3-7), God grants Jews and Christians alike the gracious opportunity to believe and be saved, unless God hardens a person for continually rejecting His grace, as all the Scriptures keep repeating. God shows no partiality or favoritism.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life!”

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God does not show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

Romans 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who does good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Isaiah 49:6 (WEB) 6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give you as a light to the nations, so that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth

Isaiah 54:22 (WEB) Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

There is no sight, much less faith, without regeneration (Jn 3:3-8), and where there is regeneration there is the gift of faith.
Your issue is not with me, it is with these Scriptures.

Regeneration (making alive) is the Eternal Life of the Holy Spirit after he indwells us by faith - to "drink."

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

The one who "drinks" or "believes" is the person whom the Spirit indwells to give them rebirth of eternal life.

 

[setst777]

God tested Adam's faith by trial, and he failed the test.

Just as in the wilderness he tested Jesus' faith by trial through the devil, and Jesus passed the test (Mt 4:1-11).

God simply revealed Adam's choice of Eve over God resulting in Adam's disobedience.

Is that a "Reformed" teaching?

Westminster Confession of Faith – Chapter 3

• God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
• Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
• By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
• These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
• Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
• As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
• The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
• The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

 

[Clare73]

God tested Adam's faith by trial, and he failed the test.

Just as he tested Job's faith by trial, and he passed the test.
And as in the wilderness he tested Jesus' faith by trial through the devil, and Jesus passed the test (Mt 4:1-11).

God simply revealed Adam's choice of Eve over God resulting in Adam's disobedience.

Is that a "Reformed" teaching?

You tell me. . .don't have a clue.

Westminster Confession of Faith – Chapter 3

• God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
• Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
• By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
• These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
• Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
• As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
• The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
• The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

 

[setst777]

You tell me. . .don't have a clue.

You have discussed doctrine on this board for many years; yet, you state that you do not have a clue about what the "Reformed" teach regarding the Sovereignty of God? I find that difficult to believe. I did not know what "Reformed" or "Calvinism" meant until my first couple years of discussing Christian doctrine on Christian message boards. After a few years, I had become quite familiar with the teachings of the Reformed and the Calvinists.

 

[Clare73]

You have discussed doctrine on this board for many years; yet, you state that you do not have a clue about what the "Reformed" teach regarding the Sovereignty of God? I find that difficult to believe. I did not know what "Reformed" or "Calvinism" meant until my first couple years of discussing Christian doctrine on Christian message boards. After a few years, I had become quite familiar with the teachings of the Reformed and the Calvinists.

You asked about a specific doctrine. . .nor would I attempt to explain any of their doctrines because I am familiar only with Scripture.

I can tell you what Scripture teaches about the sovereignty of God. . .see Da 4:35.
Also check out Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48, Mt 10:29-30, Lk 22:22, Ro 8:29-30, 9:14-29, 11:25-34, Eph 1:4-12, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.

 

[setst777]

You asked about a specific doctrine. . .nor would I attempt to explain any of their doctrines because I am familiar only with Scripture.

I was referring to what you wrote about Adam's free will that God holds him accountable for, as you expressed in your message that I responded to. I asked you if that was "Reformed" teaching?

You replied as follows:

Clare73 said:
You tell me. . .don't have a clue.

I find that impossible to believe coming from a seasoned Christian debater such as yourself, whose replies are identical to the "Reformed" and "Calvinists" unless being deceptive.

I can tell you what Scripture teaches about the sovereignty of God. . .see Da 4:35.
Also check out Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48, Mt 10:29-30, Lk 22:22, Ro 8:29-30, 9:14-29, 11:25-34, Eph 1:4-12, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2.

I have not met a Christian yet who does not know about and believe that God is Sovereign. However, I can see by the Scriptures you listed, and by all your responses on this Christian Message Board, that your doctrinal beliefs are perfectly in tune with the "Reformed" church, and with "Calvinism."

We agree that God is sovereign, and does what he wills, and determines what he determines. Regarding Salvation, in accordance with the good pleasure of Sovereign Council of God's Will, God has determined that, through the Gospel, everyone who believes may be saved, receiving eternal life by faith.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 3:14-15 (ESV) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

God has determined to indwell by His Spirit to regenerate (give eternal life) to everyone who "believes" (drinks).

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

The one who "drinks" or "believes" is the person whom the Spirit indwells to give them rebirth of eternal life.

This is by the Sovereign will of God.

To possess the "water of life" the thirsty must take it.

Revelation 22:13 (WEB)
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!”
He who is thirsty, let him come.
He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Clare73]

You tell me. . .don't have a clue.

I was referring to what you wrote about Adam's free will that God holds him accountable for, as you expressed in your message that I responded to. I asked you if that was "Reformed" teaching?
You replied as follows:

Clare73 said:
You tell me. . .don't have a clue.
I find that impossible to believe coming from a seasoned Christian debater such as yourself, whose replies are identical to the "Reformed" and "Calvinists" unless being deceptive.

Or unless we are all in agreement with Scripture. . .

I think you just demonstrated the Scriptural basis for "Reformed" and "Calvinists."

I have not met a Christian yet who does not know about and believe that God is Sovereign.

Good news. . .

However, I can see by the Scriptures you listed, and by all your responses on this Christian Message Board, that your doctrinal beliefs are perfectly in tune with the "Reformed" church, and with "Calvinism."

Imagine that! . . .we all agree with Scripture. . .what a concept?

We agree that God is sovereign, and does what he wills, and determines what he determines. Regarding Salvation, in accordance with the good pleasure of Sovereign Council of God's Will, God has determined that, through the Gospel, everyone who believes may be saved, receiving eternal life by faith

Agreed. . .

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Salvation is past, present and future. . .take your pick as to which one the above refers.
Past = from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the Judgment, by faith in Christ's atonement (Eph 2:8-9).
Present = sanctification/holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).
Future = glorifification (1 Co 15:42-44).

No one can see (know the meaning of in order to believe) the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3-5).
It all starts with the sovereign new birth and the gift of faith (Php 1:29).
We do not see the kingdom of God, we do not believe and we are not saved until our sovereign new birth (Jn 3:3-5), which is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

All understanding of faith and salvation must be in agreement with this statement of Jesus in Jn 3:3-8.

You are setting Scripture against itself. . .faulty hermeneutic.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:
We agree that God is sovereign, and does what he wills, and determines what he determines. Regarding Salvation, in accordance with the good pleasure of Sovereign Council of God's Will, God has determined that, through the Gospel, everyone who believes may be saved, receiving eternal life by faith

Agreed. . .

Well, you kept disagreeing that we receive eternal life by faith. Now you state that you agree that eternal life is by faith.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

Clare73 said:
Rebirth of/by the Holy Spirit is into eternal life. . .therefore rebirth of/by the Spirit is eternal life.
When do we receive the Paraclete?

Clare73 said:
No, whoever believes in him (by the new birth) does not perish because he already had eternal life from which came his faith.

The Scriptures teach the opposite of these quotes of yours.

Eternal Life (to be born again) is by faith in Lord Jesus

John 3:14-15 (ESV) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have [Greek: eche] eternal life.

Bibles translate "may have" [eche] differently in "John 3:15" and "John 3:16," but "eche" is "subjunctive," meaning that what follows "eche" is the potential consequence or result of a condition of the subject: "whoever believes." The result is eternal life. That is why the "Interlinear" Greek to English transliteration for "eche" is "may have" or "should have."

Koine Greek: Verbs - Subjunctive - WikiChristian

www.wikichristian.org

Subjunctive (Ancient Greek) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Greek to English Interlinear:

John 3:
15 ἵνα (in order that) πᾶς (everyone) ὁ (the) πιστεύων (believing) ἐν (in) αὐτῷ (him) ἔχῃ (may have) ζωὴν (life) αἰώνιον. (everlasting.)

John 3:15 Interlinear: that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 Οὕτως (Thus) γὰρ (for) ἠγάπησεν (loved) ὁ (the) θεὸς (God) τὸν (the) κόσμον (world) ὥστε (as-and) τὸν (the) υἱὸν (Son) τὸν (the) μονογενῆ (only-begotten) (he gave,) ἵνα (in order that) πᾶς (everyone) ὁ (the) πιστεύων (believing) εἰς (into) αὐτὸν (him) μὴ (not) ἀπόληται (might be destroyed) ἀλλὰ (but) ἔχῃ (may have) ζωὴν (life) αἰώνιον. (everlasting)

John 3:16 Interlinear: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Notice that "may have" is the correct transliteration of the word "eche" in both John 3:15 and John 3:16.

If you wish to continue to deny the Greek meaning of words, that is your decision. But by doing so, you are coming to a false conclusion.

I put the evidence on this board not just for your sake, but for all those who will read this message to time-indefinite. Since you are the recipient of this message, they will see how you keep rejecting the actual Greek meaning of words to hold onto your own doctrinal position.

However, another dead giveaway is that Lord Jesus compares believing in him so they may have eternal life to that of Moses raising up the bronze serpent on a pole, that those looking upon it may have life. This evidence you also keep ignoring to your loss.

Salvation is past, present and future. . .take your pick as to which one the above refers.
Past = from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the Judgment, by faith in Christ's atonement (Eph 2:8-9).
Present = sanctification/holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).
Future = glorifification (1 Co 15:42-44).

So now you are rejecting your earlier teaching that "Salvation" only means being saved from the "wrath of God"?

Clare73 said:
Salvation is from the judgment/wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's sin through faith in his atoning work for one's sin.

Yours above is the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life of John 3:3-8, which is
accompanied with the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29, 2 Peter 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3), and which faith is salvation from God's judgment on sin.

No one can see (know the meaning of in order to believe) the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3-5).
It all starts with the sovereign new birth and the gift of faith (Php 1:29).
We do not see the kingdom of God, we do not believe and we are not saved until our sovereign new birth (Jn 3:3-5), which is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

All understanding of faith and salvation must be in agreement with this statement of Jesus in Jn 3:3-8.

You are setting Scripture against itself. . .faulty hermeneutic.

I interpreted nothing. Rather, I introduced the Scripture.

What you mean by "hermeneutic" is to change words and meanings, and add your own beliefs into the text. That kind of interpretation is bound to lead to bias and error.

Actually, you are shifting your beliefs repeatedly. And the reason this is happening is because you are forcing your own beliefs between the lines of Scripture to make them fit your doctrines. But it's not working for you.

For instance, you stated that "John 3:3-8" means that regeneration must happen first so we can believe. But that is not what "John 3:3-8" states. Rather, you are forcing your doctrine into the text. Lord Jesus defined what he meant in "John 3:14-18." But you cannot accept his teaching.

Believe/eat/drink/take so you can possess eternal life

You agree that "Eternal Life" is the "New Birth." Very good.

But that doesn't work for you, because the Scriptures plainly state that we receive eternal life (the rebirth of our spirits) by faith - by first drinking (John 7:37-39; John 4:14), eating (John 6:51, 58), believing (John 3:14-16; John 7:37-39; John 4:14) in Lord Jesus and taking (Revelation 22:17) the free gift of Eternal Life by faith.

The regeneration (making alive) is the salvation of the Holy Spirit after he indwells us by faith.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to Eternal Life.

Notice that "John 4:14" and "John 7:37-39" both agree that we “drink” or “believe” to have Eternal Life.

To possess the "Water of Life" the thirsty must take it.

Revelation 22:17 (WEB)
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!”
He who hears, let him say, “Come!”
He who is thirsty, let him come.
He who desires, let him {{{take}}} the water of life freely.

We don't live forever so we can eat the Bread of Life; rather we eat the Bread of Life so we can live forever (John 6:51, 58).

Lord Jesus explained what he meant by “eat the bread of life” in the following:

John 6:35 (WEB) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

We eat the Bread of Life so we can Live Forever, not the other way around.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone “eats of this bread,” he will live forever.

John 6:58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven — not as our fathers ate the manna, and died. He who eats this bread will live forever.

Eternal Life is the same as saying we cross over from death to life, and is by God through our Faith.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. [Regeneration is by faith]

• Hearing the word.
• Believing.
• Has Eternal Life
• and does not come into judgment
• but rather"
• has passed out of death into life.

Notice the "Eternal Life" is listed with "does not come into judgment" as the result of believing. Remember, you already stated that salvation means "does not come into judgment (wrath)" and is totally different than receiving eternal life. You stated we receive that salvation through faith - a faith we received by eternal life.

Clare73 said:
Salvation is the remission of sin, through the gift of faith in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atonement of Jesus Christ,
thereby removing the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt at the Judgment.

All these Passages teach us that Eternal Life is regeneration by God's indwelling Spirit IN those who believe. You can ignore and contradict this teaching from Lord Jesus, but when you do this, you are showing to all the readers of these posts to time-indefinite that you are willing to reject the correct meaning of words in Scripture, and context, just to hold onto your own doctrinal beliefs. And I am fine with that if you are.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Read the posts in context, and you will be able to understand what we are discussing. By her own admission, Clare73, believes that salvation only means to be saved from God's wrath, period.

Citation, please. I very much doubt that @Clare73 claims salvation means ONLY that. She may not list everything that something means or includes, and Salvation means a very extensive list of things. Further, you and everyone else, often emphasize a fact for clarity, sometimes to the point of hyperbole.


Apart from the citation, I can only guess that she was giving a technical narrow explanation of the use of "Salvation" in the context only of what the definition of the word implies —and not blurring the issue with irrelevant statements that a long dissertation would add.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Those written in the Book of Life will come to Him, and remain with Him. No one knows who they are except Him. Meanwhile exegesis reveals that all are called. Again, not all will come, or, if they do come, may turn back away later.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right, and "exegesis reveals that all are called." Let me see your homework that results in "Again, not all will come, or, if they do come, may turn back away later." complete with an explanation of what you mean by "come" in the context of "called", and what you mean by, "turn back away," and what you mean to imply concerning the severity/permanence of it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, you kept disagreeing that we receive eternal life by faith. Now you state that you agree that eternal life is by faith.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

Clare73 said:
Rebirth of/by the Holy Spirit is into eternal life. . .therefore rebirth of/by the Spirit is eternal life.
When do we receive the Paraclete?

Clare73 said:
No, whoever believes in him (by the new birth) does not perish because he already had eternal life from which came his faith.

None of those citations show @Clare73 disagrees that we receive eternal life by faith. Do you have a more relevant citation?

 

[setst777]

None of those citations show @Clare73 disagrees that we receive eternal life by faith. Do you have a more relevant citation?

You will have to talk that over with Clare73. She can tell you herself what she has been saying all along, since you are not reading the messages.

 

[setst777]

Citation, please. I very much doubt that @Clare73 claims salvation means ONLY that. She may not list everything that something means or includes, and Salvation means a very extensive list of things. Further, you and everyone else, often emphasize a fact for clarity, sometimes to the point of hyperbole.


Apart from the citation, I can only guess that she was giving a technical narrow explanation of the use of "Salvation" in the context only of what the definition of the word implies —and not blurring the issue with irrelevant statements that a long dissertation would add.

My discussion is with Clare73. If you have a topic question you want to discuss with me, fine. But you are not a middle-man I have to prove anything to, or give citations to, involving someone I am discussing doctrine with.

 

[Clare73]

setst777 said:
We agree that God is sovereign, and does what he wills, and determines what he determines. Regarding Salvation, in accordance with the good pleasure of Sovereign Council of God's Will, God has determined that, through the Gospel, everyone who believes may be saved, receiving eternal life by faith

I was so focused on faith giving salvation that I missed that.

We receive salvation by faith, not eternal life by faith.
We receive eternal life by the new birth. That's what it is--birth into eternal life.
It takes rebirth from spiritual death, in which we are born, into eternal life in order to believe.
Spiritually dead men can do nothing spiritual, including see (understand the meaning of) the kingdom of God, much less believe in it.

You either understand that Jn 3:3-8 is the foundation principle regarding faith and eternal life, or you don't.
You either understand that all Scripture relating thereto must be understood in terms of that principle, or you don't.

And that principle is that man cannot understand the things of God apart from the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit,
there is no understanding (Jn 3:3-8), no gift of faith (Php 1:29) and no salvation through faith (Eph 2:8-9) until the new birth.
I will not be repeating again this fundamental principle of the NT in Jn 3:3-8, Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3, Eph 2:8-9.
You either believe them or you don't, and both belief and unbelief are above my pay grade.

EDIT: It's
sovereign rebirth --> gift of faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> glorification

 

[Mark Quayle]

My discussion is with Clare73. If you have a topic question you want to discuss with me, fine. But you are not a middle-man I have to prove anything to, or give citations to, involving someone I am discussing doctrine with.

All of us lurking or contributing to this thread are permitted questions and comments. If you don't want to deal with me, that is fine. But I will point out libel or even appearance of libel against someone precious to me, if I wish. Shoot, I can even point out bad reasoning, quite apart from the fact that @Clare73 is important to me. If you claim she said something that I don't think she said, in order to present the invalid appearance that I think you intend, I will remark on it, if I see it.

But fwiw, I understand your frustration. Sometimes I disregard interruptions, too.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So now you are rejecting your earlier teaching that "Salvation" only means being saved from the "wrath of God"?

You will have to talk that over with Clare73. She can tell you herself what she has been saying all along, since you are not reading the messages.

What a sorry example of an avid fan I am! Not reading her messages?? For shame!!!

My discussion is with Clare73. If you have a topic question you want to discuss with me, fine. But you are not a middle-man I have to prove anything to, or give citations to, involving someone I am discussing doctrine with.

I also like to intervene on the behalf of someone I like or that I see being treated unfairly, in order to try to explain why they say what they do. I do that with Scripture, too. For eg. if God says words that taken out of context appear to mean something they don't, I will point out the context and how they affect what one should take those words to mean. If @Clare73 says that eternal life is not the result of faith, I will point out that she doesn't mean that faith doesn't ultimately result in eternal life, but that faith results in salvation which ultimately results in eternal life. She has pointed that out many times, both in words and even graphically once. I will try to find that graphic and add it here.