SALVATION

[Clare73]

Finally you understand. It took a while, by I always hoped, in the end, you would finally see.

A little late to the party. . .said that way back in post #60.

 

[setst777]

A little late to the party. . .said that way back in post #60.

No need to take pride in yourself for what others have been trying to show you for years. "Salvation" is to cross over from death to life, and is eternal life by the Spirit indwelling you, and this only comes by faith in Lord Jesus. You have vehemently denied this and fought against it for years. Now that you finally see, do not boast, but graciously be thankful for those patient Christians who have continued to show you that Gospel by which we are saved through faith in Lord Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

A little late to the party. . .I said that way back in post #60.

No need to take pride in yourself for what others have been trying to show you for years. That can only lead to arrogance.

Non-responsive. . .

"Salvation" is to cross over form death to life, and is eternal life by the Spirit indwelling you, and this only come by faith in Lord Jesus. You have vehemently denied this and fought against it for years. Now that you finally see, do not boast, but graciously be thankful for those patient Christians who have continued to show you that Gospel by which we are saved through faith in Lord Jesus.

Nope. . .

Regeneration--the new birth by the Holy Spirit into eternal life--comes before everything. . .for no one can see (know the meaning of) the kingdom of God, much less believe in it, until he is sovereignly born again of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

 

[setst777]

Non-responsive. . .

Nope. . .

Regeneration--the new birth by the Holy Spirit into eternal life--comes before everything. . .for no one can see (know the meaning of) the kingdom of God, much less believe in it, until he is sovereignly born again of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

So, now you are saying that a Gospel Salvation that we receive by faith is:

Not crossing over from death to life?
Not being given eternal life by the Spirit indwelling you?

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

Galatians 3:2 (WEB) 2 I just want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?

What do you now think salvation is?

We are raised to life with Christ by faith.

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

We cross over from death to life (eternal life) by faith:

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, {{{but}}} has passed out of death into life. [Regeneration is by faith]

• Hearing the word.
• Believing.
• Has Eternal Life
• and does not come into judgment
• "but rather"
• "has passing out of death into life."

 

[Clare73]

So, now you are saying that a Gospel Salvation that we receive by faith is:

Not crossing over from death to life?
Not being given eternal life by the Spirit indwelling you?

Salvation is from the judgment/wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's sin through faith in his atoning work for one's sin.

Yours above is the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life of Jn 3:3-8, which is
accompanied with the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3), and which faith is salvation from God's judgment on sin.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}
John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
Galatians 3:2 (WEB) 2 I just want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
What do you now think salvation is?

In the NT, salvation through faith is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's sin at the Judgment.

We are raised to life with Christ by faith.

Faith is the source of all that is related to salvation.
The sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8) is the source of eternal life and the gift of faith, (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3), which gift of faith is the source of salvation from the wrath of God and of justification (imputed forensic righteousness; i.e., right standing, sinlessness, not holiness).

Salvation, justification (imputed forensic righteousness), sanctification, resurrection, glorification are all the result of the gift of faith at the new birth of Jn 3:3-8.

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

We cross over from death to life (eternal life) by faith:

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, {{{but}}} has passed out of death into life. [Regeneration is by faith]

• Hearing the word.
• Believing.
• Has Eternal Life
• and does not come into judgment
• "but rather"
• "has passing out of death into life."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Again, they're the same thing. Rom 6 from beginning to end tells you that you can be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness with the former leading to death and the latter, sanctification, leading to eternal life.

Well, with your assumptions, I suppose that is what it tells you, but that is Eisegesis. You have added to what it does say. Those it is talking to are the believers, and it is enjoining them to choose to be slaves to righteousness, and presents the need to put sin to death. As Jesus said in John 8, everyone practicing sin is a slave to sin. It doesn't say that the regenerated can be a slave to sin. It says, Don't be. You have inferred what it does not imply.

 

[Mark Quayle]

As Augustine put it, "God does not command what is impossible for man to obey." That would be rather dishonest anyway.

Man can obey, but only as he remains in communion with God, where we're meant to be. That's a main point of the New Covenant, "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

Who is Augustine? (I.e. I don't care much what Augustine says. I don't get my prompts from him).

It is not dishonest for God to command what man cannot obey. Apparently you, (and I can't exactly blame you for it, since you have been trained in Roman Catholicism), think that this life is about your Christian worth as measured by your piety or obedience.

The reason for the command is, as Romans and other books show, to demonstrate our need for Christ. It demonstrates, in fact, our inability to obey, apart from him. No blinding anyone to the facts, there, except to the already blind. Now you said as much, with, "Apart from me you can do nothing", yet call it dishonest? I want you to tell me of someone, anyone, who, subsequent to their regeneration, has never sinned.

No, Christ continues to demonstrate to us, and that, at his own cost, that we desperately need him.

 

[Clare73]

As Augustine put it, "God does not command what is impossible for man to obey." That would be rather dishonest anyway.

Man can obey, but only as he remains in communion with God, where we're meant to be. That's a main point of the New Covenant, "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

Who is Augustine? (I.e. I don't care much what Augustine says. I don't get my prompts from him).

It is not dishonest for God to command what man cannot obey.

Man justly owes God obedience whether he is able to do so or not.

The invalid who borrowed money from me on agreement to pay it back owes his debt, whether he is able to pay or not.

Apparently you, (and I can't exactly blame you for it, since you have been trained in Roman Catholicism), think that this life is about your Christian worth as measured by your piety or obedience.
The reason for the command is, as Romans and other books show, to demonstrate our need for Christ. It demonstrates, in fact, our inability to obey, apart from him. No blinding anyone to the facts, there, except to the already blind. Now you said as much, with, "Apart from me you can do nothing", yet call it dishonest? I want you to tell me of someone, anyone, who, subsequent to their regeneration, has never sinned.
No, Christ continues to demonstrate to us, and that, at his own cost, that we desperately need him.

 

[fhansen]

Who is Augustine? (I.e. I don't care much what Augustine says. I don't get my prompts from him).

He's just a guy who sometimes said some true things such as in this case, and therefore was worth quoting. He wasn't right in every case but you'd still be better off hearing him than Calvin or Luther.

It is not dishonest for God to command what man cannot obey.

Sure, command man to obey what he can't obey, then blame and kick him out of Eden for disobedience anyway. Sounds real honest to me. Then later put him in a place of eternal torment for continuing to do what he can't help but do: disobey. Or, if the guys lucky, then just change him around so that now he does obey. Honest, and rational, too.

The reason for the command is, as Romans and other books show, to demonstrate our need for Christ. It demonstrates, in fact, our inability to obey, apart from him. No blinding anyone to the facts, there, except to the already blind. Now you said as much, with, "Apart from me you can do nothing", yet call it dishonest? I want you to tell me of someone, anyone, who, subsequent to their regeneration, has never sinned.

Of course they've sinned, as I maintained, but they cannot overcome sin apart from Him, which He promises they will now be able to do. So which is it, can you sin wantonly now or must you overcome sin to one degree or another, however God deems to be right? Scripture says we must be sanctified in order to enter heaven.

No, Christ continues to demonstrate to us, and that, at his own cost, that we desperately need him.

As I've maintained, over and over again. We must enter union with Him and remain in that union, as born out by our righteousness. If you're sinning wantonly, greviously, persistently, then you aren't in Him or He in you

 

[setst777]

Salvation is from the judgment/wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's sin through faith in his atoning work for one's sin.

Yours above is the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life of Jn 3:3-8, which is
accompanied with the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3), and which faith is salvation from God's judgment on sin.

Read the Scriptures in context. Salvation is not only from wrath, but salvation is onto eternal life.

You got half of what "salvation" means correct.

We are saved by faith, and by this salvation that we receive by faith, we are saved:

• From God's wrath
• Onto Eternal Life - regeneration by the Holy Spirit in "whoever believes."

John 3:14-17 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Hebrews 5:9 Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation

Romans 1:16 (WEB) For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek.

Titus 3:5 (WEB) But according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

And the regeneration (making alive) is the salvation of the Holy Spirit after he indwells us by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

I can show you the way to salvation from the Scriptures, but you have to believe the Scriptures - all of it - to understand what salvation is.

 

[Mark Quayle]

fhansen said:
UGH. You inserted the word "elect" to suit an erroneous limited atonement viewpoint. God didn't put that word there, however. He loves the world, He loves man, lavishly, whom He created good, in His own image, He knows our potential and He seeks to have us fulfill it. Some will, some won't; that's what we know.

Mark Quayle said:
To whom is he talking? And to whom is the promise made?

To whomever will come to Him. He died for all

Exegesis shows a specific audience. While what you say there does describe them, in part, you miss the point. The larger context, the whole of Scripture, shows that those who will come to him are the Elect. Problem?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Finally you understand. It took a while, by I always hoped, in the end, you would finally see.

Blessings.

Are you implying that @Clare73 hasn't been saying this all along, or that this is a new thought to her? Do you think you have finally convinced her of something she did not think before?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Read the Scriptures in context. Salvation is not only from wrath, but salvation is onto eternal life.

You got half of what "salvation" means correct.

We are saved by faith, and by this salvation that we receive by faith, we are saved:

• From God's wrath
• Onto Eternal Life - regeneration by the Holy Spirit in "whoever believes."

John 3:14-17 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Hebrews 5:9 Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation

Romans 1:16 (WEB) For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek.

Titus 3:5 (WEB) But according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

And the regeneration (making alive) is the salvation of the Holy Spirit after he indwells us by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

I can show you the way to salvation from the Scriptures, but you have to believe the Scriptures - all of it - to understand what salvation is.

Did you want a whole dissertation on what Salvation means from her? @Clare73 is no slouch, nor is she ignorant of what the Scriptures say, nor does she fail to believe all of it, nor, btw, does she deserve this condescending post.

 

[setst777]

Did you want a whole dissertation on what Salvation means from her? @Clare73 is no slouch, nor is she ignorant of what the Scriptures say, nor does she fail to believe all of it, nor, btw, does she deserve this condescending post.

Obviously Clare73 is your idol. Even many Muslim scholars know the Christian Scriptures far better than most Christians, yet, they remain ignorant of what the Scriptures say IN CONTEXT.

Telling the truth in love, is not condescension, unless one is too proud to be corrected. To the proud, any correction seems to them to be condescending their presumed great nobleness.

 

[setst777]

Are you implying that @Clare73 hasn't been saying this all along, or that this is a new thought to her? Do you think you have finally convinced her of something she did not think before?

Read the posts in context, and you will be able to understand what we are discussing. By her own admission, Clare73, believes that salvation only means to be saved from God's wrath, period.

 

[Clare73]

Read the Scriptures in context. Salvation is not only from wrath, but salvation is onto eternal life.

The sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8) is to eternal life and the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3).

Salvation is the remission of sin, through the gift of faith in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atonement of Jesus Christ,
thereby removing the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt at the Judgment.

As a result of that remission of sin (sinlessness, right standing with God), God declares one "not guilty," acquitted (justification); i.e., imputation to them of a forensic righteousness (sinless, but not holy).
Actual righteousness (holiness) is through the sanctification of obedience in the Holy Spirit.

Justification and sanctification are not salvation, they are the result of salvation.

new birth --> faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> resurrection. . .all purchased by Christ's death on the cross.

You got half of what "salvation" means correct.

We are saved by faith, and by this salvation that we receive by faith, we are saved

• From God's wrathOnto Eternal Life - regeneration by the Holy SpiritOnto Eternal Life - regeneration by the Holy Spirit:
• Onto Eternal Life - regeneration by the Holy Spirit in "whoever believes."

The spiritually dead can do nothing spiritual. . .they are dead. . .the dead don't do anything.
Unregenerate (spiritually dead) man cannot see (know the meaning of) the kingdom of God apart from the new birth (Jn 3:3-8).
He must be born again to even get its meaning, much less believe in it.
Rebirth from eternal death; i.e., sovereign regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs before everything spiritual. . .before faith, salvation, justification, sanctification, resurrection.

John 3:14-17 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Hebrews 5:9 Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation

Romans 1:16 (WEB) For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek.

Titus 3:5 (WEB) But according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

And the regeneration (making alive) is the salvation of the Holy Spirit after he indwells us by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

I can show you the way to salvation from the Scriptures, but you have to believe the Scriptures - all of it - to understand what salvation is.

 

[Clare73]

Read the posts in context, and you will be able to understand what we are discussing. By her own admission,
Clare73, believes that salvation only means to be saved from God's wrath, period.

See post #1076, above.

 

[setst777]

The sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8) is to eternal life and the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:26, Ro 12:3).

I have already responded to each of those Passages for you. None of them state that God gives faith to anyone by regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Yes, God grants Jews and also the Gentiles the gracious opportunity to believe for salvation, but God does not elect to give some faith by regeneration and others he doesn't. That is not in the Scriptures you listed, or anywhere else in the Scriptures.

If you disagree, you have to quote a Scriptures that states that God creates faith in some by regeneration to be saved. However, you can't do that, because the good pleasure of the Council of God's Will is that, through the Gospel, to save whoever will believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 3:14-15 (ESV) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:9], so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that "whoever believes" [Subject] in him may have Eternal Life. [present subjunctive active participle]

That does not mean God just saves from wrath, but he saves everyone who believes to be His very own possession purchased by the Blood of His Son.

Romans 3:25 (NIV) God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

Revelation 5:9 (WEB) and bought us for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,

Salvation is the remission of sin, through the gift of faith in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atonement of Jesus Christ,
thereby removing the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt at the Judgment.

Where do the Scriptures state that God gifts the faith in the blood? Because that is not what "Romans 3:25" states.

Besides that, however, again you only listed half of what it means to be saved.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

As a result of that remission of sin (sinlessness, right standing with God), God declares one "not guilty," acquitted (justification); i.e., imputation to them of a forensic righteousness (sinless, but not holy).
Actual righteousness (holiness) is through the sanctification of obedience in the Holy Spirit.

The spiritually dead can do nothing spiritual. . .they are dead. . .the dead don't do anything.
Rebirth from eternal death; i.e., sovereign regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs before everything spiritual. . .before faith, salvation, justification, sanctification, resurrection.

Every sinner has the ability to repent and believe in the one who is righteous, and now offers them salvation from sin and death.

Luke 18:13-14 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

If God commands all people everywhere to repent, and God's kind intention is to have mercy on all sinners, then all are granted an equal opportunity to believe in Lord Jesus, or reject him, after hearing the Gospel.

Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Acts 17:30 (WEB) The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

You are assuming that those who do not have the indwelling Spirit are hopelessly destined to think only evil, but the Scriptures teach that even sinners can feel burdened, crushed, heavy laden, remorse, and guilt over their shameful lives. Those are sinners Lord Jesus was sent to save.

Luke 4:18-19 (WEB)
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Matthew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Not all unbelievers helplessly think and live only to sin, for God's law is written on everyone's hearts.

Romans 2:13 (WEB) For it isn’t the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14 (for when Gentiles who don’t have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.

Even animals are not alien to the universal language of love, and respond to love in like manner. Anyone who has ever had a pet experientially knows the truth of this.

 

[fhansen]

Man justly owes God obedience whether he is able to do so or not.

Not if God made them unable to do so-that would make God to blame for their disobedience. And that's different from incurring one's own debt.

 

[fhansen]

Exegesis shows a specific audience. While what you say there does describe them, in part, you miss the point. The larger context, the whole of Scripture, shows that those who will come to him are the Elect. Problem?

Those written in the Book of Life will come to Him, and remain with Him. No one knows who they are except Him. Meanwhile exegesis reveals that all are called. Again, not all will come, or, if they do come, may turn back away later.