Salvation from the Catholic View Compared to the Eastern Orthodox View

[Lukaris]

Just as a basic Orthodox layperson, I believe we basically agree with western Christianity on salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10).

It is the judgment of non believers in which we leave more to God than a more precise definition. We believe the good are saved & the evil condemned ( John 5:24-30 is read in our funeral service). Scriptures like John 15:18-25, Romans 2:6-16 etc. come into play here.

A person might believe their atheist grandfather was a good, kind man. We would not give that person false assurance that God saves people we define as “good” ( Matthew 19:16-19). We would not assume that God does not agree either that maybe this was a “good, kind man.”

 

[ladodgers6]

Just as a basic Orthodox layperson, I believe we basically agree with western Christianity on salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10).

It is the judgment of non believers in which we leave more to God than a more precise definition. We believe the good are saved & the evil condemned ( John 5:24-30 is read in our funeral service). Scriptures like John 15:18-25, Romans 2:6-16 etc. come into play here.

A person might believe their atheist grandfather was a good, kind man. We would not give that person false assurance that God saves people we define as “good” ( Matthew 19:16-19). We would not assume that God does not agree either that maybe this was a “good, kind man.”

This remind me of the interaction between the Rich Young Ruler and Christ. This Young Ruler boasted about his Law keeping to Jesus, but Jesus quickly put that idea of his to bed. Jesus tells him only God is good.

 

[Lukaris]

This remind me of the interaction between the Rich Young Ruler and Christ. This Young Ruler boasted about his Law keeping to Jesus, but Jesus quickly put that idea of his to bed. Jesus tells him only God is good.

I was referring to that very portion in Matthew.

 

[JohnB445]

This is not Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but Semi-Pelagianism, strictly condemned by the Catholic church centuries ago. Faith is a gift of grace, but, as with any gift, it can be rejected. Grace is resistible, IOW. Man is lost; God must initiate everything, so man cannot possibly move himself to say "yes" to God on his own but He can still say "no" to Him at any point. Man's role is to accept and embrace and express the gift, to say yes, and continue to say yes everyday. As such he's cooperating with grace, with God in His work.

Thanks for clarifying, I'm still learning

 

[ladodgers6]

This is not Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but Semi-Pelagianism, strictly condemned by the Catholic church centuries ago. Faith is a gift of grace, but, as with any gift, it can be rejected. Grace is resistible, IOW. Man is lost; God must initiate everything, so man cannot possibly move himself to say "yes" to God on his own but He can still say "no" to Him at any point. Man's role is to accept and embrace and express the gift, to say yes, and continue to say yes everyday. As such he's cooperating with grace, with God in His work.

Do you not see your double talk here. What he give with the left hand you swipe away with the right. First, you say that God must initiate everything, which is ambiguous because it is not effectual in saving anyone. You have either a water down version of the Fall or no fall at all. Which is Pelagian teaching. If Grace is needed to save fallen man, why and how is this Grace applied to the sinner? This is where we started until you went off topic as all do when faced with tough questions.

If this Grace is not effectual in saving the sinner, then what saves them? Their activity? Their little work? Their decision? And if it's a voting thing with you on who one casts their vote; For Satan, Hell, Death, Eternal Punishment or For Christ, Heaven, Life, Eternal Bliss, why would anyone choose the former?​

 

[fhansen]

Do you not see your double talk here. What he give with the left hand you swipe away with the right. First, you say that God must initiate everything, which is ambiguous because it is not effectual in saving anyone. You have either a water down version of the Fall or no fall at all. Which is Pelagian teaching. If Grace is needed to save fallen man, why and how is this Grace applied to the sinner? This is where we started until you went off topic as all do when faced with tough questions.

If this Grace is not effectual in saving the sinner, then what saves them? Their activity? Their little work? Their decision? And if it's a voting thing with you on who one casts their vote; For Satan, Hell, Death, Eternal Punishment or For Christ, Heaven, Life, Eternal Bliss, why would anyone choose the former?

I've told you but you sound like one who doesn't want to know. Grace is the life preserver; man cannot will the life preserver to come to him. God, for your own highest good, doesn't wish to force the life preserver upon you, He wants you choose life, to know the value of grace, the value of Himself, so that you can develop a hunger for it, so you can appreciate who He is (as Adam failed to do) and wish to be like Him in all ways possible while knowing that that can happen only by virtue of fellowship with Him-and not on your own, apart from Him, as Adam aspired to do. That little grace-enabled choice makes you something, and because He loves, because He is love He wants you to be be something. If He wanted to force the life preserver upon you He could've just done that in Eden. If we're all just His puppets at the end of the day then there'd be no reason for hell and the eternal torment that some will experience there. Hell would then simply be an evil act, by God.

We're made in His image and likeness-and that means something. And that image is still buried inside even if we act more like the devil here half the time. God's purpose is to awaken it, to bring it out, to heal us from the attraction to everything but Him that this world seeks to keep us engaged in-and that keeps us separate from Him, the Vine. That idea that the spark of His life still remains within us is not Semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism means that man comes to faith on his own and then the life of grace opens to him. In the ancient teachings grace precedes everything but man can resist grace. But as he doesn't, his true life begins. Again, If you're interested in knowing the truth of those teachings I can help there and it might actually strike up an interesting dialogue instead of the same old repetitive ones. Either way, at the end of the day the role of the human will, however small, cannot be removed from the "equation" without doing violence to the gospel

 

[fhansen]

Thanks for clarifying, I'm still learning

Me too

 

[ladodgers6]

I've told you but you sound like one who doesn't want to know. Grace is the life preserver; man cannot will the life preserver to come to him. God, for your own highest good, doesn't wish to force the life preserver upon you, He wants you choose life, to know the value of grace, the value of Himself, so that you can develop a hunger for it, so you can appreciate who He is (as Adam failed to do) and wish to be like Him in all ways possible while knowing that that can happen only by virtue of fellowship with Him-and not on your own, apart from Him, as Adam aspired to do. That little grace-enabled choice makes you something, and because He loves, because He is love He wants you to be be something. If He wanted to force the life preserver upon you He could've just done that in Eden. If we're all just His puppets at the end of the day then there'd be no reason for hell and the eternal torment that some will experience there. Hell would then simply be an evil act, by God.

We're made in His image and likeness-and that means something. And that image is still buried inside even if we act more like the devil here half the time. God's purpose is to awaken it, to bring it out, to heal us from the attraction to everything but Him that this world seeks to keep us engaged in-and that keeps us separate from Him, the Vine. That idea that the spark of His life still remains within us is not Semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism means that man comes to faith on his own and then the life of grace opens to him. In the ancient teachings grace precedes everything but man can resist grace. But as he doesn't, his true life begins. Again, If you're interested in knowing the truth of those teachings I can help there and it might actually strike up an interesting dialogue instead of the same old repetitive ones. Either way, at the end of the day the role of the human will, however small, cannot be removed from the "equation" without doing violence to the gospel

Like I told you before, I used to be a synergist. You fail to see and understand that a sinner who cannot save him/herself, needs Grace to be saved, but what does this Grace do, is the part you keep dancing around or just cannot define how one is saved by Grace. Let's put it this way.
If I offered a dead man on the street some bread will that help him? If I put the bread in his mouth will that help him? Maybe this dead man just needs water, so if I put water down his throat, will that help him?

Sinners need to be made alive by the Spirit of God. And dead men cannot do that only God can do this divine act. But you refuse to give God all the Glory, and insist God cannot do it by himself. Because it will violate man's will?

For the record, the Bible says we are either slave of sin or slave of righteousness, there's no in between. So, again I ask you how is a sinner saved by God's Grace. Either God changes or regenerated their heart and mind through the proclamation of the Gospel to believe and follow or God doesn't change or regenerate them and hopes they will somehow save themselves without the ability to do so.​

 

[fhansen]

Do you not see your double talk here. What he give with the left hand you swipe away with the right. First, you say that God must initiate everything, which is ambiguous because it is not effectual in saving anyone. You have either a water down version of the Fall or no fall at all. Which is Pelagian teaching. If Grace is needed to save fallen man, why and how is this Grace applied to the sinner? This is where we started until you went off topic as all do when faced with tough questions.

If this Grace is not effectual in saving the sinner, then what saves them? Their activity? Their little work? Their decision? And if it's a voting thing with you on who one casts their vote; For Satan, Hell, Death, Eternal Punishment or For Christ, Heaven, Life, Eternal Bliss, why would anyone choose the former?​

I don't need to water down anything, just report the facts as they are so people can know what it is they're dealing with regarding God's revelation and will. It's very simple, you have an obligation, and you're now equipped to fulfill it, you're obligated to put to death the deeds of the flesh, for example by walking in the Spirit, in order to have eternal life. That's not my word, that's God's word. To put it best, you're obligated to love, as He has loved you. That's not a bad obligation, even if in the flesh we prefer no obligation at all, which was essentially the sin of Adam to begin with. But God didn't leave us alone with that harmful preference or abandon us, rather He's been patiently working with us down through the centuries to bring us to the point where we might actually embrace the light over the darkness, and grow firmer and stronger in that. That's the road you need to be on, not perfect sinlessness in this life but overcoming sin rather than it overcoming you. You're obligated to love, by His grace, and that's more than sufficient to be overcoming sin as love excludes sin by its nature. And that's the one thing that would definitively heal this world as well

 

[fhansen]

Like I told you before, I used to be a synergist.

There's still hope for you.

You fail to see and understand that a sinner who cannot save him/herself, needs Grace to be saved, but what does this Grace do, is the part you keep dancing around or just cannot define how one is saved by Grace.

Um, no, I've done quite well at it. I'm not able to open one's ears for them, however.

But you refuse to give God all the Glory, and insist God cannot do it by himself. Because it will violate man's will?

No, I insist that He won't do it by Himself because He doesn't wish to violate man's will, for your highest good.

For the record, the Bible says we are either slave of sin or slave of righteousness, there's no in between.

Actually Rom 6, as well as other places in the bible, warns us to remain a slave to righteousness as slavery to sin results in death.

 

[ladodgers6]

I don't need to water down anything, just report the facts as they are so people can know what it is they're dealing with regarding God's revelation and will. It's very simple, you have an obligation, and you're now equipped to fulfill it, you're obligated to put to death the deeds of the flesh, for example by walking in the Spirit, in order to have eternal life.

Don't you see your mistake? The obligation to walk in the Spirit is for believers, not sinners who are not saved, justified before God. How can any sinner provide these obligations without having been reconciled first through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law? As, I have said before you are conflating, confusing and distorting the Gospel for the ungodly. No sinner can provide anything to God; just like the Pharisee who thought he was a godly man, but Jesus put that to rest very quickly, by calling him a white wash tomb filled with deadman bones. Jesus also said it's not what goes in man that defiles him, but out come out of him that defiles a man. Basically saying it's the fallen heart of man made of stone, that fails him. So, the heart must be removed and be given a heart of flesh, that is alive to serve God. But this is God'd doing, man cannot change who he is, anymore than a leopard can change his spots.​

That's not my word, that's God's word. To put it best, you're obligated to love, as He has loved you. That's not a bad obligation, even if in the flesh we prefer no obligation at all, which was essentially the sin of Adam to begin with. But God didn't leave us alone with that harmful preference or abandon us, rather He's been patiently working with us down through the centuries to bring us to the point where we might actually embrace the light over the darkness, and grow firmer and stronger in that. That's the road you need to be on, not perfect sinlessness in this life but overcoming sin rather than it overcoming you. You're obligated to love, by His grace, and that's more than sufficient to be overcoming sin as love excludes sin by its nature. And that's the one thing that would definitively heal this world as well​

Yes, we are to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbors as ourselves. But again this is a commandment for believers, who trust and believe in Christ for who He is and what He has done for us first. You are again talking about sanctification of the saints.

I am talking about on how a sinner is saved and justified before God. But you keep referring to works, because even the evangelical works of the believer is not the cause but the effects of Salvation in the risen Christ!

 

[fhansen]

Don't you see your mistake? The obligation to walk in the Spirit is for believers

Of course, as I have constantly maintained. Unbelievers don’t have the HS. So…if a believer, once justified, isn’t putting to death the deeds of the flesh: sin, then he’s compromised his state of justice. The error of the Reformers is in thinking that justification means only an aquittal, a declaration of righteousness, essentially the forgiveness of sin. But it’s more than that, it’s to be made just, new creations with a new spirit and new heart. That’s to be under grace, and righteousness flows from that grace as long as we remain in Him, the source of grace, of life. If sin overcomes us instead, we’re not in Him.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, we are to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbors as ourselves. But again this is a commandment for believers, who trust and believe in Christ for who He is and what He has done for us first. You are again talking about sanctification of the saints.

I’m talking about what it means to be just, right, in the eyes of God. Again, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

 

[ladodgers6]

Of course, as I have constantly maintained. Unbelievers don’t have the HS. So…if a believer, once justified, isn’t putting to death the deeds of the flesh: sin, then he’s compromised his state of justice.

It's like pulling teeth. So, now that you understand me, and we both agree that sinners will not walk in the Spirit because they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So, we are right back where we started. How is a sinner saved or justified without first having the Spirit in your position?

The error of the Reformers is in thinking that justification means only an aquittal, a deceleration of righteousness, essentially the forgiveness of sin. But it’s more than that, it’s to be made just, new creations with a new spirit and new heart. That’s to be under grace, and righteousness flows from that grace as long as we remain in Him, the source of grace, of life. If sin overcomes us instead, we’re not in Him.

So, you are suggesting to establish your own righteousness? Look fhansen, you need to understand what is being promised and given in the Gospel. The Gospel is not a to do list to get saved. It's way too late for sinners to do anything to save themselves. This is why they are called sinners. They are on death row awaiting execution. There is absolutely nothing they can do, even if they are model inmates won't make a difference. The sentence has been handed down; guilty as charged. The gas chamber or lethal injection is inevitable.

But here's what you are getting wrong, not one time do I see you write, that it is Christ who comes and saves sinners from this curse of the Law. He takes our place as a guilty sinner who knows no sin and receives the sinners death and punishment in our place. What does this mean to you? Why does Christ have to do this? And the sinner who Christ dies for, receives His perfect Righteousness and holiness through Faith Alone apart from any works. You skip this for whatever reason, thinking that your works are better. That Christ's works given freely to those who believe is not enough? The reason justified sinners start to walk in the newness of life is because of Christ and His finished works. The works of believers flow from this true living vine , that is Christ. But you fail to see this, why?​

 

[ladodgers6]

I’m talking about what it means to be just, right, in the eyes of God. Again, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

No Sir, you keep trying to find hope, assurance, life by what we do. This is called legalism; a works-based religion. For whatever reason you are stuck on the Law, as if the Gospel Grace is not sufficient. Here lies the problem. There is no place in the Law for sinners or believers to be justified before God by what we do or will ever do. Do you not understand that for this very reason is why we need a Redeemer? God provides everything we need in His Son. Christ came to do His Father's Will. To fulfill His Father's Promise. Grace sir is never earned or merited by sinners or believers. It was Gracious given to the ungodly who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly.

Once we are declared righteous not by our inherent righteousness for there is none, but by the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us, that clothes us like a white robe. Here sir is where we will be judged. But you ought to know that once the ungodly sinner is declared righteous in Christ through Faith Alone, that every moment they have been already judged and a verdict has been declared.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
​

Right now Paul says no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. You instead are looking for your works to carry you through, good luck with that. Here Paul brings the eschatological judgement seat to the present time. Where the judgement is passed upon those ungodly sinner who trust in Him who justifies the ungodly, and announces that there is NOW no condemnation.

I strongly suggest you take your time, and read more about God's Grace and His promise to redeem sinners. Instead of trying to find assurance in fallen works of sinners and believers. Instead always look to Christ and His finished works.

 

[fhansen]

Ok, so between family illness and demanding work I've been out of commission-sorry it's apparent you're still in need of edification. I missed this one earlier:

Is this all you have to say about Original Sin?

What I said was more than enough.

 

[fhansen]

It's like pulling teeth. So, now that you understand me, and we both agree that sinners will not walk in the Spirit because they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So, we are right back where we started. How is a sinner saved or justified without first having the Spirit in your position?

For over two thousand years church has taught that the working of the Holy Spirit in us from beginning to end is essential to our salvation. First He knocks, then He enters as we open the door. His indwelling is our salvation. And yet we can also walk away from that vital life-giving relationship.

So, you are suggesting to establish your own righteousness?

Where does that even follow from what I said? I've said over and over that it's His righteousness in us now, the real thing that we were made for from the beginning but which Adam forfeited when he decided to go with his own, so called "righteousness", apart from God. And you at least already believe this is possible if you believe in sanctification.

This is why they are called sinners. They are on death row awaiting execution. There is absolutely nothing they can do, even if they are model inmates won't make a difference. The sentence has been handed down; guilty as charged. The gas chamber or lethal injection is inevitable.

Yes, and Jesus frees us from this condemnation by making us "slaves to righteousness" instead of "slaves to sin" as we turn to Him, as we turn back to the God we spurned in Eden, IOW.

But here's what you are getting wrong, not one time do I see you write, that it is Christ who comes and saves sinners from this curse of the Law. He takes or place as a guilty sinner who knows no sin and receives the sinners death and punishment in our place. What does this mean to you? Why does Christ have to do this?

To win forgiveness of your sins, and also to take sin away. To wash and cleanse you, to reconcile you with the Father and to give you His life now within, freed from the alienation from God that Adam instituted in Eden. Now you are a new creation, no longer in slavery to sin, able to live as children of God should!!!!!! Which means no condemnation!!!!! Do you think He did all that He did, do you think that He washed you from your sins, just that you could remain dirty, so that you could remain in your sins?

The works of believers flow from this true living vine , that is Christ. But you fail to see this, why?

Have you read anything I wrote? This has been my constant refrain. Your error is in thinking that some one-time act of belief makes you eternally saved rather than marking the beginning of a walk where one must continue to live in the holiness, in the faith, hope, and love now given us. To express it and grow in it rather than returning to the flesh and allowing sin to overcome us and destroy that vital relationship all over again.

 

[fhansen]

This is called legalism; a works-based religion.

Legalism is to think that mere works of the law, the external observance of the law, can make us just, righteous. But nothing could be further from the truth. Only God, relationship with Him, can make us righteous. Only He can justify the ungodly. With Him we can do all things.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

 

[fhansen]

Once we are declared righteous not by our inherent righteousness for there is none, but by the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us, that clothes us like a white robe. Here sir is where we will be judged. But you ought to know that once the ungodly sinner is declared righteous in Christ through Faith Alone, that every moment they have been already judged and a verdict has been declared.

This is nonsense, anti-gospel. The truth is that, at justification, we would be heaven-bound if we were to die- due to the cleansing and free gift of real righteous now given us, that we're now adorned with. If we were allowed to live longer and were to seriously compromise that state of cleanliness, that state of grace, that state of justice, we would be accountable for that. Again, the new covenant is not about a reprieve from the penalty for all future sins, but about the freedom from sin and the ability to overcome sin now, with Him. That's what keeps us free from the penalty of sin. To the extent that we return to the flesh we are no longer with Him, walking in the Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

This remind me of the interaction between the Rich Young Ruler and Christ. This Young Ruler boasted about his Law keeping to Jesus, but Jesus quickly put that idea of his to bed. Jesus tells him only God is good.

Yes, and He is where our goodness comes from. He certainty didn't create us to be bad. So Jesus also said to the rich young ruler,
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

With God, one may keep the commandments, the commandments which only testify to true righteousness, without even hearing them, let alone being under the law.