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SALVATION

Mark Quayle

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Mark Quayle said:
Now if you can present for me that the command to be without sin implies the ability to obey that command, have at it.
Sanctification is to be made holy. And yet you posed the challenge:
I presented verses that show that sin can and must be overcome. John seems to imply that we must be completely sinless while the church in any case came to reject such an extreme rigorist view- as pertaining to a possibility in this life, anyway. Perfection must nonetheless be the goal, however; that's the journey we must be on. And so why would you ask nonsensical questions if you know that sanctification is necessary in order to gain eternal life? You're too intelligent not to get the point even if you disagree with it. But I'm not sure you do
Justification is needed 'for eternal life'. Not Sanctification.

John does not imply that we must be completely sinless, but what has that to do with the question of free will in Salvation and Justification?

You keep slipping in and out of the question of free will in Salvation.

What questions were 'nonsensical'?
 
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Mark Quayle

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UGH. You inserted the word "elect" to suit an erroneous limited atonement viewpoint. God didn't put that word there, however. He loves the world, He loves man, lavishly, whom He created good, in His own image, He knows our potential and He seeks to have us fulfill it. Some will, some won't; that's what we know.
To whom is he talking? And to whom is the promise made?
 
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fhansen

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Mark Quayle said:
Where does Scripture say, "He values the gift of freedom He's given us so much that He's willing to allow the abuse of that freedom even as it results in evil, for a time, for His purpose." ?

Are you not familiar with the different ways the term, "God's will", and the like, are used in Scripture? I know of at least two easily distinct uses: 1. God's command (and exhortations and such); 2. God's plans, or as the Reformed like to say, his decree.

Where is this mentioning more than simple choice? I don't deny choice.

How does that show free will?

How does that, or in almost every, verse, say that "He values the gift of freedom He's given us..." It doesn't mention the gift of freedom, nor does it assume it. All you are showing is choice —not free will.

Irrelevant
Choice implies the freedom to decide between two or more possibilities. Some choices are easy, some are very difficult, with conflicting motivations and desires involved. In John 15, Jesus presents us with the option, of remaining in Him, or not. Unless for the freedom to go either way, there's no reason for Him to even give such options and warnings.
Irrelevant
Only if your comment about structure was irrelevant to begin with.
 
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Clare73

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You believe that the New Birth is Eternal Life, and into Eternal Life, by the indwelling Spirit; yet, we receive Eternal Life by faith, not so we can believe. And we receive the Spirit by Faith to give us spiritual life.
Clare73 said: eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.
Clare73 said:
Rebirth of/by the Holy Spirit is into eternal life. . .therefore rebirth of/by the Spirit is eternal life.
When do we receive the Paraclete?

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).
Clare73 said:
Faith/justification/salvation/eternal life are the simultaneous effects of the new birth, which is only by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:7-8)
Clare73 said: We are spiritually dead until the new birth into eternal life.
John 3:36 (NIV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
In complete agreement with what I stated. . .the new birth into eternal life is what he has, which gives him to believe.
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out [to the crowds that formed on the Greatest Day], “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
To "come to me" is to believe (Jn 6:35), whereupon streams of living water (Holy Spirit whom they were later to receive, v.39) will flow from within him, as seen on Pentecost.

"Were to receive," being the spiritual empowerment of Pentecost to take the gospel to the world.
 
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fhansen

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I exactly knows what that means. It's a man-made religion and a lofty view of man, where fallen man can boast about something.
No, you don't know what it means. And when you do learn something you'll know that your theology is man-made or at least man-modified from the original. But until then you'll probably stay in your preferences rather than be open to further exploring the truth.
 
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fhansen

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You mean like the Apostle Peter is the 1st Pope of the RCC, and the sprinkling of holy water at infant baptism for salvation is an example of the "fullest and truest understanding." Even in the 21st century there is still corruption in the Vatican. That is supposedly one reason why Pope Francis didn't want his residence to be in the Vatican.

If as you say that the RCC has the "fullest and truest understanding" then why was it necessary for Luther to prepare a 95 page thesis outlining the manmade corruption (sin) within the RCC. And don't give us some flimsy excuse that Luther was deranged.

IMO it's all to obvious that its the impressive manmade pretense of religious decorum and wealth of the worldwide RCC that favorably impressed you more than the not so stellar history of the RCC ...

On Oct. 31, 1517, an obscure German professor of theology named Martin Luther launched an attack on the Roman Catholic Church by nailing his 95 Theses to the door of Wittenberg’s Castle Church — a story that has been repeated for hundreds of years.​
In 1961, Erwin Iserloh, a Catholic Luther researcher, argued that there was no evidence that Luther actually nailed his 95 Theses to the Castle Church door. Indeed, at the 1617 celebration of the Reformation, Luther was depicted as writing the 95 Theses on the church door with a quill pen.
What’s not in dispute: Luther mailed his attack on the Catholic sale of indulgences to the archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, Albert of Brandenburg, on Oct. 31, 1517. The indulgences were meant to assure their buyer that their sins would be forgiven — a form of corruption in Luther's eyes. Luther remained a Catholic never becoming a Lutheran as some believe. However, some Lutherans still have infant (sprinkling) baptisms. One Lutheran pastor made the comment that he didn't see anything wrong with using grape flavored Kool Aid as a sacrament.​
Afterall the LDS uses only water. One reason given was so if a man happens to spill (dribble) the sacrement it won't stain his white shirt; whereas grape juice will. At one time they made grape juice (wine) from their own vineyards, but as the church membership grew they couldn't keep up with the demand. Also it was during prohibition when alcohol was illegal. Thomas Bramwell Welch was a dentist and Methodist minister so the 12 ruling apostiles of the LDS decided they couldn't use Welch's (patented) Grape Juice for their sacrament.​
Decorum, LOL? It's obvious to you? What could you possibly know, aside from how to be presumptuous, apparently. I don't even like medieval garb or ritual for that matter. But what I like is knowing that God's church has consistently taught the truth for 20 some centuries.

While God's people certainly should be godly, if you want to find perfect, sinless people, don't look within the human population because wherever you find even one human you will find imperfection. For all of us here on earth perfection is a relative quality. Luther was justified in his objection to scandal in the church, but he wasn't justified in his revision of the doctrine of justification. He wasn't justified in changing doctrine in other words. God has protected his church from error in those teachings, despite human weakness, limitations, and sinfulness. That's the only way it can be.

So the teachings are the treasure of the church, nothing else, nothing physical for sure. And if the basic doctrine on justification-what is necessary in order to be right in the eyes of God-is right, then the peripheral teachings are less relevant at that point. It begins with that, we need to get that right, and Luther accurately believed that the doctrine of justification was the crux of the Reformation, what it hung on, why it was necessary. And he was right. If they got that one wrong, which they did, then while renewal and conversion are always necessary within the church, including within its leaders, the Reformation for the purpose of changing doctrine did way more harm than good. And that's why it's important to know what the basics of Catholic teaching on this subject really are if one is going to have valid objections.
 
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setst777

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In complete agreement with what I stated. . .the new birth into eternal life is what he has, which gives him to believe.

Eternal Life is by faith in Lord Jesus. That is the Good News of the Gospel (John 3:14-16; 1 Timothy 1:16).

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

To "come to me" is to believe (Jn 6:35), whereupon streams of living water (Holy Spirit whom they were later to receive, v.39) will flow from within him, as seen on Pentecost.

The streams of living water (the Holy Spirit) welling up inside of us is the New Birth, and is by faith, not so you can believe (John 7:37-39).
 
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fhansen

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Really doubt you could ever really explain "true Catholic doctrine" other than being your theology opinion. So why did you think it necessary when you are unable to even answer my question ..
I can explain it as well as demonstrate its foundations. But, perhaps to encapsulate, this teaching sums it up best.
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

You are obligated to love, in response to the love that God has shown you. That's what makes you who you were created to be, That's why you're here, to come to know and to fellowship with Him so that you may become like Him and be with Him. That's the essence of your salvation.

A friend recently told me that if you hang out with drug users you'll eventually become a user too. It's who you hang out with. And turning to God in faith is a turning away from the world and the attractions, the sin, that it offers, and jumping on board with Him instead.

And It's a challenge, a struggle, a battle, to come to increasingly value Him and so to draw nearer to Him, and away from our flesh, throughout our lives. It's not just some one-time act of faith but a continuous one where you pick up your cross daily and follow, doing His will to the best you can with the ever-present help of His grace, with all you've been given by Him. And the more you do His will, the more yet that He gives.

As far as baptism, Jesus both modeled it and commanded it, and that's how the church received it at the beginning. The church, in both the east and west, has never known any other way but to baptize as a formal means of entering God's fold as we turn to Him in faith. In fact, baptism is known as the "sacrament of faith".

Can it be done mechanically, legalistically, without faith, without the proper disposition? Yes, of course, anything can be when humans are involved, including altar calls. As far as infants are concerned, that's another practice that goes back to the beginning with the understanding that there's a corporate aspect to salvation where we're used in each others walk. The faith of the family and community are said to stand in for the infant until they reach the age of reason and can then confirm or deny their baptismal vows for themselves. Other denominations also hold to this view.

And that brings up another point. Just as people who hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura have been disagreeing with each other on this very thread, others, based on Scripture alone, have disagreed all day long since the Reformation on issues such as baptismal regeneration and infant baptism, resulting in more splintering and schisms yet. Luther actually predicted, and worried, that such could occur once that door was opened.

Can God save without the benefit of baptism? Of course He can. But, again, the more we know, the more accountable we will be for our actions- so we do what He says, when we know it.
 
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Clare73

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Eterrnal Life is by faith in Lord Jesus. That is the Good News of the Gospel (John 3:14-16; 1 Timothy 1:16).
Yes, if Jesus be not lifted up, there is no salvation, faith, eternal life, sanctification nor human resurrection.

The good news is "Whoever believes in the Son of Man is not condemned," (Jn 3:18) which is the remedy for the bad news of

"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already" (Jn 3:18).
 
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fhansen

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Justification is needed 'for eternal life'. Not Sanctification.
Again, they're the same thing. Rom 6 from beginning to end tells you that you can be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness with the former leading to death and the latter, sanctification, leading to eternal life.
 
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fhansen

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You keep slipping in and out of the question of free will in Salvation.
There are two questions involved in this.
1) Whether or not man must achieve some level of righteousness, including the overcoming of sin, in order to enter eternal life

2) Whether or not man's will, his effort, his cooperation, is involved in this process, whether he can turn back away again, IOW
 
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fhansen

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Are you not familiar with the different ways the term, "God's will", and the like, are used in Scripture? I know of at least two easily distinct uses: 1. God's command (and exhortations and such); 2. God's plans, or as the Reformed like to say, his decree.
As Augustine put it, "God does not command what is impossible for man to obey." That would be rather dishonest anyway.

Man can obey, but only as he remains in communion with God, where we're meant to be. That's a main point of the New Covenant, "Apart from Me you can do nothing."
 
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setst777

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Yes, if Jesus be not lifted up, there is no salvation, faith, eternal life, sanctification nor human resurrection.

The good news is "Whoever believes in the Son of Man is not condemned," (Jn 3:18) which is the remedy for the bad news of

"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already" (Jn 3:18).

The Good News of the Gospel is those who believe in Lord Jesus are not judged, but rather, they "may have" or "should have" Eternal Life in the Son. We are saved from God's wrath onto life by faith.

You don't live forever so you can eat the bread; rather you eat the bread so you can live forever.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

John 6:58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven — not as our fathers ate the manna, and died. He who eats this bread will live forever.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart, one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation.

John 3:14-15 (ESV) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:9], so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that "whoever believes" [Subject] in him may have Eternal Life. [present subjunctive active participle]

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.
  1. Just as whoever was looking at the serpent raised on the stake would live.
  2. So too, when we look to Lord Jesus, believing in him, we are given life.
John 3:16 (ESV) 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that "whoever believes" [Subject] in him should not perish but [rather] have Eternal Life. [present subjunctive active participle]

In Greek (as in English) the “subjunctive mood” expresses a possibility or a consequence when or if a condition is met. Therefore, having [possessing] eternal life is a consequence of the condition: “whoever believes in him

"John 3:15" and "John 3:16"

  1. The subject in both John 3:15 and John 3:16 is: "Whoever believes [in him]."
  2. The subjects both John 3:15 and John 3:16 are followed by a present participle active subjunctive.

Function in the Sentence:

  • The participle “πιστεύων” describes the subject, “everyone who believes [in him].”
  • The subjunctive verb “ἔχῃ” expresses the potential or desired outcome, “may have eternal life.”

Translation and Meaning:

  • The construction “ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον” translates to “that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
  • The subjunctive mood here indicates a purpose or result clause, showing the intended outcome of believing in Jesus.

Theological Implication:

  • This verse emphasizes the importance of faith in Jesus as the means to attain eternal life. The use of the subjunctive mood highlights the potential and hope for eternal life for those who believe.


1 Timothy 1:16 (ESV) 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

Romans 3:25 (ESV) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

John 20:30-31 (ESV) 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have Life in his name.
 
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Clare73

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The Good News of the Gospel is those who believe in Lord Jesus are not judged, but rather, they "may have" or "should have" Eternal Life in the Son. We are saved from God's wrath onto life by faith.

You don't live forever so you can eat the bread; rather you eat the bread so you can live forever.
Yes, salvation is the result of faith, not the cause of it.
"You are saved. . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, these are not works of righteousness; rather, this is the sinner's plea to be saved by the Righteous One.
Are they not by effort of the will?
 
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Clare73

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Again, they're the same thing. Rom 6 from beginning to end tells you that you can be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness with the former leading to death and the latter, sanctification, leading to eternal life.
No, justification and sanctification are not the same thing.

Justification is the imputation of (forensic) righteousness as the result of sin being forgiven by faith, while
sanctification is the actual righteousness of obedience in the Holy Spirit.
 
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concretecamper

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Augustine of Hippo

Do we then make void freedom of choice through grace? God forbid! Rather, we establish freedom of choice. As the law is not made void by faith, so freedom of choice is not made void but established by grace. Freedom of choice is necessary to the fulfillment of the law. But by the law comes the knowledge of sin; by faith comes the obtaining of grace against sin; by grace comes the healing of the soul from sin’s sickness; by the healing of the soul comes freedom of choice; by freedom of choice comes the love of righteousness; by the love of righteousness comes the working of the law. Thus, as the law is not made void but established by faith, since faith obtains the grace whereby the law may be fulfilled, so freedom of choice is not made void but established by grace, since grace heals the will whereby righteousness may freely be loved.
 
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setst777

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Are they not by effort of the will?

According to all the Scriptures, because of the Gospel proclamation, we are to repent, come to, drink from, believe in, Lord Jesus to be saved.
 
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setst777

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Yes, salvation is the result of faith, not the cause of it.
"You are saved. . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)

Finally you understand. It took a while, by I always hoped, in the end, you would finally see.

Blessings.
 
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