The husband of our vice president is telling men to "step up" to defend the right to kill a child. Real men will see through this evil charade.

[RileyG]

What exactly is your proposal to do this?

Banning abortion in most cases except to save the life of the mother.

 

[KCfromNC]

Nope! They made their decision to have sex and consequences follow afterwards.

If it was actually an inevitable consequence of sex, there wouldn't be any need for big government anti-abortion laws.

 

[KCfromNC]

Banning abortion in most cases except to save the life of the mother.

An extremely quick departure from "I'm not trying to force anything", I see.

 

[RileyG]

An extremely quick departure from "I'm not trying to force anything", I see.

Not wanting to force people to kill others is bad? Odd.

 

[RileyG]

If it was actually an inevitable consequence of sex, there wouldn't be any need for big government anti-abortion laws.

That's literally how new life is made. Biology 101.

 

[stevil]

Not wanting to force people to kill others is bad? Odd.

You must understand, that it is very hard for most people to consider a fertilised egg as being "others" or "people".
It is really some idealistic stretch. Rather than some understanding of reality.

 

[RileyG]

You must understand, that it is very hard for most people to consider a fertilised egg as being "others" or "people".
It is really some idealistic stretch. Rather than some understanding of reality.

It has a separate DNA form its mother. It's a person in the earliest form of development.

I don't accept anything less.

 

[stevil]

I am not being self-righteous for being pro-life or believing abortion is wrong.

I have no problems with your beliefs. You can believe what you want.

They are threats to other people when they kill the most innocent. I cannot support that.

No, a fertilised egg is not "other people". You don't have to support it. No one is asking you to support it.
You don't need to donate money to an abortion clinic, you don't need to hand out pamphlets to promote abortion clinics.

No one will worry if you oppose it. If you do peaceful protesting or if you hand out pamphlets opposing it.

I am not "punishing" anyone.

You become a threat when you give the govt the power to imprison people for making their own choices.
When your support forces young children who have suffered rape, to then endure pregnancy and giving birth to the rapist's child.
When your support forces couples struggling to conceive, to no longer have the opportunity of IVF. This is punishing people. These are your victims.

Be careful, calling names such as "own self righteous blood lust" can be seen as goading.

I am not trying to name call or goad you.
I am trying to point out, that a person having an abortion does not impact you in the slightest. That you are upset because you see people doing things that you deem "wrong". You just want to satisfy yourself, and in doing so you are greatly punishing people who have to live with the consequences of not being able to have an abortion, or the consequences of not being able to use IVF. Their lives are impacted greatly. Your life is not impacted at all.

Odd, you are passing judgment on me for being pro-life.

I am not passing judgement on you. I am trying to point out
1. You are forcing your morality onto others
2. You are greatly and detrimentally impacting the lives of others
3. You personally have very little to gain from stopping others from making important life altering decisions.
4. Why do you feel YOU are best to decide the choices of strangers?

 

[stevil]

It has a separate DNA form its mother. It's a person in the earliest form of development.

I don't accept anything less.

Yes, it has seperate DNA. But it is not a person.
When an egg is first fertilised, it is a single cell. Eventually it is a cluster of cells, Eventually yet is starts to take form, Eventually yet it starts to have a heart beat, Eventually yet it starts to have a functioning brain.

You have determined that a single cell, a fertilised egg is a person.
Give me a break.

 

[RileyG]

I have no problems with your beliefs. You can believe what you want.

No, a fertilised egg is not "other people". You don't have to support it. No one is asking you to support it.
You don't need to donate money to an abortion clinic, you don't need to hand out pamphlets to promote abortion clinics.

No one will worry if you oppose it. If you do peaceful protesting or if you hand out pamphlets opposing it.


You become a threat when you give the govt the power to imprison people for making their own choices.
When your support forces young children who have suffered rape, to then endure pregnancy and giving birth to the rapist's child.
When your support forces couples struggling to conceive, to no longer have the opportunity of IVF. This is punishing people. These are your victims.

I am not trying to name call or goad you.
I am trying to point out, that a person having an abortion does not impact you in the slightest. That you are upset because you see people doing things that you deem "wrong". You just want to satisfy yourself, and in doing so you are greatly punishing people who have to live with the consequences of not being able to have an abortion, or the consequences of not being able to use IVF. Their lives are impacted greatly. Your life is not impacted at all.

I am not passing judgement on you. I am trying to point out
1. You are forcing your morality onto others
2. You are greatly and detrimentally impacting the lives of others
3. You personally have very little to gain from stopping others from making important life altering decisions.
4. Why do you feel YOU are best to decide the choices of strangers?

To be blunt, it affects SOMEONE ELSE, the unborn child.

No innocent person deserves to die.

Period.

And by the way, I was only referring to consensual sex.

 

[RileyG]

Yes, it has seperate DNA. But it is not a person.
When an egg is first fertilised, it is a single cell. Eventually it is a cluster of cells, Eventually yet is starts to take form, Eventually yet it starts to have a heart beat, Eventually yet it starts to have a functioning brain.

You have determined that a single cell, a fertilised egg is a person.
Give me a break.

Yes, it is a person.

I'm aware of how biology works, thank you very much.

 

[stevil]

And by the way, I was only referring to consensual sex.

So do you think it is OK to kill the fertilised egg after rape?

Do you think the morning after pill should be legal for people that have been raped?

 

[Hammster]

I've never made any blanket judgement as to whether abortion is right or wrong.

I don't think it is government's place to decide what is right or wrong.

Then why are there so many who want laws to legalize abortion?

I think it is upto the pregnant woman to decide if she is going to have an abortion or not.

But you don’t even know if abortion is right or wrong. What if it is wrong?

She can try to make a moral judgement, is it morally right for me to have this abortion. But she doesn't have to.

But we aren’t talking about her decision. We are talking about whether abortion is right or wrong.

She can make the choice based on economics, or based on her personal situation e.g. I'm young, not married, I just don't want to have a child.
It's upto her, her decision, based on whatever criteria she wants to use.

If that’s the case, why stop there? Why not have the same choice until her children reach 18?

I personally don't care if it’s morally right or morally wrong, I don't think that is relevant.

And yet here you are defending a woman’s right to have one.

 

[Hammster]

I'll worry about it when posts can actually identify a case in which I do so.

You just did.

 

[RileyG]

So do you think it is OK to kill the fertilised egg after rape?

Do you think the morning after pill should be legal for people that have been raped?

Per the forum rules, I don't think I can answer that.

Have a lovely day

 

[Hammster]

An extremely quick departure from "I'm not trying to force anything", I see.

Do you have any sort of desire to prevent people from stealing from you?

 

[RileyG]

Do you have any sort of desire to prevent people from stealing from you?

EXACTLY! Not wanting other people's rights violated isn't "forcing" anyone.

 

[Hammster]

So do you think it is OK to kill the fertilised egg after rape?

Do you think the morning after pill should be legal for people that have been raped?

No. The baby shouldn’t be punished for a crime he or she didn’t commit.

 

[RileyG]

No. The baby shouldn’t be punished for a crime he or she didn’t commit.

Furthermore, I 100% agree with this statement.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No. The baby shouldn’t be punished for a crime he or she didn’t commit.

@Hammster and @RileyG, this is where my train stops.

Most folks take into account the fact that people, particularly women, are victimized every day and they shouldn't have to endure further psychological victimization.

Of course, I may be biased since my own mother was raped at the age of 5 by three teenage boys. While she obviously couldn't have been impregnated, I sometimes ponder what would have happened to her fragile state of mind if it had instead happened at the age of 15.

So, unless you're professionals in the area of human psychology and well-being, I think we need to infuse our theological appraisal of the abortion problem holistically with the entirety of what Christ wants us to apply in an interdisciplinary, multi-faceted and mindful approach. That way, our attempts to propose and uphold all that is Holy in our faith aren't undermined by contradictions that come as a failure to apply mercy, grace, compassion, understanding and love for those who are truly victims.