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Again I have asked you. Since you believe man cannot be saved without God's Grace, but you insist God does not violate man's will; meaning it's not effectual, then what is the cause of man's salvation?
Man's consent is meaningless without something to consent to, which is God's grace. Man's salvation, IOW, is impossible without grace. Doing good, being obedient, means nothing: man must be established into fellowship with God first of all and man wouldn't even know where to look for God; man is lost. God must come to him and inform, and knock, and call, and draw, and prompt.
And where do you get this? I've said just the opposite-over and over. God, alone, justifies, and certainly not the law.
You're not understanding Rom 5. Through Adam man became genuinely unrighteous, sinful, not merely declared to be unrighteous. So if "imputed" is the correct word to use it must be understood in that light. Therefore, through Christ man now becomes genuinely righteous, not merely declared to be righteous. It's truly a "FREE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS". The righteousness of God is not based on the law (Phil 3:9) while the law is nonetheless based on this righteousness-which is why it can rightfully be said that the law and the prophets testify to this righteousness (Rom 3:20).
No, "all" we have is the Holy Spirt working within us to the extent that we remain in Him. BTW, the Holy Spirit, grace, and love are all intrinsically linked in Catholic understanding. With Him all things are possible, including having a righteousness that surpasses that of the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law. He didn't come to abolish the law, meaning its still in effect. He fulfills it and we follow now in fulfilling it, but the right way, the authentic way, His way, not by virtue of being under the law but under grace. So, you still haven't answered my question: "Can a believer persistently, wantonly, commit grave sin and still make it into heaven?
There's no boasting because man does not/cannot justify himself by works of the law- or by any other means, Only God can make man just, can make man righteous:
And yet:
I thought you just said that I denied this. Anyway, grace is resistible-and why not? The alternative is that God's amazing “irresistible” grace is targeted at only some, that He wants some to perish after all, that he created some for the sole purpose of experiencing eternal torment-eternal-without regard to their choice in the matter. Truly amazing. What a god.
Grace and our cooperation with it. Again, you're drowning and someone throws you a life preserver. You don't throw yourself the life preserver, you don't generate the life preserver, the life preserver is not intrinsic to you. But without it you will drown. God gives you sufficient grace to say, "yes", but you can still say "no". And that's where justice/righteousness enters the scene. Because faith, hope, and love are all gifts, but gifts that we can reject. To the extent that we accept and express and act upon them, our justice/righteousness takes root and begins to blossom. Abraham was declared righteous because faith in God really is the first right thing a man can do. That faith, itself, was a gift of grace-so it's all a work of God's, but a patient work. He's still creating, something noble and grand, something like Himself, something greater than He began with as we participate in that creating. Jesus is the first-born of creation. He's the true way to godliness, without which we have no life. Take the time to re-read Colossians. It's both encouragement-and a warning-to continue to remain in Him and follow Him in His ways.
God wouldn’t have given man the freedom to disobey Him if He didn’t want that faculty to be used correctly, rather than abused. Have you ever walked with a drug addict on their path to recovery? It doesn’t happen by magic, overnight, even though much prayer is part of the struggle to overcome that slavery in my experience. What “happens” to them is they get sick of their lives, like a prodigal who becomes jaded by the pigsty that he’s in. Now, when they begin to want a better life, they become more malleable clay. Grace is magic in a sense, but God does not wish to overwhelm and heal this world all at once. We struggle in order to come to see clearer and clearer His wisdom and our need for it, for Him, even though He obviously could change things all at once-and even though that would immediately end all of the human misery experienced in this life. And the more we do struggle, and the more we accept and act upon His magic, His grace, then the more convicted we become and the surer our calling and election will be- as we draw nearer to Him and grow in His likeness, IOW. God wants us to experience sin and death- for a reason. It’s to help elicit that “yes”, that agreement with Him, that faith while understanding why it's so important, so crucial. That’s how it works in real life.
Why did Adam disobey? The same reason and pressures exist today -even though the choice for disobedience is irrational. Again, God's purpose is to move us away from that wrong choice. Why did the one thief on the cross make the right choice while the other didn't-they both had Jesus right there in their faces. Pride is always lurking, always the main culprit that separates us from God:
That's where grace comes in. Some will respond while others won't-that's what we know. Man didn't inherit a sin nature at the Fall, as if something were added to him. He didn't become bad so much as he lost something, which made him wounded, sick, lost, and woefully unable to maintain his moral integrity; something was missing. And that "something" is God, apart from who we can do nothing, apart from whom we have no life.
No, it means I no longer subscribe to your "Doctrines of Scripture". And of course Adam didn't need a life preserver, he wasn't lost yet. He needed one afterwards, however, and presumably grabbed hold by now. That doesn't answer the question as to whether or not man is so totally depraved that he can't at least muster a "no" to grace. We share much with Adam in any case, including our proclivity for preferring ourselves and our own way to God's. Mans will was weakened, wounded, damaged by the Fall but the spark of God's image and goodness still remains. And we see this in real life when, for example, a non-believer will simply do the right thing because it's the right thing, including sacrifice their own life for another. Then some might see a Christian do the wrong thing and excuse it because they think God sees him as righteous no matter what as long as he believes-a laughable concept if it wasn't deceiving so many.
You mean like denying Christ three times? Or like committing adultery and killing the husband in battle, or denying the Gospel and sitting with the Jews, or like the struggle with sin in Romans 7?
An early, hot, fast and furious crush/harvest here has got me working long, early days and long, late nights-unable to participate much lately. But here goes now:
And this serves to avoid the question IMO. The problem is when we assume that sin is forgiven regardless of our disposition. The problem is when the gospel becomes an excuse to remain in our sins rather than delivery from them. The problem is when we don't take seriously the possibility and necessity of overcoming sin because we're just unable, we're "bad", even when its acknowledged that perfect sinlessness is not required in this life. The problem is when we pride ourselves in admitting to our sinfulness as if pride, itself, isn't at the very root of sin to begin with and as if God's purpose is only to forgive and not to overcome the sin that we were never created to commit in the first place. IOW, it would be the height of irony, not to mention presumption, to maintain that success in overcoming sin is a matter of pride. Only satan should be smiling at the thought that the gospel has been mangled into a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous and to live accordingly. The problem is when we fail to see that Christ came to forgive, to cleanse, to take away our sins and to replace them with authentic righteousness. And the key to that, from our perspective, is actually humbling ourselves- in faith.
Yes, it's been somewhat curious to me, and amazing, even though it probably shouldn't be, how, when I've struggled with sin, sometimes while I was praying about it and in any case feeling condemned, unworthy, I've instead received some fantastic light or profound insight about one thing or another that I wasn't at all expecting, maybe regarding the sin, itself, rather than the condemnation that I feel I deserve. I'm feeling like God should be abandoning me at that point when all the while He's affirming what I should already know: He's all about my healing: He's on my side despite my sin; He's always been on man's side. We just didn't know it-or just didn't care -but enmity comes from man, not Him. He's saying "Here I am: I'll nourish you above and beyond what you can imagine as long as you're turned to Me-and I'll seek to pull you back if you stray." The sin, itself, is almost trivial to Him as He elevates us above it. To the extent that we can understand God, 1 Cor 13:4-8 goes far in describing His nature as I've come to know Him.
Sure. The state sometimes referred to as "original sin" is the state of alienation, exile, separation from God. This is an anomalous, chaotic state of being, outside of truth, outside of God's will, a state of injustice or sin in itself. Man was absolutely made for communion with God and is lost, dead, sick, wounded, unjust, if apart from Him-and unable to maintain any kind of continuous moral integrity-even though we were not created to be sinners to begin with. We're not even truly human to the extent and that we're not in a state of union with God. Our rebirth begins now, in this life as were reconciled with God, coming out of our exile, now possessing the "knowledge of God" that we're born without as this was lost at the Fall.
It's not legalism if it simply acknowledges the fact that man is expected to cooperate with God's grace, to say yes instead of no to it. And I'm really interested in knowing your sources for study-especially the Catholic sources. Your statement honestly doesn't ring quite true to me, as one who has diligently studied both sides.
Nonsense! Sorry, but nonsense-in a nice sounding quasi-pious sort of way. Justification and sanctification are part of the same thing, sanctification being the continuation and growth in the justice/righteousness received at justification: the seed of God's life now implanted within you, as we walk in the Spirit now given us. Or not. We're no better off than a heathen or unbeliever if we return to the flesh. We will struggle against sin, but those who are victorious will end up with Him.
