SALVATION

[fhansen]

Faith without love is not true faith.

As defined by Claire maybe but Paul and the church separated them out. And that's also why the greatest commandments are not, Have faith in God with your whole heart soul mind strength and in your neighbor as in yourself. The greatest commandments define righteousness as nothing else in the Bible can. Faith should lead to love but only as it unites us with God, the full true source of love.

There's just no need to have this obsession with faith as if everything has to be subsumed under it. It doesn't define righteousness for man although it's certainly part of that and the means to it. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith. Paul put it this way in 1 Cor 13:13
"And now these three remain faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love."

And the church teaches that all three of these supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love must be present in a believer in order for them to be a true child of God.

 

[Clare73]

As defined by Claire maybe but Paul and the church separated them out. And that's also why the greatest commandments are not, Have faith in God with your whole heart soul mind strength and in your neighbor as in yourself. The greatest commandments define righteousness as nothing else in the Bible can. Faith should lead to love but only as it unites us with God, the full true source of love.

All the love in the world is profitless apart from saving faith to salvation.

There's just no need to have this obsession with faith as if everything has to be subsumed under it.

Nothing occurs of the Holy Spirit without faith to salvation, only sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

It doesn't define righteousness for man although it's certainly part of that and the means to it. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith. Paul put it this way in 1 Cor 13:13
"And now these three remain faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love."

And the church teaches that all three of these supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love must be present in a believer in order for them to be a true child of God.

 

[fhansen]

All the love in the world is profitless apart from saving faith to salvation.

All the love in God's universe is all you would need. That is salvation. That is pure true justice/righteousness. That kind of love is the purpose of faith because faith opens the door to love as it opens the door to God. Your salvation is intrinsic to and dependent upon your relationship with Him and the righteousness, the love, that comes only from Him .

Nothing occurs of the Holy Spirit without faith to salvation, only sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

And yet you would be nothing if you had only faith alone, even if that faith could move mountains.

 

[AbbaLove]

Righteousness is righteousness as John reminds us in 1 John 3. It directly opposes sin, which happens to be lawlessness. We can and must, as believers, adhere to this righteousness which the law reflects and testifies to but cannot accomplish in us (Rom 3:21), by walking in the Spirit, regardless of whether or not we've ever even heard the law.

Thus the very fact why Justification can't precede Sanctification (holiness). The reason all our sins are forgiven is due to one's sanctification (holy righteousness) that must precede justification..

All sins is misnerpreted when it includes future sins. No scripture says "future sins." Being sanctified (holy/righteous) is without sin as there are no future sins once one is sanctified. Thus the sequence by Clare73 is wrong; while Paul's sequence is correct.

Romans 8:29-30​

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthins 6:10-11​

10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Paul's sequence is not "wrong" as Clare73 previously posted. The reason tares deceive so-called "born gain" Christians is because of misinterpreted scripture ... telling Believers what we want to believe even to the point of being so deceived as to believe that Paul's sequence is "wrong".

What has become apparent in this SALVATION thread is the dominating influence of seeker-sensitive theology within Christendom. A corrupt theology that actually believes Paul considered himself to be a chief sinner after his miraculous born gain new birth (Titus 3:5) ... AND ... that Paul's SALVATION sequence is "wrong."

When Paul says to: "work out your Salvation with fear and trembline" is not what a Believer wants to hear. What they want to hear is that they are already justified before being sanctified (easy peasy all-in-one Christianity).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Minds set on the flesh (not spiritual) are unregenerate.

So you still didn’t read the next 5 verses, or you’re just ignoring them.

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Are these people believers or not?

 

[Clare73]

All the love in God's universe is all you would need. That is salvation. That is pure true justice/righteousness. That kind of love is the purpose of faith because faith opens the door to love as it opens the door to God.

Your interpretation varies somewhat from the Biblical text.

Salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) and condemnation of all mankind (Ro 5:18) at the final judgment because of sin.
There is no relation with God and no Holy-Spirit-enabled love of God until that issue is resolved.

That issue is resolved ONLY by faith (Eph 2:8-9) in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.

Your salvation is intrinsic to and dependent upon your relationship with Him and the righteousness, the love, that comes only from Him .

And yet you would be nothing if you had only faith alone, even if that faith could move mountains.

Strawman. . .I would likewise be nothing if I were never conceived.

True faith which saves necessarily loves and obeys.
Love and obedience are the consequence of Holy Spirit enabled faith, not the cause of that faith.

Your God is too small.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) and condemnation of all mankind (Ro 5:18) at the final judgment because of sin.
There is no relation with God and no Holy-Spirit-enabled love of God until that issue is resolved.

Salvation is about the necessary forgiveness of sin and the making of new, salvageable, creations who now overcome sin. And what virtue accomplishes that overcoming, that fulfillment of the law? The church identifies the intrinsic link between grace, the Holy Spirit, and love, incidentally.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

That issue is resolved ONLY by faith (Eph 2:8-9) in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.

The issue is resolved only by reconciliation with God, implying the forgiveness of sin and fellowship with Him, a relationship that, itself, constitutes man's justice/righteousness and which is the only means to overcome the sin that otherwise earns us death. Faith is the means to that union-and that's how it saves.

Strawman. . .I would likewise be nothing if I were never conceived.

I guess Paul overlooked that one.

True faith which saves necessarily loves and obeys.
Love and obedience are the consequence of Holy Spirit enabled faith, not the cause of that faith.

True faith is not the equivalent of righteousness but is a part of it, and the means to the fullness of it which includes hope and love as I've already made clear. But hope and love are not the automatic consequence of faith, however, as all these virtues are necessarily both gifts of grace and human choices to accept and act upon those gifts, which we may do more or less well. It's a struggle, to remain in Him and be uninfluenced by the world and our own egos, a struggle to continue and to grow in love, especially, as any honest believer should know by looking at their own lives.

Your God is too small.

Your's is too confused.

 

[Clare73]

Salvation is about the necessary forgiveness of sin and the making of new, salvageable, creations who now overcome sin.

Salvation is about the forgiveness of sin so that there can be the making of new, salvageable, creations who now overcome sin.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is about the forgiveness of sin so that there can be the making of new, salvageable, creations who now overcome sin.

They're inseparable; the making of a new creation, the seed of God's life planted in us, happens at justification as we're forgiven. That's how we can now proceed to overcome the sin that will condemn us to death if we were to continue in it.

 

[Clare73]

They're inseparable; the making of a new creation, the seed of God's life planted in us, happens at justification as we're forgiven. That's how we can now proceed to overcome the sin that will condemn us to death if we were to continue in it.

God's whole plan for the redeemed--new birth, faith, salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification--is inseparable

 

[fhansen]

God's whole plan for the redeemed--new birth, faith, salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification--is inseparable

Yes, righteousness is not merely declared or imputed but given as our divine resource to gain eternal life. It would be an abomination for God to merely acquit the wicked of sin without giving them a new heart and a new spirit all at the same time with which they now can overcome sin, working out and ensuring their salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, righteousness is not merely declared or imputed but given as our divine resource to gain eternal life.

Because of faith (Ro 3:28) which remits sin, righteousness/justification (sin forgiven, sin-free) is declared or imputed (Ro 5:18-19).

RIghteousness/sanctification (acquired holiness) is likewise imparted through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:19).

 

[fhansen]

Because of faith (Ro 3:28) which remits sin, righteousness/justification (sin forgiven, sin-free) is declared or imputed (Ro 5:18-19).

RIghteousness/sanctification (acquired holiness) is likewise imparted through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:19).

They both happen and are part and parcel of being justified: forgiven and made new creations. All of it is aimed at our salvation. Rom 6 warns us to remain slaves to righteousness that leads to eternal life rather than slaves to sin which results in death.

 

[AbbaLove]

God's whole plan for the redeemed--new birth, faith, salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification--is inseparable

Wrong order as Sanctification precedes Justification. Instead of using your postmodern theological (it may seem logical) order ... it's best to stay with the Lord's order as expressed by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ...1 Corinthians 6:10-11 ...

​ 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​ You could've at least said that Paul's order no longer applicable to postmodern [seeker-sensitive] Christendom theology. Paul's sequence may seem "wrong" to your modern order of Salvation; which apparently became doctrine around 325 AD, if not earlier, and likewise being accepted as fact by modern Christianity to this very day. With the exception being a faithful remnant adhering to 1st Century Christianity as expressed by Paul's order. Also see Romans 8:30 ...​ ​ And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.​

 

[Clare73]

Wrong order as Sanctification precedes Justification.

See post #702.

 

[AbbaLove]

following replies to post 702 ...​

Seems you don't understand what justification is.

Like Paul i too understand Justification in Paul's order (Golden Chain) even though your theological pride is such that you actually think Paul's order is "wrong" with sanctification following justifiction instead of sanctification preceding justification (Lord's order) ...

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

Justification is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sin removed.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness, which is sanctification (Ro 6:19).

So far so good - we agree that sanctification precedes justification

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin through faith in the atoning work and person of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).

SALVATION - when we no longer practice sinning ... Sanctification followed by Justification

How can you be justified (declared not guilty, sin removed, acquitted) before it actually takes place in salvation?

You can't. That's why Paul's order is correct with sanctification preceding justification

Then they were never saved and justified in the first place, they were tares, not wheat.

Thus the reason your order is wrong and Paul's order (the Lord's order) is correct,

Then they were never really saved and justified in the first place. They were simply tares that look like wheat.

So now you're hopefully coming around to see why your order is wrong. How can one be justified before they are even sanctified? Now you're Hopefully beginning to see why your order is easy-peasy seeker-sensitive Christianity with justified preceding sanctified.

And why too many so-called Christians are referred to by the world as hypocrites being carnal, nominal, lukewarm being told they are justified and that it's impossible to stop sinning. "Go and sin no more" ... "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen."

And so your half-hearted apology is that they were never saved (TWNS). By putting OSAS (justified) toward the beginning of your theological order ... hoping you will win more converts to stay the race and win the prize. Are you beginning to see that Paul's order is God's order ... "work out your SALVATION with fear and trembling."

Hopefully you are beginning to feel a pang in your heart/stomach when you say or write that Paul's order is wrong with justification (NOT Sanctification) preceding ... "He also glorified"...

And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified​

... and ...​

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

When you say and/or write that Paul's order is wrong who do you think deserves the credit ...

the Holy Spirit's counsel and wisdom that dying to self means to STOP sinning ...​

theological seeker-sensitive appealing interpretation with justification before sanctification​

the theo[ill]logical cunning of a lying spirit who tells what they would rather believe​

 

[fhansen]

I took the following post of mine from a different thread:

It should be understood that salvation is more than God selecting some poor, wretched, sinful slobs to stock heaven with while stocking hell with the unfortunate rest of humanity. Salvation is about man coming to fulfill his purpose, his telos, who he was created to be, like a flower fully blossoming. All creation has a purpose but man can thwart his; he can wither and die. He was, simply, made for communion with God, in a bond of love, where, incidentally, all of man’s desire is completely satisfied by and in that Being.

And that love and the nearness to God that it means is the essence of man’s righteousness. The more we love the more like God we become. And love, while a gift of grace, is also necessarily a choice, in order for it to even be love. We need to be shown that kind of love and come to value and desire it so that we’re drawn to its Source, God, the font of all goodness and love. The church has rightfully taught that salvation is a journey, to our own perfection which begins as we embark on it -with God at the helm. The beginning of this journey, from our perspective, is faith, the ticket for getting on board. The journey is to begin in this life, with the finished work not completed until the next, when we meet "face to face".

 

[Clare73]

Like Paul i too understand Justification in Paul's order (Golden Chain) even though your theological pride is such that you actually think Paul's order is "wrong" with sanctification following justifiction instead of sanctification preceding justification (Lord's order) ...

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

So far so good - we agree that sanctification precedes justification
SALVATION - when we no longer practice sinning ... Sanctification followed by Justification
You can't. That's why Paul's order is correct with sanctification preceding justification
Thus the reason your order is wrong and Paul's order (the Lord's order) is correct,
So now you're hopefully coming around to see why your order is wrong. How can one be justified before they are even sanctified? Now you're Hopefully beginning to see why your order is easy-peasy seeker-sensitive Christianity with justified preceding sanctified.
And why too many so-called Christians are referred to by the world as hypocrites being carnal, nominal, lukewarm being told they are justified and that it's impossible to stop sinning. "Go and sin no more" ... "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen."
And so your half-hearted apology is that they were never saved (TWNS). By putting OSAS (justified) toward the beginning of your theological order ... hoping you will win more converts to stay the race and win the prize. Are you beginning to see that Paul's order is God's order ... "work out your SALVATION with fear and trembling."
Hopefully you are beginning to feel a pang in your heart/stomach when you say or write that Paul's order is wrong with justification (NOT Sanctification) preceding ... "He also glorified"...

And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified​

... and ...But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

When you say and/or write that Paul's order is wrong who do you think deserves the credit ...

the Holy Spirit's counsel and wisdom that dying to self means to STOP sinning ...​

theological seeker-sensitive appealing interpretation with justification before sanctification​

the theo[ill]logical cunning of a lying spirit who tells what they would rather believe​

See post #702.

 

[Hugo B]

1Then drew near unto him [Jesus] all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. (Luke 15)

In this parable of Jesus, what did the lost sheep had to do? Did the sheperd take charge of the lost sheep, or the ninety and nine ? Who does He call "My sheep" ? Is the joy in heaven because of the lost sheep, or the ninety and nine ?
And who is this sheperd ? And who are those sheeps ? Who is who in this affair ?

Hugo

 

[AbbaLove]

​

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

following replies to post 702 ...

Seems you don't understand what justification is.

Like Paul i too understand Justification in Paul's order (Golden Chain) even though your theological pride is such that you actually think Paul's order is "wrong" with sanctification following justifiction instead of sanctification preceding justification (Lord's order) ...

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

Justification is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sin removed.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness, which is sanctification (Ro 6:19).

So far so good - we agree that sanctification precedes justification

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin through faith in the atoning work and person of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).

SALVATION when we stop sinning ... Sanctification followed by Justification

How can you be justified (declared not guilty, sin removed, acquitted) before it actually takes place in salvation?

You can't. That's why Paul's order is correct with sanctification preceding justification

Then they were never saved and justified in the first place, they were tares, not wheat.

Thus the reason your order is wrong and Paul's order (the Lord's order) is the correct,

Then they were never really saved and justified in the first place. They were simply tares that look like wheat.

So now you're hopefully coming around to see why your order is wrong. How can one be justified before they are even sanctified? Now you're Hopefully beginning to see why your order is easy-peasy seeker-sensitive Christianity with justified preceding sanctified. And why too many so-called Christians are referred to by the world as hypocrites being carnal, nominal, lukewarm having believed they were justified even though they can't seem to STOP sinning. "Go and sin no more" ... "Stop your sining or something worse may happen."

And so your half-hearted apology is that they were never saved (TWNS). By putting OSAS (justified) toward the beginning of your theological order ... hoping you will win more converts to stay the race and win the prize. Are you beginning to see that Paul's order is God;s order.

Hopefully you are beginning to feel a pang in your heart/stomach when you are so emboldened as to ever say or write again, Paul's order is wrong with justification (NOT Sanctification preceding "He also glorified"...

And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified​

... and ...​

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

When you say, write that Paul's order is wrong who do you think is responsible ...

the Holy Spirit's counsel and wisdom that means die to self - STOP sinning.​

theological seeker-sensitive interpretation with being justified before being sanctified​

the theo[ill]logical cunning of a lying spirit who tells you what you want to believe​

See post #702.

see post 816 as reply to 702. Hopefully you re beginning to see why the Holy Spirit led Paul to write Romans 8:30 and 1 Corinthians 6:11. You re on shifting sands when you go" against Paul as being "wrong" while accepting postmodern Salvation theology.

For example future sins are not forgiven as Jesus instructs us to "Go, sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen"

You and many others apparently believe it's impossible to STOP sinning so they likewise think that being holy/righteous (Sanctification) is not possible so todays nominal church interprets "All sins" as including future sins. They do this because your out of order with sanctification following justification instead of the Lord's order with justification following sanctification.

Your theology is such that a modern-day born again regenerated Christian has to have their future sins forgiven in order to be sanctified. In effect the church has watered down sanctification to mean that sin is still allowed, but don't worry even future sins are now forgiven ... even after being born again with the indwelling empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Then your posts as much as suggest that those that don't believe your order of Salvation are tares.

It's no wonder why American Christianity has been referred to as the Laodicean (halfhearted) church with one foot in the church; while the other foot is stuck in the world. Yet you hold to your Salvation order because its more acceptable to the seeker-sensitive gospel mindset that maintains it's near impossible if not impossible to STOP sinning.

So the majority of today's American church has changed the order of Salvation to the point that those that favor Paul's order are considered tares. Those that believe your re-order believes it will further the salvation of mankind by bringing in more converts. Than your excuse if your order isn't successful is that "they were never saved" when they remain carnal, lukewarm, backslide, etc.