SALVATION

[fhansen]

Nope. . .eternal life is the result of the sovereign new birth by the sovereign Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

No, the idea that God suddenly decided to turn man into a puppet or automaton whose choice is totally removed from his destiny is completely unaligned with the gospel.

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Yes, as I've constantly maintained. And like any gift, we can except or reject it.

 

[fhansen]

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:1–4).​

These are the foolish people I'm talking about.

Okay? The flesh counts for nothing, we know that. It's only by the Spirit that we put to death the deeds of the flesh, sin, lawlessness, without even needing to hear the law let alone be under it. Only by the Spirit, only by God can we be made perfect. Our biggest problem is in thinking we already are, apart from Him.

 

[Clare73]

No, the idea that God suddenly decided to turn man into a puppet or automaton whose choice is totally removed from his destiny is completely unaligned with the gospel.

Yes, as I've constantly maintained. And like any gift, we can except or reject it.

Ah, but he doesn't stop there. . .he also gives us to prefer it, so that we freely choose it.
We don't reject those things we find attractive and prefer, which is what God' works in the human heart in regard to faith.

 

[Clare73]

The final proof of one's SALVATION is God's Justification before it's possible to receive eternal life with a glorified body.

10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

As early as 325 AD, if not earlier, one's "justification" was being interpretated as effectively occurring when a new convert of the faith was "washed" (cleansed) and not before receiving a glorified body. Evidence of this religious change of order is evident by Clare73 and millions of other religious Christians that believe Paul's order is "wrong" (1 Cor 6:11).

Clare73 said:​

Salvation results in a glorified body, because ...​

... salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)​

... even an infant (of Christian parents) that was sprinkle with holy water (washed/born again). Protestantism likewise saw the advantage of drawing more converts to the reformed faith of similar theology with "justification" occurring at one's baptism (spiritual washing).

It's quite obvious from the many posts in this thread that some Christians starting out as "justified" remain nominal, lukewrm or backslide becoming unfaithful, therefore losing what was an initial justification or were never "saved/justified" so as to receive eternal life with a glorified body.

Once justified always justified (OJAJ) may be as tenuous as OSAS. True justification is only possible being Faithful in Him to their last breathe. However one that's faithful to the RCC 'sor TUPIL Calvinism believes OSAS and OJAJ. Yet the Apostle Paul 's order is with "justification" following "sanctification" NOT folliwing "wash" (cleansing). Even Clare73 agrees that once cleansed is no guarantee of continued cleansing.

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Thus Paul's order is the correct order; whereas Clare73's order is premature with true Justification not possible if say a seeker-sensitive Believer later backslides from Faith in Him.

Paul is not presenting it as the "order," as demonstrated in post #702. He is simply listing them.

 

[fhansen]

Ah, but he doesn't stop there. . .he also gives us to prefer it, so that we freely choose it.
We don't reject those things we find attractive and prefer, which is what God' works in the human heart in regard to faith.

It doesn't work that way though Claire, but you only need a slight modification in your theology. If that's the only way to achieve righteousness in man then He could have just done that from the beginning and avoided all the hell this worlds was gone through since then. Instead, we're here to learn-of our need for Him, we're here to experience evil and sin and it's ugliness in a world where He's gone away and man's will rules alone in the moral sphere, which is what Adam opted for. So by experience and revelation and grace we might choose rightly this time.

If God causes us to prefer one way rather than the other than our choice isn't really involved. Instead He shows us and allows us to taste of his goodness and so to contrast that with what the world has to offer. It's a gift, and a choice, and an ongoing choice that we must persevere in.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age—and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.Heb 6:4-6

 

[AbbaLove]

Paul is not presenting it as the "order," as demonstrated in post #702. He is simply listing them.

Wrong again as Paul's order has been referred to as the "Golden Chain" (the orrect order) leading to eternal life (glorified body). Your incorrect order has been around since 325 AD, if not earlier. Being sprinkled with holy water by a priest is considered saved, born again, justified. Even most of Protestantism believes that a person is "saved" (justified" when a seeker-sensitive Believer is water baptized perferrably water immersion (justifications).

Your order is a carryover from interpreting "justification" to mean water baptism going back to 325 AD, if not earlier when Christendom became an organized religious affiliation.having the correct theology as approved/mandated by the Vicar of Christ on earth. Later accepted as the (?correct?) theology by Protestantism, TUPIL Calvinism, LDS, JW.

Paul's order is the correct order ...

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Clare73]

Wrong again as Paul's order has been referred to as the "Golden Chain"

If "golden chain" is not stated in the NT, then it demonstrates nothing.

See post #702.

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't work that way though Claire, but you only need a slight modification in your theology. If that's the only way to achieve righteousness in man then He could have just done that from the beginning and avoided all the hell this worlds was gone through since then.

Who said efficiency is the goal?

Instead, we're here to learn-of our need for Him,

Who made that rule?

And not according to Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, which state that is impossible apart from the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

we're here to experience evil and sin and it's ugliness in a world where He's gone away and man's will rules alone in the moral sphere, which is what Adam opted for. So by experience and revelation and grace we might choose rightly this time.

Only the sovereignly born-again (Jn 3:3-8) can choose rightly (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14); i.e., belief in Jesus Christ.

If God causes us to prefer one way rather than the other than our choice isn't really involved.

Contraire. . .

Then you don't know the meaning of Biblical free will: the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Instead He shows us and allows us to taste of his goodness and so to contrast that with what the world has to offer.
It's a gift, and a choice, and an ongoing choice that we must persevere in.

Agreed. . .saving faith is a gift, saving faith is a choice, which saving faith God gives us to prefer and we freely choose.

If we do not persevere, then we did not have saving faith, we had the counterfeit faith of Mt 7:21-23.

 

[AbbaLove]

Justification (forensic righteousness, declaration of "not guilty") by faith (Ro 3:28) occurs with salvation (sin forgiven). (Eph 2:8-9).

Religious Christendom has instituted a theology of "justiftication" (*and thereby "salvation") occurring with the water baptism of a Believer. Although "reform" Baptists do not consider water baptism to be necessary for one's salvation.

Salvation = God's forgiveness of sin, removal of his wrath (Ro 5:9) on one's sin.
Justification = sentence of acquittal of guilt (by God), of "not guilty," sin forgiven (Ro 3:28).
Sanctification = becoming a slave to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:19).
Death = separation of the human spirit from its body to be with Christ (Php 1:21-26).
Resurrection = raised from mortal death to immortal life (1 Co 15:42).
Glorification - new spiritual body at the resurrection like Jesus' spiritual resurrection body (i.e., physical, imperishable, glorious, powerful), fit to live eternally with God (1 Co 15:49, 53-54).

Your order also suggests that "Salvation" occurs with a "washing/cleansing" (baptism). Perhaps that's why some believe OSAS. Even, if a seeker-sensitive convert has the pretense of a Christian, but still can't kick worldly vices (die to sin) the church may still accept him as long as his sin isn't to grievous

Justification is God's sentence of acquittal of guilt, which is conditioned on 1) Christ's sacrifice, and 2) acceptance of Christ by faith; i.e., salvation (Ro 5:16).

The gift (Ro 5:15),
the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),Catena Aurea
the gift of God (Ro 5:16), that was unlike the result of one man's sin which brought condemnation for all,
the gift that followed many transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.
That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16).Catena Aurea (Paul's Golden Chain - 1 Corinthians 6:11)

Those verses do not prove that "justification" occurs in your religious order ... rather an indication of a theological order based on your expressed belief that Paul's .Catena Aurea Golden Chain order is "wrong."

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.​

Can you not see that the Gift (Justification) leading to one's SALAVATION does not happen until their physical death so that they inherit eternal life. Your order is in no small measure the reason for all of Christendom's debating about OSAS or OJAJ.

What seeker-sensitive Believer doesn't prefer your order (and in no small measure) why they don't grow in His Spirit (lukewarm, backslide, become unfaithful) being told by other "Christains" that the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased to operate and no longer necessary/needed.

 

[Clare73]

Religious Christendom has instituted a theology of "justiftication" (*and thereby "salvation") occurring with the water baptism of a Believer. Although "reform" Baptists do not consider water baptism to be necessary for one's salvation.

Your order also suggests that "Salvation" occurs with a "washing/cleansing" (baptism). Perhaps that's why some believe OSAS. Even, if a seeker-sensitive convert has the pretense of a Christian, but still can't kick worldly vices (die to sin) the church may still accept him as long as his sin isn't to grievous

Those verses do not prove that "justification" occurs in your religious order ... rather an indication of a theological order based on your expressed belief that Paul's .Catena Aurea Golden Chain order is "wrong."

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.​

Can you not see that the Gift (Justification) leading to one's SALAVATION does not happen until their physical death so that they inherit eternal life. Your order is in no small measure the reason for all of Christendom's debating about OSAS or OJAJ.

What seeker-sensitive Believer doesn't prefer your order (and in no small measure) why they don't grow in His Spirit (lukewarm, backslide, become unfaithful) being told by other "Christains" that the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased to operate and no longer necessary/needed.

See post #702.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I will not spend one more second dialoguing with a closed mind.

That's okay, you started the conversation anyway.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

On the contrary what Setst777 is teaching has evidence to support it going all the way back to the apostolic churches.

You said “regardless of what points you’re making”. He’s quoting scriptures, surely you don’t mean regardless of what these scriptures that he’s quoting say. When we’re presented with scriptures that contradict our theology we have to reevaluate our theology. Sound doctrine isn’t derived from incorporating certain passages and ignoring others. We have to compare all scripture together to formulate a theology that coincides with all scripture seamlessly and flawlessly in order to consider it sound doctrine. So we need to take the passages that appear to support eternal security and the passages that appear to support conditional salvation and determine how both can be true. That’s the only way we can arrive at a sound theology.

Treating others as God has treated us, this is how we can arrive at a sound theology. Because God is the Theos in Theology.

 

[AbbaLove]

If "golden chain" is not stated in the NT, then it demonstrates nothing.

So why then did you reference it (Catena Aurea) if your chain of [re]order as replacing Paul's Catena Aurea when it's the primary source being the Lord God's order.

Clare73 said:​

​

The gift (Ro 5:15),​

the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),Catena Aurea​

the gift of God (Ro 5:16), that was unlike the result of one man's sin which brought condemnation for all,​

the gift that followed many transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.​

That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16). Catena Aurea​

In case you weren't aware ... theologians haven been interpreting scripture to suit their theology for centuries. Being the supposed justification for so many denominations (by religious man) with each denomination believing or wanting to believe they have the best interpretation of God's Word. Unfortunately leading to a lack of fellowship (brotherly love) within His Church.

Best to remain Faithful to the inspired Bible, unless you should think Paul's order is misrepresented and therefore "wrong" as does Clare73. Likewise by and large Christendom, doesn't see why the need to "work out one's SALVATION with fear and trembling" when they are initially justified with their public confession of Faith (John 3:16), and further evident with a public washing/cleansing (water baptism).

Best to believe Paul's Catena Aurea order than Clare73's re--order of Catena Aurea as shown below with justification preceding sanctification ...

salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection --> glorification (immortal, sinless, glorious body like Christ's)​

Best to believe the Lord's correct order ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

 

[Clare73]

The new birth (spiritual life) is by the indwelling Spirit in the New Covenant in Christ, which is what you believe.
Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).
Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
The Spirit wills to indwell everyone who believes to give them spiritual life, and this only takes place in the New Covenant.

Spiritually dead men cannot do anything spiritual, just as physically dead men cannot do anything physical.

Spiritually dead men (i.e., without the Holy Spirit) cannot spiritually believe, in fact they can't even see the things of God (Jn 3:3-8),
they cannot understand them and think they are foolishness (1 Co 2:14).

Spiritually dead men must be raised to eternal life in the new birth in order to believe.
The Holy Spirit indwells everyone whom he raises to eternal life in the new birth, and is the giver of their faith.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}
John 4:14 (WEB) Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
Galatians 3:2 (WEB) 2 I just want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?

Referring to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, of which there was an abundance at the beginning of the church, as distinct from his indwelling at the new birth.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Yes, the promised Holy Spirit is both the giver of faith and the seal/guarantee of the faith he gives. God is not an Indian giver.

Philippians 1:29 (WEB) 29 Because it has been granted [5483 xarízomai] to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf,

In Philippians 1:29, God is not giving [1435 dṓron] your faith and suffering; rather, the gracious privilege is bestowed [5483 xarízomai] {{{to you}}} to believe [active] and suffer [active] for Christ.

The emphasis is on the person to believe (active) and suffer (active) for Christ, which has been graciously granted to them to do.

Yes, faith is a gift granted.

Act 13:48 KJV 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

In Acts 13:48, does not say how they were appointed. Therefore, in regards to "appointed," we could say that the ones appointed to eternal life by the foreknowledge of God are the ones who believed, which is because of the Gospel that was preached to them (Romans 10:17).

No, the ones appointed to eternal life before the worlds began are the ones to whom he then gave faith to fulfill his appointment.

Nor does the Bible present the foreknowledge of God (prognosis) as causing anything.
It presents God's foreknowledge as knowing in advance what God is going to do (cause), it's not about what man is going to do.
And God knows in advance what he is going to do because he has decreed that he shall do it.
The ones he appointed to eternal life are the ones to whom he will give faith.

Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

Through the gracious invitation of the Gospel (Acts 18:28), we come to believe in Lord Jesus – to whoever believes (Romans 10:17).

Only through the gracious working of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, do we come to believe in Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 1:1 (WEB) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

This Passage does not say that God gives them faith; rather, Paul is addressing his Epistle to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. This is all because of the Gospel.

And how did they obtain it. . .it was a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1).

Romans 12:3 (WEB) 3 For I say through the grace that was given me, to every man who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of faith.In context, this Passage is addressed to the Roman Christians, and is discussing the gifts of the Spirit given to these believers, and the measure of faith to operate in those gifts.

However, Php 1:29, Ac 13:48 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1 are not about operation of gifts.

 

[Clare73]

So why then did you reference it (Catena Aurea) if your chain of [re]order as replacing Paul's Catena Aurea when it's the primary source being the Lord God's order.

Clare73 said:​

The gift (Ro 5:15),​

the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),Catena Aurea​

the gift of God (Ro 5:16), that was unlike the result of one man's sin which brought condemnation for all,​

the gift that followed many transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.​

That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16). Catena Aurea​

In case you weren't aware ... theologians haven been interpreting scripture to suit their theology for centuries. Being the supposed justification for so many denominations (by religious man) with each denomination believing or wanting to believe they have the best interpretation of God's Word. Unfortunately leading to a lack of fellowship (brotherly love) within His Church.

Best to remain Faithful to the inspired Bible, unless you should think Paul's order is misrepresented and therefore "wrong" as does Clare73. Likewise by and large Christendom, doesn't see why the need to "work out one's SALVATION with fear and trembling" when they are initially justified with their public confession of Faith (John 3:16), and further evident with a public washing/cleansing (water baptism).

Best to believe Paul's Catena Aurea order than Clare73's re--order of Catena Aurea as shown below with justification preceding sanctification ...

salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection --> glorification (immortal, sinless, glorious body like Christ's)​

Best to believe the Lord's correct order ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

See post #702.

 

[setst777]

Spiritually dead men cannot do anything spiritual, just as physically dead men cannot do anything physical.

That is your belief, which contradicts Lord Jesus and His Apsotles.

John 3:16 ... whoever believes has eternal life [rebirth of the Spirit in those who believe]

You believe that Eternal Life is the rebirth of the Spirit dwelling in us.

Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. [Regeneration is by faith]

John 8:12 (WEB) He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life [regeneration].

John 20:31 (WEB) But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Spiritually dead men (i.e., without the Holy Spirit) cannot spiritually believe, in fact they can't even see the things of God (Jn 3:3-8),
they cannot understand them and think they are foolishness (1 Co 2:14).

The "spiritual things" refer to those things meant for Christians to study and live by - instruction to the churches for their encouragement, teaching, admonishment, warning, etc. These things are meant for those who already believe, following Lord Jesus.

The Gospel Call to repentance and faith are for sinners, which can be refused, and the Spirit resisted.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

If they believe, then they are saved, receiving the Spirit to give them eternal life, which is the rebirth of the Spirit.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Eternal Life in us is the born-again experience - according to you.

Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).

We have eternal life [rebirth into eternal life] by faith:

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [The rebirth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life, which is by faith]

Spiritually dead men must be raised to eternal life in the new birth in order to believe.
The Holy Spirit indwells everyone whom he raises to eternal life in the new birth, and is the giver of their faith.

The spiritually dead are raised to life to eternal life by faith, according to God's Word.

Colossians 2:12 …you were also raised with him through faith [present and continuous] in the working of God

Referring to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, of which there was an abundance at the beginning of the church, as distinct from his indwelling at the new birth.

Lord Jesus was giving prophecy; in that, the Spirit is received by faith to give us life - the living water welling up inside us.

The Spirit indwells us by faith, according to Lord Jesus and the Apostles.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to {{{{receive}}}}.

The Living Water is the indwelling Spirit, welling up to Eternal Life - Eternal Life is the context of receiving the Spirit.

Lord Jesus said we receive that Spirit by faith.

John 4:14 (WEB) Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

Your idea that this Spiritual Life in us by the Spirit indwelling us is another a manifestation of the Holy Spirit is refuted by Lord Jesus and the Apostles. The "living water" is the Spirit in us welling up to Eternal Life - not some other manifestation of the Spirit.

Yes, the promised Holy Spirit is both the giver of faith and the seal/guarantee of the faith he gives. God is not an Indian giver.

"Ephesians 3:13" states just the opposite of what you believe. The Spirit indwells those who first believed.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, {{{having also believed}}}, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Yes, faith is a gift granted.

At first, the Gospel was granted to the Jews, to those who believe.

Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Now, however, this repentance onto life by the Gospel is granted to the Gentiles as well.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

In this present age, God indiscriminately grants both Jews and Gentiles repentance onto life by the Gospel.

Luke 24:44-47 (EWEB) 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

Acts 17:30 But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

No, the ones appointed to eternal life before the worlds began are the ones to whom he then gave faith to fulfill his appointment.

That is your belief. You actually have to show a Scripture that actually states that God elects to give faith to some by regeneration. But if you did that, then all rest of the Scriptures would be false that say that we receive LIFE by faith in Lord Jesus - the Spirit indwelling us by faith.

Nor does the Bible present the foreknowledge of God (prognosis) as causing anything.

That is your belief. God can, and certainly has, acted on his foreknowledge throughout the OT and NT. That is what prophecy is all about, God acting on what he already had foreknowledge of.

It presents God's foreknowledge as knowing in advance what God is going to do (cause), it's not about what man is going to do.
And God knows in advance what he is going to do because he has decreed that he shall do it.
The ones he appointed to eternal life are the ones to whom he will give faith.

God has decreed, willed, desired, from before the foundation of the world to save those who believe, which is how the Scriptures explain it.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [The rebirth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life, which is by faith]

1 Corinthians 1:21 (EWEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Only through the gracious working of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, do we come to believe in Lord Jesus.

Both God's Word and Spirit convict the hearts of men as the Gospel is preached, but many can and do refuse the Gospel Call and they resist the Spirit - according to the Scriptures.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

Matthew 22:3 (NIV) He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NIV) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

And how did they obtain it. . .it was a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1).

However, Php 1:29, Ac 13:48 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1 are not about operation of gifts.

I already responded to these Scriptures. You don't like the responses, but if you want to uphold your position as correct, then you cannot be using ambiguous Passages that can be isolated and interpreted to mean more than one thing.

You actually have to show Scriptures that clearly teach that God gives, as a gift, faith to some to be saved by regeneration, and not others.

You cannot do this, because all the Scriptures teach that we are saved by believing in Lord Jesus, and that we receive the Spirit by faith to give us life.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. [Regeneration is by faith]

John 8:12 (WEB) He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life [regeneration].

John 20:31 (WEB) But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

 

[AbbaLove]

Seems you don't understand what justification is.

We both understand justification. Its just that your order isn't the Lord's order as recorded by Paul and translated correctly (check the Greek/English parallel). Justification follows sanctification and precedes eternal life with a glorified body via one's justification ("Catena Aurea").

Clare73 said:​

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That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16). Catena Aurea​

However According to the Catena Aurea "justification" follows sanctification preceding the glorified body of a Faithrul Christian throughout their life ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

See post #702.

See posts 746, 749, 753

Then they were never saved and justified in the first place,

You are way too quick to reject an immature Christian and show them to the door. Are you by any chance a fundamentalist to the point that anyone that favors Paul's Catena Aurea over your re-order is a tare?

Then they were never really saved and justified in the first place. They were simply tares that look like wheat.

That's where your indoctrination has blinded you to the extent of referring to anyone that doesn't agree with your salvation re-order (Catena Aurea) from that of Paul's Catena Aurea is a tare. Your order of Salvation began in 325 AD if not earlier so you have lots of company ...

salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection --> glorification (immortal, sinless, glorious body like Christ's)​

See post #702.

Go back and re-read posts 746, 749, 753 and allow the Lord to reveal the true Catena Aurea that you previously referenced instead of your re-ordering of your Salvation order.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Okay? The flesh counts for nothing, we know that. It's only by the Spirit that we put to death the deeds of the flesh, sin, lawlessness, without even needing to hear the law let alone be under it. Only by the Spirit, only by God can we be made perfect. Our biggest problem is in thinking we already are, apart from Him.

You do know what these verses are talking about, right?

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (Ga 3:2–3)​

These aparently foolish Christian people thought they were "being made perfect by the flesh". What were they doing to brought on this accusation? The answer is obvious in the preceeding verses and those that follow...

Preceeding verses...

19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”​

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3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?​

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The New King James Version (Ga 2:19–3:1). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

Verses that follow...

4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?​

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5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.​

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10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

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The New King James Version (Ga 3:4–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

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One of the halmarks of Christians who think they are being perfected by the deeds of the flesh is that they set aside the grace of God in favor of trying to obtain righteousness through obedience to the law. This is truly a foolish endeavor because this places them under the curse of the law.

 

[setst777]

Okay? The flesh counts for nothing, we know that. It's only by the Spirit that we put to death the deeds of the flesh, sin, lawlessness, without even needing to hear the law let alone be under it. Only by the Spirit, only by God can we be made perfect. Our biggest problem is in thinking we already are, apart from Him.

Correct. There is a big difference between:

Sinners trying to gain righteousness by the works of the Law, while they remain enslaved to sin

And

Sinners who, by faith, have been freed from sin's bondage by the Spirit, so they now live a new life onto God in righteousness and love, which is what Baptism represents.

Romans 6:1-8 (WEB) What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also {{{be part of his resurrection}}}. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also {{{live with him}}}

Therefore, by faith, we walk in the Spirit, and so, we fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do; in that, it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 8:12 (WEB) He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life [regeneration].

 

[fhansen]

Who said efficiency is the goal?

IDK, not me. But if the only alternative is gratuitous evil then we wouldn't have much of a God anyway.

Who made that rule?

He did, of course, And I've experienced this education myself. I know, from personal experience, just how much I need God. I know from personal experience the ugliness of sin, of a life lived apart from Him and the change in me of knowing His forgiveness, whether this world forgives or not. This life has taught me well even though I hope to learn my lesson even better as time moves on. I wouldn't trust an experience which consists of, "Um, today I believe but yesterday I didn't and I really don't know why but I was completely transformed overnight." Maybe a Damascus Rd experience granted by God here and there for His purposes, but other than that...there's a reason for this particular world-a purpose for it.

I see it when I accept and love others with the acceptance and love shown me, and they change, too, leaving their own slavery and addictions and anger behind. I learned in from a world that often tramples upon truth and hope and justice and love. We're like prodigals in a pigsty, relatively speaking. We should want something better, we should develop a hunger and thirst for justice and righteous here and be especially ready to receive it when, by grace, we're shown something better. I learn it from a godless world that victimizes its people. But either way, some will answer the call, and some won't.

And not according to Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, which state that is impossible apart from the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

We enter God's family via faith-and that is to be born again. That faith is a gift, one that we must maintain and cultivate as we remain in Him, and one that we can reject or spit back out instead. The Holy Spirit will not remain in us if we prefer otherwise.

Only the sovereignly born-again (Jn 3:3-8) can choose rightly (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14); i.e., belief in Jesus Christ.

God wants none to perish-He graces all. Some will humble themselves- overcoming their pride to respond-while others will not.

Then you don't know the meaning of Biblical free will: the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

If someone changes my preference or disposition, that's external force, influence, whatever name you wish to call it.

Agreed. . .saving faith is a gift, saving faith is a choice, which saving faith God gives us to prefer and we freely choose.

It's not a choice if I have no choice other than to accept the gift. Again, only an evil god would create a world where evil reigns until He decides instead to make zombies who can only choose good.