SALVATION

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That doesn't sound much better than the previous covenant if it's based on the human messing things up. Did Jesus die for nothing? In any case, what Paul was so convinced about was really all that common? I guess only Paul was convinced of such a thing.

You have identified the fault...

So, if the Christian keeps himself in God's Love, manifested by carefully walking in God's Spirit indwelling him, then God is able to keep him from falling.​

​

He thinks people earn/maintain their salvation through obedience to God's laws. As you say, it is no different than the old covenant.

 

[Clare73]

True enough. Either way the basis of the question in the OP concerns specifically whether or not a person needs to be and act righteously in order to gain eternal life.

We don't "gain" eternal life, just as we don't gain physical life.
We have absolutely no control over either.

We don't "gain" the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), who is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), just as
we don't "gain" physical birth by our parents.

The Holy Spirit enables us to remain in eternal life, just as
our parents enable us to remain in physical life.

 

[setst777]

That doesn't sound much better than the previous covenant if it's based on the human messing things up. Did Jesus die for nothing? In any case, what Paul was so convinced about was really all that common? I guess only Paul was convinced of such a thing.

What I described is the Gospel, and the Gospel Faith, as presented and described in the New Testament, of which I provided Scripture. Therefore, this is not my doctrine; rather, this is God's Word. Either you are "in Christ" or you are not "in Christ." To be "in Christ" is by faith. That is the Gospel.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes [continuous], for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Lord Jesus died to save those who believe in him, the same kind of faith Abraham had (Romans 4).

A Believer is a Christian, and a Christian is a disciple of Lord Jesus.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

That is what the "Great Commission" is all about - to make disciples of all nations.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 28:19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to obey all things that I commanded you.

Faith in Christ, that God accepts to be saved, always includes repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10), and a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love. These are the only kind of "believers" that Lord Jesus gives Eternal Life.

John 10:27 My sheep hear [listen] my voice, and I know them, and they [The sheep who listen to and follow Lord Jesus] follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them [The sheep who listen to and follow Lord Jesus]. They [The sheep who listen to and follow Lord Jesus] will never perish, and no one will snatch {them} out of my hand.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

1 John 2:4-6 (WEB) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

The Blood of Christ will only cleanse the believer from any sins he does commit in weakness if the believer manifests his faith by walking in the light.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If {{{we}}} say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 Peter 2:21 (WEB) 21 For you were called to this, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you {{{an example, that you should follow}}} {{in his steps}}

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Lord Jesus instructs his followers 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Romans 6:1-8 (WEB) What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also {{{be part of his resurrection}}}. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also {{{live with him}}}

Revelation 3:1-6 (NIV) 1 I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious [overcomes] will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[setst777]

We don't "gain" eternal life, just as we don't gain physical life.
We have absolutely no control over either.

We don't "gain" the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), who is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), just as
we don't "gain" physical birth by our parents.

The Holy Spirit enables us to remain in eternal life, just as
our parents enable us to remain in physical life.

We are children of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Regeneration is to receive God’s Spirit AFTER a person believes and becomes a child of God.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

The Promise of God is guaranteed to those who believe – as they remain in the faith:

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Therefore, since the Promise is by faith (children of God by faith) then, to remain a child of God, the Christian is admonished to remain in the faith lest he be cut off.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV)
Then you will say, “Branches [the Jews to whom the Promises were made] were broken off so that I (the Gentile) might be grafted in.” That is true. They [Jews who fell] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith.
So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches [the Jews who fell, to whom the Promises were made], neither will he spare you [Gentiles who share in the Promise by faith].
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them [the Jews who fell, to whom the Promise was originally made] by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

 

[fhansen]

Correct. That's why the answer to "the basis of the question in the OP concerns specifically whether or not a person needs to be and act righteously in order to gain eternal life" is "not". No one will gain eternal life on the basis of being righteous and acting righteously.

And I agree with you that when we are saved we become slaves of righteousness. This is true, however, only of the inner man. The flesh is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are no longer slaves of the flesh, and we are under no obligation to fulfil it's desires. But the only way to not fulfil its desires is to walk in lock step with the Spirit.

Fleshly minded people tend to focus on the deeds of the flesh. They tend to think it can be trained to be good. And they tend to measure their success by the quantity and qulaity of its sins they suppress. But the true victors rise above the flesh, accept that there is no condemnation for its sins and sinfulness, do not try to conform the flesh to the requirements of the law, believe the truth that they are married to the one who was raised from the dead, and serve Him in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter.

Fleshly minded people are more prone to commit deeds of the flesh, such sins as mentioned in Gal 5 and Reve 21 and 22 that lead to death. One can't be a Spirit -minded person and do such things.That'a what its about. Being and persistently living unrighteously can most certainly keep anyone from heaven.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8'12-14

Again, when it's understood that men cannot be the person he was created to be unless he's reconciled with and enters communion with God first, now under grace, then they'll better understand the gospel and understand how the following verses reconcile:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom 5:1

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What I described is the Gospel, and the Gospel Faith, as presented and described in the New Testament, of which I provided Scripture. Therefore, this is not my doctrine; rather, this is God's Word. Either you are "in Christ" or you are not "in Christ." To be "in Christ" is by faith. That is the Gospel.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes [continuous], for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Lord Jesus died to save those who believe in him, the same kind of faith Abraham had (Romans 4).

A Believer is a Christian, and a Christian is a disciple of Lord Jesus.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

That is what the "Great Commission" is all about - to make disciples of all nations.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 28:19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to obey all things that I commanded you.

Faith in Christ, that God accepts to be saved, always includes repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10), and a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love. These are the only kind of "believers" that Lord Jesus gives Eternal Life.

John 10:27 My sheep hear [listen] my voice, and I know them, and they [The sheep who listen to and follow Lord Jesus] follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them [The sheep who listen to and follow Lord Jesus]. They [The sheep who listen to and follow Lord Jesus] will never perish, and no one will snatch {them} out of my hand.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

1 John 2:4-6 (WEB) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

The Blood of Christ will only cleanse the believer from any sins he does commit in weakness if the believer manifests his faith by walking in the light.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If {{{we}}} say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But {{{if we}}} walk in the light, as he is in the light, {{{we}}} have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 Peter 2:21 (WEB) 21 For you were called to this, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you {{{an example, that you should follow}}} {{in his steps}}

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Lord Jesus instructs his followers 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Romans 6:1-8 (WEB) What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also {{{be part of his resurrection}}}. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also {{{live with him}}}

Revelation 3:1-6 (NIV) 1 I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious [overcomes] will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

I tend to look towards being born again, salvation is a process that takes time for the Holy Spirit to give birth to us as new creations.

When we come to faith, this process is followed by living the new life.

We live by faith, faith is like breathing.

Our citizenship is in heaven because we are given the same privileges as Jesus Christ, being made part of His bloodline and family.

 

[fhansen]

We don't "gain" eternal life, just as we don't gain physical life.
We have absolutely no control over either.

We don't "gain" the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), who is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), just as
we don't "gain" physical birth by our parents.

The Holy Spirit enables us to remain in eternal life, just as
our parents enable us to remain in physical life.

We don't gain physical life but we certainly gain eternal life. We don't start out with it. We work it out with God who works in us, beginning with faith as the foundation.

 

[setst777]

I tend to look towards being born again, salvation is a process that takes time for the Holy Spirit to give birth to us as new creations.

Nice view. Salvation is guaranteed to those who remain in the faith.

When we come to faith, this process is followed by living the new life.

We live by faith, faith is like breathing.

The Scriptures describe faith onto salvation as:

• A test (2 Corinthians 13:5; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:6-7),
• Athletes continually training for a race (1 Corinthians 9:23-25; Hebrews 12:1-4),
• An intense striving (Philippians 1:27; Luke 13:22-27; 1 Corinthians 9:26-27; 1 Timothy 4:8-10; Hebrews 4:11-14), as in a good fight and a spiritual battle (1 Timothy 6:11-12; Ephesians 6:10-18),
• A continual sacrifice of ourselves (Romans 12:1-2; Galatians 5:24),
• A continual readiness (Matthew 24:42-44) and watchfulness (Matthew 25:13; Luke 12:35-40; Luke 21:34-36; Revelation 3:3; Revelation 16:15), alert and sober with Godly fear (1 Peter 1:13-19; 1 Peter 5:8),
• Being alert so as not to be deceived, or fall away, and be lost (Galatians 6:7-9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 2 Corinthians 11:3) or disqualified (2 Corinthians 13:5), or rejected (1 Corinthians 9:27; Hebrews 12:14-17) or cut off (John 15:1-10; Romans 11:19-22) or denied Eternal Life by the indwelling Spirit (Galatians 6:7-9; Romans 8:12-14).

We must continue steadfast in The Faith to be counted worthy to inherit the gracious free gift of eternal life (Revelation 3:1-5; Luke 21:34-36; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; Matthew 10:38-39; James 1:12; Revelation 3:11) that God will to give those who believe (John 3:16).

Remaining faithful is a continuous struggle against our flesh, and against all the dark forces that surround us, all of which tests, proves, and refines our faith as through fire; and that is why the NT Scriptures are filled with warnings to remain faithful. By a continued faith, we manifest that we are remaining in Christ, resisting evil and living holy lives of righteousness and love. The Scriptures teach us that many who are in “The Faith” will fall away and be lost as a warning.

Ephesians 6:10-18 (WEB) 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.... 18 With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

Our citizenship is in heaven because we are given the same privileges as Jesus Christ, being made part of His bloodline and family.

"Our" is referring to those who remain in the faith - those who love God. Not everyone remains in the faith.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV)
Then you will say, “Branches [the Jews to whom the Promises were made] were broken off so that I (the Gentile) might be grafted in.” That is true. They [Jews who fell] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith.
So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches [the Jews who fell, to whom the Promises were made], neither will he spare you [Gentiles who share in the Promise by faith].
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them [the Jews who fell, to whom the Promise was originally made] by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Fleshly minded people are more prone to commit deeds of the flesh, such sins as mentioned in Gal 5 and Reve 21 and 22 that lead to death. One can't be a Spirit -minded person and do such things.That'a what its about. Being and persistently living unrighteously can most certainly keep anyone from heaven.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8'12-14

Again, when it's understood that men cannot be the person he was created to be unless he's reconciled with and enters communion with God first, now under grace, then they'll better understand the gospel and understand how the following verses reconcile:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom 5:1

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:1–4).​

These are the foolish people I'm talking about.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're ok in my eyes. I wasn't judging you. I was just using your situation as an example of how people might wrongly judge you since they can't see what's going on inside your heart.

Yeah I think there are some that we can easily conclude are not really saved but I agree in most cases it would be very difficult to determine. I had two incidents at church where I questioned the validity of a person’s commitment to Christ. I was at church one day and after the sermon we always sit down together and eat and have fellowship. While I was sitting and eating with one of the brothers we were talking and he just wouldn’t stop cursing. I mean using the F word over and over and not even in a low voice or anything and I couldn’t help but think why is this guy talking this way especially IN CHURCH. I mean I can understand if it slipped out or something but he was doing it over and over repeatedly and I just sat & listened not saying anything. Another time I was talking to another brother while we were eating and he was telling me about the time when he recently took his brother in law to Mexico and took him to Boy’s Town which is a place where there’s a lot of prostitutes so that “he could learn to be a man”. I dunno I guess we talk a lot at church together and these guys see me as a friend and feel like they can confide in me but what they’re confiding seems to be that they’re not actually feeling the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins. I’m no saint but my sins aren’t intentional and when I realize what I’ve done I feel terrible and immediately apologize to God and ask for His forgiveness. If a person can sin and feel no remorse about it that’s a huge indication that they might not be saved.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Nice view. Salvation is guaranteed to those who remain in the faith.



The Scriptures describe faith onto salvation as:

• A test (2 Corinthians 13:5; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:6-7),
• Athletes continually training for a race (1 Corinthians 9:23-25; Hebrews 12:1-4),
• An intense striving (Philippians 1:27; Luke 13:22-27; 1 Corinthians 9:26-27; 1 Timothy 4:8-10; Hebrews 4:11-14), as in a good fight and a spiritual battle (1 Timothy 6:11-12; Ephesians 6:10-18),
• A continual sacrifice of ourselves (Romans 12:1-2; Galatians 5:24),
• A continual readiness (Matthew 24:42-44) and watchfulness (Matthew 25:13; Luke 12:35-40; Luke 21:34-36; Revelation 3:3; Revelation 16:15), alert and sober with Godly fear (1 Peter 1:13-19; 1 Peter 5:8),
• Being alert so as not to be deceived, or fall away, and be lost (Galatians 6:7-9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 2 Corinthians 11:3) or disqualified (2 Corinthians 13:5), or rejected (1 Corinthians 9:27; Hebrews 12:14-17) or cut off (John 15:1-10; Romans 11:19-22) or denied Eternal Life by the indwelling Spirit (Galatians 6:7-9; Romans 8:12-14).

We must continue steadfast in The Faith to be counted worthy to inherit the gracious free gift of eternal life (Revelation 3:1-5; Luke 21:34-36; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; Matthew 10:38-39; James 1:12; Revelation 3:11) that God will to give those who believe (John 3:16).

Remaining faithful is a continuous struggle against our flesh, and against all the dark forces that surround us, all of which tests, proves, and refines our faith as through fire; and that is why the NT Scriptures are filled with warnings to remain faithful. By a continued faith, we manifest that we are remaining in Christ, resisting evil and living holy lives of righteousness and love. The Scriptures teach us that many who are in “The Faith” will fall away and be lost as a warning.

Ephesians 6:10-18 (WEB) 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.... 18 With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.



"Our" is referring to those who remain in the faith - those who love God. Not everyone remains in the faith.

Romans 11:19-22 (ESV)
Then you will say, “Branches [the Jews to whom the Promises were made] were broken off so that I (the Gentile) might be grafted in.” That is true. They [Jews who fell] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith.
So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches [the Jews who fell, to whom the Promises were made], neither will he spare you [Gentiles who share in the Promise by faith].
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (WEB) Now all these things happened to them [the Jews who fell, to whom the Promise was originally made] by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

This view lacks a faith in God to keep people from falling. So I disagree with that nuance.

 

[Clare73]

We don't gain physical life but we certainly gain eternal life.

Nope. . .eternal life is the result of the sovereign new birth by the sovereign Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

We don't start out with it. We work it out with God who works in us, beginning with faith as the foundation.

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yeah I think there are some that we can easily conclude are not really saved but I agree in most cases it would be very difficult to determine. I had two incidents at church where I questioned the validity of a person’s commitment to Christ. I was at church one day and after the sermon we always sit down together and eat and have fellowship. While I was sitting and eating with one of the brothers we were talking and he just wouldn’t stop cursing. I mean using the F word over and over and not even in a low voice or anything and I couldn’t help but think why is this guy talking this way especially IN CHURCH. I mean I can understand if it slipped out or something but he was doing it over and over repeatedly and I just sat & listened not saying anything. Another time I was talking to another brother while we were eating and he was telling me about the time when he recently took his brother in law to Mexico and took him to Boy’s Town which is a place where there’s a lot of prostitutes so that “he could learn to be a man”. I dunno I guess we talk a lot at church together and these guys see me as a friend and feel like they can confide in me but what they’re confiding seems to be that they’re not actually feeling the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins. I’m no saint but my sins aren’t intentional and when I realize what I’ve done I feel terrible and immediately apologize to God and ask for His forgiveness. If a person can sin and feel no remorse about it that’s a huge indication that they might not be saved.

I wouldn't be able to see inside their hearts either, so I would just conclude they may not be saved and look for an opportunity to help them over the line.

 

[setst777]

This view lacks a faith in God to keep people from falling. So I disagree with that nuance.

If the Scriptures disagree with you, then your plan is to go with what you desire to believe. And you think that by doing so, God will save you. Is that correct?

Paul did not consider his own faith, or that of Timothy, secure or guaranteed. Here is what Paul taught regarding Timothy’s certainty in the Gospel:

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Paul, likewise, did not consider his own salvation secure unless he remained faithful to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If the Scriptures disagree with you, then your plan is to go with what you desire to believe. And you think that by doing so, God will save you. Is that correct?

However the bible really does say God is able to keep us from falling. Since everything that does not come from faith is a sin and your theology lacks a faith in a God who is able to do such a thing, it is a wrong theology.

Regardless of whatever points you appear to be making, the underlying theology comes from a lack of faith in God and must start over from the beginning.

One must remember that even the devil can quote scripture, and even one of the apostles was called the devil after being called a chip off the old block. Just making a point is not good enough, so I must reject said theology.

 

[setst777]

However the bible really does say God is able to keep us from falling. Since everything that does not come from faith is a sin and your theology lacks a faith in a God who is able to do such a thing, it is a wrong theology.

Regardless of whatever points you appear to be making, the underlying theology comes from a lack of faith in God and must start over from the beginning.

One must remember that even the devil can quote scripture, and even one of the apostles was called the devil after being called a chip off the old block. Just making a point is not good enough, so I must reject said theology.

You neglected the context for "Jude 1:24." The context for "Jude 1:21-24" was already quoted and explained.

In addition, you neglected to respond to the few other Scriptures I provided regarding Paul's warning to Timothy, and how Paul viewed his own salvation.

In addition, you neglected to respond to "Romans 11:19-22" and "1 Corinthians 10:11," both of which address the same issue; in that, true believers can be cut off if they do not remain faithful; so, believers are warned against falling away.

In addition, you rejected all the Scriptures I provided to show that "faith" is not just like breathing, but is a continuous struggle and fight.

In addition, even though I gave not just a few Scriptures that teach that "The Faith" of the Gospel by which God chooses to save us includes repentance and discipleship, which is symbolized in Baptism, you refused to address any of those Scriptures. Rather, you ignored all those Scriptures to hold onto your assumptions.

What you desire to do is isolate a quote out of context from the Scriptures, and ignore all other Scriptures that disagree with your view, and then supply your own meaning, which is called: distorting the Scriptures, just as Satan did when trying to tempt Lord Jesus. You also like to put your own assumptions above God's Word; so, you will ignore all those Scriptures that disagree with your assumptions.

Just so you know, all those who deliberately distort and twist God's Word will have to give an account to him at the Judgment: 2 Peter 3:16

Therefore, there is no point in discussing what the Scriptures teach with you, since you are content at ignoring the context, and distorting the Scriptures to support your own assumptions. Go your own way now until your time is complete on this earth, as I will not spend one more second dialoguing with a closed mind.

 

[AbbaLove]

Nice view. Salvation is guaranteed to those who remain in the faith.

"Our" is referring to those who remain in the faith - those who love God.

Yes, not everyone remains faithful in their religion.
.
"in the faith" can be interrupted as faith in the Law or faith in the RCC or faith in TUPIL Calvinism or even faith in Christianity.

Many "Christians" interrupt His Word based on their theology that they think is the correct order ensuring one's Salvation.

 

[setst777]

Nope. . .eternal life is the result of the sovereign new birth by the sovereign Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

The new birth (spiritual life) is by the indwelling Spirit in the New Covenant in Christ, which is what you believe.

Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit wills to indwell everyone who believes to give them spiritual life, and this only takes place in the New Covenant.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

John 4:14 (WEB) Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

Galatians 3:2 (WEB) 2 I just want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

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Philippians 1:29 (WEB) 29 Because it has been granted [5483 xarízomai] to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf,

In Philippians 1:29, God is not giving [1435 dṓron] your faith and suffering; rather, the gracious privilege is bestowed [5483 xarízomai] {{{to you}}} to believe [active] and suffer [active] for Christ.

The emphasis is on the person to believe (active) and suffer (active) for Christ, which has been graciously granted to them to do.

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Act 13:48 KJV 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

In Acts 13:48, does not say how they were appointed. Therefore, in regards to "appointed," we could say that the ones appointed to eternal life by the foreknowledge of God are the ones who believed, which is because of the Gospel that was preached to them (Romans 10:17).

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Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

Through the gracious invitation of the Gospel (Acts 18:28), we come to believe in Lord Jesus – to whoever believes (Romans 10:17).

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2 Peter 1:1 (WEB) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

This Passage does not say that God gives them faith; rather, Paul is addressing his Epistle to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. This is all because of the Gospel.

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Romans 12:3 (WEB) 3 For I say through the grace that was given me, to every man who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of faith.

In context, this Passage is addressed to the Roman Christians, and is discussing the gifts of the Spirit given to these believers, and the measure of faith to operate in those gifts.

Romans 12:3-8 (WEB) 3 For I say through the grace that was given me, to every man who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of faith. 4 For [explanation follows] even as we have many members in one body, and all the members don’t have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another, 6 having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us: if prophecy, let’s prophesy according to the proportion of our faith; 7 or service, let’s give ourselves to service; or he who teaches, to his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, to his exhorting; he who gives, let him do it with generosity; he who rules, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

 

[AbbaLove]

The final proof of one's SALVATION is God's Justification before it's possible to receive eternal life with a glorified body.

10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

As early as 325 AD, if not earlier, one's "justification" was being interpretated as effectively occurring when a new convert of the faith was "washed" (cleansed) and not before receiving a glorified body. Evidence of this religious change of order is evident by Clare73 and millions of other religious Christians that believe Paul's order is "wrong" (1 Cor 6:11).

Clare73 said:​

Salvation results in a glorified body, because ...​

... salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)​

... even an infant (of Christian parents) that was sprinkle with holy water (washed/born again). Protestantism likewise saw the advantage of drawing more converts to the reformed faith of similar theology with "justification" occurring at one's baptism (spiritual washing).

It's quite obvious from the many posts in this thread that some Christians starting out as "justified" remain nominal, lukewrm or backslide becoming unfaithful, therefore losing what was an initial justification or were never "saved/justified" so as to receive eternal life with a glorified body.

Once justified always justified (OJAJ) may be as tenuous as OSAS. True justification is only possible being Faithful in Him to their last breathe. However one that's faithful to the RCC 'sor TUPIL Calvinism believes OSAS and OJAJ. Yet the Apostle Paul 's order is with "justification" following "sanctification" NOT folliwing "wash" (cleansing). Even Clare73 agrees that once cleansed is no guarantee of continued cleansing.

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Thus Paul's order is the correct order; whereas Clare73's order is premature with true Justification not possible if say a seeker-sensitive Believer later backslides from Faith in Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

However the bible really does say God is able to keep us from falling. Since everything that does not come from faith is a sin and your theology lacks a faith in a God who is able to do such a thing, it is a wrong theology.

Regardless of whatever points you appear to be making, the underlying theology comes from a lack of faith in God and must start over from the beginning.

One must remember that even the devil can quote scripture, and even one of the apostles was called the devil after being called a chip off the old block. Just making a point is not good enough, so I must reject said theology.

On the contrary what Setst777 is teaching has evidence to support it going all the way back to the apostolic churches.

You said “regardless of what points you’re making”. He’s quoting scriptures, surely you don’t mean regardless of what these scriptures that he’s quoting say. When we’re presented with scriptures that contradict our theology we have to reevaluate our theology. Sound doctrine isn’t derived from incorporating certain passages and ignoring others. We have to compare all scripture together to formulate a theology that coincides with all scripture seamlessly and flawlessly in order to consider it sound doctrine. So we need to take the passages that appear to support eternal security and the passages that appear to support conditional salvation and determine how both can be true. That’s the only way we can arrive at a sound theology.