SALVATION

[setst777]

I think it has since today it is common to say the basis of salvation is Jesus Christ.

True. And that is what all sects and denominations of Christianity agree with, including, I would say, the Christian cults.

 

[Clare73]

You've maybe heard this before that someone noticed an old man sitting in the back and found out it was the Apostle John. He was encouraged to come forward bringing a message of encoragement from the Lord. His message was brief ... "Love OneAnother".

Doesn't your order of SALVATION with justification preceding sanctification apply only to those that receive the Prize?

Seems you don't understand what justification is.

Justification is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sin removed.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness, which is sanctification (Ro 6:19).

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin through faith in the atoning work and person of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).

How can you be justified (declared not guilty, sin removed, acquitted) before it actually takes place in salvation?

Considering the state of modern Christianity with only one foot, hand, eye in His church; while the other foot, hand, eye (soul) is in the world. So does your order with justification before sanctifction stand the test of time assuming every justified seeker will finish the race and win the prize (glorified body)?

"faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection --> glorification (immortal, sinless, glorious body like Christ's)"​

Paul's order takes into consideration that total "justification" isn't possible even though initially justifed. A Believer with good intentions may decide that living a Christian life is too demanding or no fun or brings persecution or possibly even death.

Then they were never saved and justified in the first place, they were tares, not wheat.

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

Paul in both verses is referring to those born again Christians for final justification (winners receiving the prize) not initial justified grace. Does one's initial justification guarantee them finishing the race and winning the prize? The following MSG translaation is referring to those Christians that win the prize (eternal life-glorified body) having received justification to receive a glorified body.

Romans 8:30 (MSG)​

After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun.​

1 Cor 9:24 ..."Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it". And considering the Parable of the Sower: Some seed doesn't germinate. Some nominal/lukewarm seed lacks nutrients. Some potential seed is innoculated so as to produce 30, 60 100 fold, but for some reason the yield is disappointing.
Your comment "the pot calling the kettle black" is a good example of the disunity within Christendom (lacking love) Each Christian theologian can preceive what they consider a blind spot in another Christian's eye, but any attempt to point out a blind spot in their own eye ... lookout or they may call you "the pot" even inferring that the Apostle Paul's order is "wrong" (1 Cor 6:11).

Your order is the prevalent order being Christendom defines initial justification followed by sanctification for every truly, truly born again Christian. The problem is that too many Christains don't go on to live a sanctified life by being dead to sin and being alive in Christ having the indwelling empowerment of the Holy Spirit to win the race and receive the prize.

Then they were never really saved and justified in the first place. They were simply tares that look like wheat.

 

[Clare73]

All seeker-sensitive "followers" are told they are "justified" when they made a decision of public confession of their "faith" in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Are not most all branch "followers" (baptized churchgoers) in the kingdom under the impression that they were "justiied" when they made a public confession of their faith in their Lord Christ Jesus as their Savior?
Yet the tares and fruitless branches are under the false impression that they are still "justified" according to their church doctrine. What if they lose their first love becoming nominal, lukewarm believers based on John 3:16 as they consider themsleves to be among the "whosoever" being "justified" as if they never sinned and possibly under the impression of church doctrine even sanctified.

Maybe now you can see where Paul is coming from in 1 Corinthians 6:11

They may come across as devout followers of the Word, e.g. Pharisees, (John 8:44)

Was the idea of "Justification" first an indoctrination going back to 325 AD and become so ingrained that once "justified" a Christian can't lost their "justification" to eternal life with a glorified body? And so the real question (OSAS) were they really "saved" (justified) OR can a Christian lose their initial justification ...

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already [b]clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [c]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.​

The order of SALVATION (referred to as the "Gokden Chain") presented by the Apostle Paul implies that real "JUSTIFICATION" and thereby SALVATION) is only known for certainty by God. Thus Paul's following order should not so quickly be cited by you as the "wrong" order with sanctified before justified ...

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

How can you be justified (declared not guilty, sin removed, acquitted) before it actually takes place in salvation?

See post #405.

 

[fhansen]

I think it has since today it is common to say the basis of salvation is Jesus Christ.

Okay, but I don't see where that's a change from the past

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Okay, but I don't see where that's a change from the past

It was more incontrast to the focus of the OP.

 

[fhansen]

It was more incontrast to the focus of the OP.

I see. I guess for me it's a given here that Christ is the reason and purpose behind it all. He's what makes the of life grace even possible

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I see. I guess for me it's a given here that Christ is the reason and purpose behind it all. He's what makes the of life grace even possible

A lot is involved in salvation, so a discussion is always best.

 

[fhansen]

A lot is involved in salvation, so a discussion is always best.

True enough. Either way the basis of the question in the OP concerns specifically whether or not a person needs to be and act righteously in order to gain eternal life.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

True enough. Either way the basis of the question in the OP concerns specifically whether or not a person needs to be and act righteously in order to gain eternal life.

Since it is "He" who will keep us from falling, and "He" who knows who is saved or not - from a human observational perspective .. it's all guess work.

 

[fhansen]

Since it is "He" who will keep us from falling, and "He" who knows who is saved or not - from a human observational perspective .. it's all guess work.

Yes, we can't know with perfect certainty who will ultimately be saved and who will not-that's His territory to know for sure. But He most certainly gives us guidelines, that a Christian would be known by their love- and by the fruit that should come forth from that love.

 

[AbbaLove]

Seems you don't understand what justification is.

Justification is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sin removed.
It is a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness, which is sanctification (Ro 6:19).

Your theological understanding is beyond reproach. Where did you earn your PhD degree(s)?

Scripture passages on justificaton can be interpreted as either before sanctification, with ongoing sanctification and as the final result of the finishing Faith in Christ. Depending on one's church doctrine and/or allowing His Word via His Holy Spirit as your Lord and primary counselor / teacher.

The RCC as well as Protestantism would agree with your order instead of Paul's order (1 Corinthians 6:11) with Justification following sanctification, instead of your order with justification preceding sanctification.

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

​

Possibly as early as 325 AD (if not earlier) the "mother church" of Christendom decided (as the Vicar of Christ) that Paul's order was wrong with "justification" taking place as early when an infant of Christian parents is sprinkled with "holy water" and born again.​

The Pope stands in the place of Jesus Himself as The "Vicar of Christ on earth."​

Protestants realizing the rational of RCC "salvation theology"... likewise choose to believe that dear Paul's order was wrong (1 Corinthians 6:11). Both (RCC and Protestantism) may also believe that dear Paul was also wrong when he talks about ... "working out one's salvation with fear and trembling."

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin through faith in the atoning work and person of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25)

Whose faith? The doctrinal faith of the "mother church" and Protestant churches and the faith of a new Christian that is assured that their past, present and even future sins are already forgiven (without repentance?) Religion by it's very nature is either very demanding or tells a new seeker-sensitive convert what they would prefer hearing.

How can you be justified (declared not guilty, sin removed, acquitted) before it actually takes place in salvation?

Your question goes to show how you have been indoctrinated by centuries of the mother church believing that Paul's order is wrong. What you need to do is see that you're order of Salvation has been perpetuated for centuries by Christendom, but according to Paul was apparently not the undertanding during the early 1st century "church". Only the true "church" can be "justified" by living a holy, righteous (sanctified life) before being JUSTIFIED to receive glorified body..

​

A seeker-sensitive believer is drawn to Jesus by inspiring testimonies of the Wonder-Working Power: Unexplained Healings, Miracles, Deliverances, Wisdom, Words of Knowledge and testimonies of His Abiding LOVE. And as Paul says running the race with such Persistence, Grace & Love against at times what seems to be Mission Impossible, but yet prevail in Him and receive the Salvation Prize (glorified body).

According to your theology (order of Salvation) ... you interpret justification scrptures as taking place before sanctification with new converts being first "justified", but a lackluster track record of holy righteousness. Some church doctrine also tells the parents that when and infant, child or adult is water baptized they are also sanctified as well as justified.

Then they were never saved and justified in the first place, they were tares, not wheat.

That's a far-flung "tare" conclusion ... So your theology is that they are first "saved" and then "justified" but not really if they remain a nominal, lukewarm Believer

When it comes to nomnal lukewarm christians (of which there are more than a few in America they are not tares just lackluster with one foot in church and the other foot in the world. They may only attend church a few times a year ... maybe just Easter Service and Christmas primarily for the kids. Then when they fill out a Barna survey they count themselves as Christian (maybe even born again).

So according to a Barna Poll America is a Christian nation with millions and millions of "born again" Believers. Many Believers have repeated a prayer over TV by Church Pastor evangelist that tells them they are now "born again". Would you really consider these thousands upon thousands to be tares ... didn't think so.

Do you consider a 7th-Day Christian to be a tare ... didn't think so. Do you consider a back-sliding Christian that only attends churches when a special guest speaker is bringing an interesting message e.g. about UFOs, location of Noah's Ark, the Rpture, etc. to be a tare ... didn't think so either. The speaker could possibly be a tare, but not necesairly being a Christain who believes Christianity should be Fun. He/she is a "born again" Christian and in fact may have a special calling.to witness to ungrounded Believers that prefer a little entertainment in a service ... like the Pastor telling a funny joke/story before he brings a message of feeling good about yourself and self-worth.

In the parables to the Jews, you can be in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

So could that likewise apply to some in Christendom, but not truly of Faith? Now we know how to distinquish between in and of according to your theologsical interpretations

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, we can't know with perfect certainty who will ultimately be saved and who will not-that's His territory to know for sure. But He most certainly gives us guidelines, that a Christian would be known by their love- and by the fruit that should come forth from that love.

It does give good guidelines for self examination for sure.

If something brings about bad fruit, use another seed... so to speak.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Then you are in unbelief of the the word of God in Eph 2:8-9.

???

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok you took my quote of Jesus from Matthew 7 and didn’t apply what I said in my posts before that. I specifically said that I struggled with cursing for about a year after I came to Christ. But there was a difference in my cursing after I came to Christ because I would catch myself doing it and I would stop and ask for forgiveness. I didn’t just keep on cursing like I had been doing my whole life like it was no big deal, I was making a conscious effort to rid myself of that kind of behavior because the Holy Spirit was convicting me of my sin. This is why I said it depends on the circumstances. When I cursed it was because it was a natural part of my vocabulary before I came to Christ, it wasn’t because I didn’t feel that it wasn’t important to stop doing it. It’s one thing to stumble in sin but it’s a completely different scenario when a person repeatedly indulges in sin and doesn’t have any remorse whatsoever about it.

You're ok in my eyes. I wasn't judging you. I was just using your situation as an example of how people might wrongly judge you since they can't see what's going on inside your heart.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Amazing how you mock God's Word and His Gospel with your remarks. You are not worthy of any further response.

I don't like arguing with the sinless perfection crowd, but I can do it effectively if someone tries to cram it down my throat.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

True enough. Either way the basis of the question in the OP concerns specifically whether or not a person needs to be and act righteously in order to gain eternal life.

You're exactly right. Does a person need to be righteous and act righteously in order to obtain eternal life? That is the question.

The answer is "No". Only unrighteous people are saved from the penalties for their sins. Righteous people don't need to be saved from anything.

 

[fhansen]

You're exactly right. Does a person need to be righteous and act righteously in order to obtain eternal life? That is the question.

The answer is "No". Only unrighteous people are saved from the penalties for their sins. Righteous people don't need to be saved from anything.

But there are no righteous people, of course, not apart from God, anyway. We all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins, but unto righteousness- so that we become "slaves to righteousness" now instead of continuing to be "slaves to sin" that leads to death (Rom 6).

 

[setst777]

Since it is "He" who will keep us from falling, and "He" who knows who is saved or not - from a human observational perspective .. it's all guess work.

When we study God's Word, we must be careful to read the context, lest we naively distort the Scriptures to our own destruction.

Jude 1:21-25 (WEB)
21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22 On some have compassion, making a distinction, 23 and some save, snatching them out of the fire with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.
24 Now to him who is able to keep them from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory in great joy, 25 to God our Savior, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.

If we "believers" keep ourselves in God's Love, then God is able to keep the faithful from falling; in that, he will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able to bear (1 Corinthians 10:13). God provides us a way out of temptation, but the Christian is responsible to take the way out.

For instance, have you ever been tempted to sin, and did you sin? Did God provide you the way out of that temptation? If so, then why did you fall into temptation?

God is able to keep us from falling by the indwelling Holy Spirit leading the believer. However, the Spirit of God indwelling us will only lead those to eternal life who continue to walk and sow to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) Paul warns the Galatian Christians 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) Paul warns the Roman Christians12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Because many Christians, who have the Spirit indwelling them, will not remain faithful; and so, even though God's Spirit leads the Christian, and able to keep him from falling, this only happens as the Christian follows as the Spirit leads, because many will:

• Grieve the indwelling Spirit (Ephesians 4:17-32),
• Quench the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19),
• Insult/Enrage the indwelling Spirit (Hebrews 10:24-31),
• Reject God and His indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),
• Lie to the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:3), and
• Test the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:9).

And so, Paul warns the Born-Again Christian to keep in step with the Spirit so he does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and so, continue to remain in Him.

Galatians 5:16 (WEB) But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

So, if the Christian keeps himself in God's Love, manifested by carefully walking in God's Spirit indwelling him, then God is able to keep him from falling.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So, if the Christian keeps himself in God's Love, manifested by carefully walking in God's Spirit indwelling him, then God is able to keep him from falling.

That doesn't sound much better than the previous covenant if it's based on the human messing things up. Did Jesus die for nothing? In any case, what Paul was so convinced about was really all that common? I guess only Paul was convinced of such a thing.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

But there are no righteous people, of course, not apart from God, anyway. We all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins, but unto righteousness- so that we become "slaves to righteousness" now instead of continuing to be "slaves to sin" that leads to death (Rom 6).

Correct. That's why the answer to "the basis of the question in the OP concerns specifically whether or not a person needs to be and act righteously in order to gain eternal life" is "not". No one will gain eternal life on the basis of being righteous and acting righteously.

And I agree with you that when we are saved we become slaves of righteousness. This is true, however, only of the inner man. The flesh is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are no longer slaves of the flesh, and we are under no obligation to fulfil it's desires. But the only way to not fulfil its desires is to walk in lock step with the Spirit.

Fleshly minded people tend to focus on the deeds of the flesh. They tend to think it can be trained to be good. And they tend to measure their success by the quantity and qulaity of its sins they suppress. But the true victors rise above the flesh, accept that there is no condemnation for its sins and sinfulness, do not try to conform the flesh to the requirements of the law, believe the truth that they are married to the one who was raised from the dead, and serve Him in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter.