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Clare73

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You don’t know anything about the word of God. You’re too blinded by your doctrines to comprehend it. When you have to resort to such madness as to say that satan joins people to Christ in order to hang on to your doctrines that’s a clear indication that you’ve completely lost the ability to comprehend God’s word.
Your mixing the metaphors. . .seed from Satan = dead branches in the vine.
That's not how metaphors work.
Both metaphors are about the kingdom of God, but they are not equal, Satan is not dead branches.

The branches of the parable are the kingdom (of Christ, the vine),
as the wheat and tares are the kingdom (of Christ, the farmer).
The severed branch of the kingdom does not bear fruit because it is cut-off (by unbelief) from the vine, Christ,
and the tares (by nature; i.e. unregenrate) are not fruit (edible) and are burned because they are not wheat.

Only the abiding branch, the wheat and the sheep are the saved.
 
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setst777

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Your mixing the metaphors. . .seed from Satan = dead branches in the vine.
That's not how metaphors work.
They are not equal, they are simpy both in the kingdom.

The branches of the parable are the kingdom (of Christ, the vine),
as the wheat and tares of the parable are the kingdom (of Christ, the farmer).
The severed branch of the kingdom does not bear fruit because it is cut-off (by unbelief) from the vine, Christ,
and the tares are burned because they are not wheat.

Only the abiding branch, the wheat and the sheep are the saved.

When Lord Jesus gave that illustration, it was directed to those who followed him - the disciples who were listening to His words.

Lord Jesus is not saying any of the branches are dead; but rather, that those who do not bear fruit will be cut off, because they do not remain in His Word, bearing much fruit. And so, Lord Jesus was saying to the Branches (those who follow Him) to remain Him (and His words) so that they will bear much fruit, just as Lord Jesus also kept His Father's commandments and remain in His love.

John 18:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

This illustration is very similar to "Romans 11:19-24," in which the branches that did not continue in the faith will be cut off from the Holy Root, just like the natural branches did (the Jews) who fell away. So God shows no favoritism; for, if God did not spare the natural branches who fell away, then neither will he spare the Gentiles who share in the Promises made to Israel through faith.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And these illustrations are what the Scriptures teach about born-again Christians; they are responsible to continue in the faith, diligent to sow to the Spirit without giving up to receive Eternal Life from the Spirit indwelling them:

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) Paul warns the Galatian Christians 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) Paul warns the Roman Christians12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
 
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Clare73

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When Lord Jesus gave that illustration, it was directed to those who followed him - the disciples who were listening to His words.
Keeping in mind that not everyone who was a disciple was a true disciple, some were counterfeit disciples (Jn 6:66).
Lord Jesus is not saying any of the branches are dead; but rather, that those who do not bear fruit will be cut off,
Indeed. . .thanks! I got it backwards, no fruit is the reason for cutting off.

No fruit and tares are counterfeit disciples, which are not saved.

Both true disciples (saved) and counterfeit disciples (not saved) are in the kingdom of the parables spoken to the Jews,

whereas in the NT, only the born-again are in the kingdom of God.
 
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setst777

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Keeping in mind that not everyone who was a disciple was a true disciple, some were counterfeit disciples (Jn 6:66).

Indeed. . .thanks! I got it backwards, no fruit is the reason for cutting off.

No fruit and tares are counterfeit disciples, which are not saved.

Both true disciples (saved) and counterfeit disciples (not saved) are in the kingdom of the parables spoken to the Jews,

whereas in the NT, only the born-again are in the kingdom of God.

There is no teaching in "John 15" that some of the branches in Christ are counterfeit, and others are true branches. Lord Jesus is directing his teaching to those who are following him, that they are to remain in him, His Word, by obedience, just as Lord Jesus also remained by obeying His Father.

Lord Jesus gives critical evidence showing these are true disciples he was teaching; in that:
  • Lord Jesus compares himself to his disciples – to remain in him by obedience to His words, just as he remains in the Father by obedience to him (John 15:8-10);
  • Lord Jesus said they are already pruned because of the words He spoke to them (John 15:3).
  • Lord Jesus said that ‘just as the Father loved him, so also, Lord Jesus loved them’ [John 15:9].
All of this critical evidence shows they are true disciples he was teaching.

Therefore, Lord Jesus is not saying any of the branches are dead or counterfeit; but rather, that those who do not remain in him, and His words, bearing much fruit, will be cut off. And so,

Lord Jesus was saying to the Branches – those who follow Him, and who were pruned, and whom he loved, to remain in Him (and His words) so that they will bear much fruit and so remain in his love, just as Lord Jesus also kept His Father's commandments and remains in His love.

John 18:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

This illustration is very similar to "Romans 11:19-24," in which the branches that did not continue in the faith will be cut off from the Holy Root, just like the natural branches did (the Jews) who fell away. So God shows no favoritism; for, if God did not spare the natural branches who fell away, then neither will he spare the Gentiles who share in the Promises made to Israel through faith.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And these illustrations are what the Scriptures teach about born-again Christians; they are responsible to continue in the faith, diligent to sow to the Spirit without giving up to receive Eternal Life from the Spirit indwelling them:

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) Paul warns the Galatian Christians 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) Paul warns the Roman Christians12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your mixing the metaphors. . .seed from Satan = dead branches in the vine.
That's not how metaphors work.
The metaphors are both about the kingdom of God, but they are not equal, Satan is not dead branches.

The branches of the parable are the kingdom (of Christ, the vine),
as the wheat and tares are the kingdom (of Christ, the farmer).
The severed branch of the kingdom does not bear fruit because it is cut-off (by unbelief) from the vine, Christ,
and the tares (by nature; i.e. unregenrate) are not fruit (edible) and burned because they are not wheat.

Only the abiding branch, the wheat and the sheep are the saved.
Jesus specifically used the word IN ME. You don’t want to acknowledge that because it refutes your theology so you have to change the meaning of the passage so that it doesn’t refute your theology. That’s why you say that the parable of the Vine is referring to the kingdom instead of those who are in Christ. I’m taking the passage for what it says. I’m not changing anything about either parable in order to reconcile it with my theology because I don’t have to because my theology isn’t contradictory to any passages. So if you’re going to say that the broken off branches are tares who were joined to Christ then I’m going to point out your error by pointing out that no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them and the passage concerning the wheat and tares specifically says that the tares were planted by the enemy, not by The Father. So if you’re going to persist in saying that the branches who were cut off from Christ by The Father are tares then I’m going to persist in saying that you’re teaching that tares are joined to Christ by satan because that’s who planted the tares in the field. Your interpretation doesn’t work because your theology isn’t biblical.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Keeping in mind that not everyone who was a disciple was a true disciple, some were counterfeit disciples (Jn 6:66).
Also keeping in mind Judas had already left the room and only His 11 faithful apostles were with him and throughout the entire message He repeatedly said YOU YOU YOU. And yet you want to pretend that He was referring to someone else who was not even in the room. The word YOU has nothing to do with anyone else.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No fruit and tares are counterfeit disciples, which are not saved.
Both of which are planted by satan and not joined to Christ. No one can come to Me unless The Father draws them.
 
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AbbaLove

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Both true disciples (saved) and counterfeit disciples (not saved) are in the kingdom of the parables spoken to the Jews,

whereas in the NT, only the born-again are in the kingdom of God.
It would help any misunderstanding by others if you would refer to a couple parables where the counterfeit disciples "are in the kingdom" (of God?) IF that is what you believe?

One could also assume that when you wrote "are in the kingdom" that you were referring to the kingdom of satan. Did you mean the kingdom of God OR the kingdom of satan? ...

"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" (Matthew 12:25–29; Mark 3:23–27; Luke 11:17–22)
When you say "counterfeit disciples" are you referring to so-called disciples (under demonic influence) that are attempting to lead the "elect" down a slippery slope?​
 
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Clare73

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Jesus specifically used the word IN ME.
In the parables to the Jews, you can be in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

Not so in the doctrine of the epistles. Only those of/in Christ are in the kingdom.

You are conflating the two.
Also keeping in mind Judas had already left the room and only His 11 faithful apostles were with him and throughout the entire message He repeatedly said YOU YOU YOU. And yet you want to pretend that He was referring to someone else who was not even in the room. The word YOU has nothing to do with anyone else.
And?

That has nothing to do with the doctrine of wheat, fruitful branch (true faith) and tares (counterfeit faith, fruitless branch)
both presented as in the kingdom, where the tares in the kingdom will be burned and the fruitless branch in the kingdom will be cut off.

In the NT epistles, there are no tares nor fruitless branches in Christ, the kingdom (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20).
Both of which are planted by satan and not joined to Christ. No one can come to Me unless The Father draws them.
The branches and the wheat were not planted by Satan.
 
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Clare73

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There is no teaching in "John 15" that some of the branches in Christ are counterfeit, and others are true branches.
Fruitless branches are like tares, fruitful branches are like wheat.

Tares get burned because they are not wheat. . . were never wheat. . .nor can they become wheat.

Goats are condemned because they are not sheep. . .were never sheep. . .nor can they become sheep.

Likewise, fruitless branches are not of the kingdom, they are only in the kingdom,
just as tares and goats are not of the kingdom, they are only in the kingdom.

You must be of the kingdom to be in Christ.
 
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Clare73

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It would help any misunderstanding by others if you would refer to a couple parables where the counterfeit disciples "are in the kingdom" (of God?) IF that is what you believe?
Parable of the field (Mt 13:24-30) and parable of the branches of the vine (Jn 15:1-6).

Some grain (followers) is in the kingdom (by external appearance as grain), but not of the kingdom (by internal nature of the grain--regenerated).
Some branches (followers) are in the kingdom (by external appearance as a branch), but not of the kingdom (by internal production of fruit).
One could also assume that when you wrote "are in the kingdom" that you were referring to the kingdom of satan. Did you mean the kingdom of God OR the kingdom of satan? ...
Jesus' parables are about the kingdom of God.

The field (kingdom) that was planted belonged to the man, not to Satan. Satan simply scattered some weeds in the man's field.
The branches (kingdom) belonged to (were of) the vine, where some branches produced fruit and some did not.
The tares and fruitless branches were in the kingdom (externally), but not of the kingdom (internally).

Some grain (followers) is in the kingdom (by external appearance as grain),
but not of the kingdom (by internal nature of the grain--regenerated).

Some branches (followers) are in the kingdom (by external appearance as a branch),
but not of the kingdom (by internal production of fruit--regenerated).
"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" (Matthew 12:25–29; Mark 3:23–27; Luke 11:17–22)
When you say "counterfeit disciples" are you referring to so-called disciples (under demonic influence) that are attempting to lead the "elect" down a slippery slope?​
I am referring to all those of Christianity who profess faith, while some do not actually possess faith (tares, fruitless branches, goats).
 
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setst777

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Fruitless branches are like tares, fruitful branches are like wheat.

Tares get burned because they are not wheat. . . were never wheat. . .nor can they become wheat.

Goats are condemned because they are not sheep. . .were never sheep. . .nor can they become sheep.

Likewise, fruitless branches are not of the kingdom, they are only in the kingdom,
just as tares and goats are not of the kingdom, they are only in the kingdom.

You must be of the kingdom to be in Christ.

Well, Clare, I suppose one could interpret "John 15:1-10" the way you describe; so, I will not question you further about "John 15:1-10."

I would, of course, disagree, because Lord Jesus appears to be teaching this Parable to His disciples as an admonishment and warning; in that, they must remain in His Word and bear fruit to continue to remain in Him, just as Lord Jesus himself did. I do not get the idea that Lord Jesus is teaching them about wheat and tears, or believers and unbelievers.

Nevertheless, I see how you are viewing it, and there is no point of discussing the Passage with you any further. In fact, "John 15:1-10" is one of those Passages I rarely refer to for that very reason.

However, the other Passages I listed are referring to those who are Christians (indwelt by the Spirit, feeding from, and being connected to, the Root). They are true believers who are in Christ (the Holy Root within whom all the Promises are given) but were warned and admonished against falling away from the faith, lest they be cut off - meaning: the Spirit indwelling them would no longer give them Eternal Life. For if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews) who fell, then neither would he spare the Gentiles who did not remain faithful.

In "Romans 11:19-24," the branches that did not continue in the faith will be cut off from the Holy Root, just like the natural branches did (the Jews) who fell away. So, God shows no favoritism; for, if God did not spare the natural branches who fell away, to whom the Promises were made, then neither will he spare the Gentiles who only later share in the Promises made to Israel through faith.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And these illustrations are what the Scriptures teach about born-again Christians; they are responsible to continue in the faith, diligent to sow to the Spirit without giving up to receive Eternal Life from the Spirit indwelling them:

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) Paul warns the Galatian Christians 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) Paul warns the Roman Christians12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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We all agree that salvation is by faith, not by works.
No we do not all agree on this point.
However, a true Gospel Faith by which God saves us always includes repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10), which is also stated by Lord Jesus in the Great Commission (Luke 24:44-47), and of which God commands all people everywhere to do lest they be judged and condemned (Acts 17:30-32), and of which Baptism represents - a baptism in which the sinner commits to being a disciple, following Him (Matthew 28:19-20) to share in His resurrection (Romans 6:1-8).

This is the only Faith by which we may be cleansed of any sins the true believers do commit in weakness.
You can't hide "works" by defining them as "faith".
1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore, a Gospel Faith, by which God has chosen to save us, always includes a commitment to renounce sin, and then, to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.
I know. You and your buddies are perfect. You always follow through on your commitment you made to the Lord before He saved you. And He could see the geuinness of your commitment and knew you would always do what pleased Him, so he wiped out your past infractions and set you completely free of sin. That's great. Now you can sit in judgement with Him on the rest of us who are still beset with the presence of the flesh.
1 John 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Those who do not manifest their faith in good deeds are counterfeit Christians (Matthew 25:31-46).
Yep, that's it. You got it.
Sure, such counterfeit Christians may truly believe the Gospel, they believe everything about Lord Jesus, but they refuse to repent to commit their lives to be His disciples - followers. And Lord Jesus will only save those whose faith is manifested in listening to him and following him (John 10:27-28).
Counterfeit Christians... One sin proves you're commitment was fake. Actually, that makes perfect sense.
The Faith of the Gospel, therefore, is a faith onto good works, obeying all things Lord Jesus commands of us (Matthew 28:19-20). and is the only "faith" by which God's Spirit will indwell anyone to give them life.

John 14:15-16 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23
(WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
Poor, poor counterfeit Christians. They lose out on everything.
Even if born-again Christians should start again to deliberately continue living unsanctified lives in any sin or sins, they show that they have rejected the faith, rejected God, and rejected the Spirit dwelling in them - and they will be condemned.
That's terrible. A person can become perfectly holy and perfectly righteous by making a genuine commitment to be a disciple of the Lord, but then reject it and lose it all. Oh, what a tragedy.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (WEB) Finally then, brothers, we beg and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, that you abound more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.
Better walk that line or else.
Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

That is The Faith of the Gospel by which God elects to save anyone by His grace.
Yep, saved by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone boast. Got it.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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You will know them by their fruits. Those are Jesus’ words.
We could apply that here.

I see someone cursing, and I say those fruits prove he isn't saved. I know it because I see the fruit. That doesn't change the person with foul language's salvation. He might be saved, or he might not be. But my judgement of his salvation makes me a judge with an evil heart. Someone may observe my judgemental disposition and say I am not saved. But that doesn't change my salvation one way or the other either.

Let's look at it this way. We know where good and evil fruits comes from. They come from the heart.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Ga 5:16–18).​

When a person walks as one with the Spirit of God, then the good fruit of walking in the Spirit is produced and the bad fruit of the walking in the flesh is not produced. When we observe the good friut, our righteous judgement would be to identify the Spirit as the source of the good fruit. Likewise, when we observe the bad fruit, our righteous judgement would be to identify the flesh as the source of the bad fruit. To go a step further and judge that a person is saved if his fruits are good and not saved if his fruits are bad is to go beyond what has been given to us to decide.
 
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Clare73

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Well, Clare, I suppose one could interpret "John 15:1-10" the way you describe; so, I will not question you further about "John 15:1-10."

I would, of course, disagree, because Lord Jesus appears to be teaching this Parable to His disciples as an admonishment and warning; in that, they must remain in His Word and bear fruit to continue to remain in Him, just as Lord Jesus himself did. I do not get the idea that Lord Jesus is teaching them about wheat and tears, or believers and unbelievers.
I can see that. . .and I agree.

It's a warning, not a parable.

Thanks.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We could apply that here.

I see someone cursing, and I say those fruits prove he isn't saved. I know it because I see the fruit. That doesn't change the person with foul language's salvation. He might be saved, or he might not be. But my judgement of his salvation makes me a judge with an evil heart. Someone may observe my judgemental disposition and say I am not saved. But that doesn't change my salvation one way or the other either.

Let's look at it this way. We know where good and evil fruits comes from. They come from the heart.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Ga 5:16–18).​

When a person walks as one with the Spirit of God, then the good fruit of walking in the Spirit is produced and the bad fruit of the walking in the flesh is not produced. When we observe the good friut, our righteous judgement would be to identify the Spirit as the source of the good fruit. Likewise, when we observe the bad fruit, our righteous judgement would be to identify the flesh as the source of the bad fruit. To go a step further and judge that a person is saved if his fruits are good and not saved if his fruits are bad is to go beyond what has been given to us to decide.
Ok you took my quote of Jesus from Matthew 7 and didn’t apply what I said in my posts before that. I specifically said that I struggled with cursing for about a year after I came to Christ. But there was a difference in my cursing after I came to Christ because I would catch myself doing it and I would stop and ask for forgiveness. I didn’t just keep on cursing like I had been doing my whole life like it was no big deal, I was making a conscious effort to rid myself of that kind of behavior because the Holy Spirit was convicting me of my sin. This is why I said it depends on the circumstances. When I cursed it was because it was a natural part of my vocabulary before I came to Christ, it wasn’t because I didn’t feel that it wasn’t important to stop doing it. It’s one thing to stumble in sin but it’s a completely different scenario when a person repeatedly indulges in sin and doesn’t have any remorse whatsoever about it.
 
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AbbaLove

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Some grain (followers) is in the kingdom (by external appearance as grain), but not of the kingdom (by internal nature of the grain--regenerated).
All seeker-sensitive "followers" are told they are "justified" when they made a decision of public confession of their "faith" in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Some branches (followers) are in the kingdom (by external appearance as a branch), but not of the kingdom (by internal production of fruit).
Are not most all branch "followers" (baptized churchgoers) in the kingdom under the impression that they were "justiied" when they made a public confession of their faith in their Lord Christ Jesus as their Savior?
The tares and fruitless branches were in the kingdom (externally), but not of the kingdom (internally).
Yet the tares and fruitless branches are under the false impression that they are still "justified" according to their church doctrine. What if they lose their first love becoming nominal, lukewarm believers based on John 3:16 as they consider themsleves to be among the "whosoever" being "justified" as if they never sinned and possibly under the impression of church doctrine even sanctified.
Some grain (followers) is in the kingdom (by external appearance as grain),
but not of the kingdom (by internal nature of the grain--regenerated).
Maybe now you can see where Paul is coming from in 1 Corinthians 6:11
I am referring to all those of Christianity who profess faith, while some do not actually possess faith (tares, fruitless branches, goats).
They may come across as devout followers of the Word, e.g. Pharisees, (John 8:44)

Was the idea of "Justification" first an indoctrination going back to 325 AD and become so ingrained that once "justified" a Christian can't lost their "justification" to eternal life with a glorified body? And so the real question (OSAS) were they really "saved" (justified) OR can a Christian lose their initial justification ...

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already [b]clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [c]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.​

The order of SALVATION (referred to as the "Gokden Chain") presented by the Apostle Paul implies that real "JUSTIFICATION" and thereby SALVATION) is only known for certainty by God. Thus Paul's following order should not so quickly be cited by you as the "wrong" order with sanctified before justified ...

10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.​
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
 
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setst777

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No we do not all agree on this point.

You can't hide "works" by defining them as "faith".

I know. You and your buddies are perfect. You always follow through on your commitment you made to the Lord before He saved you. And He could see the geuinness of your commitment and knew you would always do what pleased Him, so he wiped out your past infractions and set you completely free of sin. That's great. Now you can sit in judgement with Him on the rest of us who are still beset with the presence of the flesh.

Yep, that's it. You got it.

Counterfeit Christians... One sin proves you're commitment was fake. Actually, that makes perfect sense.

Poor, poor counterfeit Christians. They lose out on everything.

That's terrible. A person can become perfectly holy and perfectly righteous by making a genuine commitment to be a disciple of the Lord, but then reject it and lose it all. Oh, what a tragedy.

Better walk that line or else.

Yep, saved by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone boast. Got it.

Amazing how you mock God's Word and His Gospel with your remarks. You are not worthy of any further response.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?
I think it has since today it is common to say the basis of salvation is Jesus Christ.
 
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