SALVATION

[David Lamb]

We don't pass out of spiritual death onto spiritual life so we can believe, but because we do believe.

So you believe that someone who is spiritually dead has the ability to do the spiritual action of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? Not according to the apostle Paul:

“1 ¶ And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

 

[setst777]

So you believe that someone who is spiritually dead has the ability to do the spiritual action of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? Not according to the apostle Paul:

“1 ¶ And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

You are reading into "Ephesians 2:1-8" your own assumption as to how you think they were made alive, but this Passages does not teach how this happened anywhere. Paul begins his Letter by recounting the blessings we have in Christ Jesus by the mercy and grace of God.

In "Ephesians 2:1-8," Paul is addressing Christians, those who believe, that they were made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. This Passage does not teach HOW they were made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. Other Passages teach us that sinners are made alive by faith in Lord Jesus, which I quoted for you earlier, but you refused to believe.

Regeneration: is to “Make Alive (Ephesians 2:1),” and is The Promise of God to those who believe:

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Regeneration is to Pass out of death onto life (2 Corinthians 1:9-10; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13), and is by believing.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Regeneration refers to the sinner being raised with Christ (Ephesians 2:6), which is by Faith in the working of God (Colossians 2:12).

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

Regeneration is the light of life (Ephesians 5:8) and is by faith evidenced by following Lord Jesus:

John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the {{light of life}}.” [The light of life is regeneration and is God’s Work in those who follow Lord Jesus.]

Regeneration is Life by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us (Romans 8:10-11) - AND the Spirit only indwells us to give us life by faith (John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:2, 14; Ephesians 1:13).

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The Gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9) is "Eternal Life" (Romans 6:23), and is received by faith

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that {{{whoever believes}}} in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith {{{we}}} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have our access by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

That is God's Word. If you believe God and His Word then you may have life in Jesus's name by faith in Him.

John 20:31 (WEB) 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

 

[David Lamb]

You are reading into "Ephesians 2:1-8" your own assumption as to how you think they were made alive, but this Passages does not teach how this happened anywhere. Paul begins his Letter by recounting the blessings we have in Christ Jesus by the mercy and grace of God.

In "Ephesians 2:1-8," Paul is addressing Christians, those who believe, that they were made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. This Passage does not teach HOW they were made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. Other Passages teach us that sinners are made alive by faith in Lord Jesus, which I quoted for you earlier, but you refused to believe.

Regeneration: is to “Make Alive (Ephesians 2:1),” and is The Promise of God to those who believe:

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Regeneration is to Pass out of death onto life (2 Corinthians 1:9-10; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13), and is by believing.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Regeneration refers to the sinner being raised with Christ (Ephesians 2:6), which is by Faith in the working of God (Colossians 2:12).

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

Regeneration is the light of life (Ephesians 5:8) and is by faith evidenced by following Lord Jesus:

John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the {{light of life}}.” [The light of life is regeneration and is God’s Work in those who follow Lord Jesus.]

Regeneration is Life by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us (Romans 8:10-11) - AND the Spirit only indwells us to give us life by faith (John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:2, 14; Ephesians 1:13).

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The Gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9) is "Eternal Life" (Romans 6:23), and is received by faith

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that {{{whoever believes}}} in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith {{{we}}} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have our access by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

That is God's Word. If you believe God and His Word then you may have life in Jesus's name by faith in Him.

John 20:31 (WEB) 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

I am sorry you think that I am reading my own assumptions into Ephesians 2:1-8. I see there that Paul is telling the Ephesian Christians how they became Christians. When they were dead in trespasses and sins, God made them alive. He did this by His grace and mercy. So how did the change happen from spiritually dead sinners to saved sinners with new life in Christ? By God's grace, His undeserved favour. Faith/belief is necessary, but spiritually dead sinners cannot exercise faith. That also comes about by God's grace. I like the verses you quoted in your post, particularly Romans 5:1-2. Thanks!

 

[setst777]

When they were dead in trespasses and sins, God made them alive.

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

He did this by His grace and mercy.

Salvation is all by God's grace and mercy, and God has elected to save those who believe through the Gospel message (John 3:16). God will not grant unbelievers to come to the Son to be saved. God will only save believers.

Romans 3:25 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

James 2:23 (WEB) 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness,” [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the friend of God [reconciliation].

So how did the change happen from spiritually dead sinners to saved sinners with new life in Christ?

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Romans 10:17-18 (WEB)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

By God's grace, His undeserved favour. Faith/belief is necessary, but spiritually dead sinners cannot exercise faith.

Unfortunately, you are replacing human reasoning and doctrine with what God's Word actually teaches. That is the issue. If you will look at the Scriptures objectively, putting aside all prior doctrine, then the Scriptures are plain to understand.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

But that takes humility, because no one likes to feel they were wrong about what they have falsely believed and defended for so long. However, God sent His Son in the world to save the humble and crushed in spirit.

Luke 18:13-14 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Luke 4:18-19 (WEB)
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Mathew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

That also comes about by God's grace. I like the verses you quoted in your post, particularly Romans 5:1-2. Thanks!

You are welcome.

 

[Clare73]

So what you’re saying is that the consequences that Jesus spoke of in verse 6 were never a real possibility because no matter how hard they tried they couldn’t possibly fail to abide in Christ because God wouldn’t ever allow them to which makes the whole message useless.

God works through means to accomplish his purposes.

One of the means he uses to preserve the elect are warnings (v. 6).

The elect are preserved from falling because of his work in their hearts giving them to observe his warnings, which observance prevents them from falling.

Warnings serve to preserve the elect that they do not fall through ignorance.

 

[AbbaLove]

Define "free" there. It is not Reformed theology, to say that we are able to have salvific faith apart from the work of God. Define free will.

My questions were to get a better understanding of your understanding of Reformed Calvinist theology. Are there not differences in Reformed theologies depending on the denomination that refers to its Calvinism as either "Reform" or "Reformed."

When it comes to ones "free will" that again depends on ones Christian theology or philosophy ...

"A compatibilist interpretation of Aquinas's view is defended thus: "Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act. But it does not of necessity belong to liberty that what is free should be the first cause of itself, as neither for one thing to be cause of another need it be the first cause. God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature. "​

How is "free will" defined by Reformed theology when it comes to the disobedience of Adam and Eve? Was it their own "free will" that they chose to disobey God from a Reformed theology perspective of "free will" ?

Huh? Do you not even understand the position of Reformed theology concerning regeneration?

"Reformed theology teaches that regeneration precedes faith through the doctrine of Total depravity."​

Is that the position of Reformed Calvinsim that faith does not precede regeneration rather faith follows regeneration? Aren't both "born again" and "regeneration" the same?

It was Abraham's choice, as well as being obedient. What is the problem here? By FAITH, "and that, not of yourselves..."

So Reformed Calvinist theology believes Abraham choice as well as his obedience was only possible first by regeneration followed by FAITH.

How does Reformed Calvinism differ from [traditional] Calvinism?​

 

[BNR32FAN]

God works through means to accomplish his purposes.

One of the means he uses to preserve the elect are warnings (v. 6).

The elect are preserved from falling because of his work in their hearts giving them to observe his warnings, which observance prevents them from falling.

Warnings serve to preserve the elect that they do not fall through ignorance.

If that’s the case then there’s no reason for consequences.

 

[Clare73]

There’s a distinct difference between the tares in the field and the branches on the Vine.

Agreed. . .and there is a difference in the parables.

One (wheat, tares) illustrates life according to its nature (food or weeds), and
the other (branch) illustrates life according to its location (in or out of the vine).
The wheat illustrates the required nature (born again) and the tare illustrates the condemned nature (unregenerate).
The abiding branch illustrates the required location (in the vine) and the cut-off branch illustrates the condemned location (severed).

The tares in the field can’t bear fruit because they were planted by the enemy,

No, neither wheat nor tares bear fruit because of their nature.
Tares are weeds which look like wheat, and wheat is not fruit, it is grain.
The tares will be burned because of their nature (unregenerate), not because they don't bear fruit (which the unregenerate cannot do).
Tares don't become wheat, just as goats don't become sheep.
Tares are born tares, and they die as tares, just as goats are born goats and they die as goats.

Whereas the severed branch does not bear fruit because it is cut-off (by unbelief) from Christ.

Only the abiding branch, the wheat and the sheep are the saved.

the branches on the Vine will bear much fruit if they remain attached to Him because they were attached to the Vine by The Father. The difference is that the Vine is nurturing the branches. The tares aren’t being nurtured because don’t believe. The Vine isn’t an illustration of the church, it’s an illustration exclusively of believers.

Tares aren't nurtured (apart from the soil). Branches are nurtured by the vine..

The vine is an illustration of the kingdom of God, presented as branches, and also as wheat and tares, in both cases counterfeit faith is in the kingdom--dead branches and tares.
The kingdom of God represents all those who profess faith, wheat and tares, branches in and out of the vine.
But not all who profess faith actually possess saving faith.

Furthermore tares aren’t guaranteed to bear fruit if they remain in the church and they’re destined to be cast away

Might that be because wheat and "tares aren't guaranteed to bear fruit" in the natural order. They are grain, not fruit.

to wither and cast into the fire to be burned regardless of whether or not they remain in the church. So there is a huge difference between the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the Vine.

 

[Clare73]

If that’s the case then there’s no reason for consequences.

1) It's not about reasons.

2) The consequences for all mankind are already established by Adam (Ro 5:18)--condemnation.

3) The only deliverance from that consequence is faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18), which faith is a gift (Php1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

 

[BNR32FAN]

The abiding branch illustrates the required location (in the vine) and the cut-off branch illustrates the condemned location (severed).

Jesus said that the branches in verse 2 are “IN ME”. They’re not cut off branches until they fail to bear fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Tares are weeds which look like wheat, and wheat is not fruit, it is grain.

Both fruit and grain represent good works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Tares don't become wheat, just as goats don't become sheep.
Tares are born tares, and they die as tares, just as goats are born goats and they die as goats.

Every sheep was born a goat. We’re not a sheep until we hear His words and act on them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Whereas the severed branch does not bear fruit because it is cut-off (by unbelief) from Christ.

Again the branches mentioned in verse 2 are attached to Christ they will be cut off if they fail to bear fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The vine is an illustration of the kingdom of God, presented as a vine, and also as wheat and tares, both of which are figurative, not literal,

The vine is an illustration of those who are joined to Christ which is what the entire audience of this message was composed of. The wheat and tares is an illustration of the church. Heres the big problem with your interpretation. The branches will absolutely be saved if they remain in the vine, the tares will not be saved simply by remaining in the church. So these two parables do not represent the same illustration. One is in reference to the church the other is in reference to those who are joined to Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1) It's not about reasons.

2) The consequences for all mankind are already established by Adam (Ro 5:18)--condemnation.

3) The only deliverance from that consequence is faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18), which faith is a gift (Php1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

But Jesus was specifically speaking to believers in John 15. There was no one present in the upper room with them except Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles. So according to your theology that consequence given in John 15:6 is an impossibility for them which makes it a useless statement. If God is controlling their will then consequences for believers is completely useless.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said that the branches in verse 2 are “IN ME”. They’re not cut off branches until they fail to bear fruit.

The fail to bear fruit because they are dead. . .not born again. . .and will be cut-off from the vine (professing church, wherein are gathered the believers and also some unbelievers).

 

[Clare73]

Both fruit and grain represent good works.

Good works are the evidence of saving faith. . .no good works = no saving faith = damnation.

 

[Clare73]

Every sheep was born a goat. We’re not a sheep until we hear His words and act on them.

Nope. . .not in the natural order and not in the spiritual order.

When did Jesus ever speak a parable or give an example from nature that was not true to nature.

If the point is not true in the example, that means it is not true in reality, and then Jesus would be misrepresenting spiritual reality.

 

[Clare73]

Again the branches mentioned in verse 2 are attached to Christ they will be cut off if they fail to bear fruit.

Again, in the parables, the field, the kingdom, the vine are the kingdom, wherein are both sheep (abiding branches, wheat) and goats (severed branches, tares).

 

[Clare73]

The vine is an illustration of those who are joined to Christ which is what the entire audience of this message was composed of.

Then you are not prosecuting the parables in the light of all the NT.

The wheat and tares is an illustration of the church. Heres the big problem with your interpretation. The branches will absolutely be saved if they remain in the vine, the tares will not be saved simply by remaining in the church. So these two parables do not represent the same illustration. One is in reference to the church the other is in reference to those who are joined to Christ.

Agreed, as explained in post #528.