SALVATION

[Mark Quayle]

You said, "So you reject that as assurance, even though the Bible posits it as assurance. Typical of the RCC —knows more about God than what God himself says about God.

Well stated Mark [& Clare73]! ... here you hit on a very important point ... tragically, according to RCC theology, no person can possess the assurance of their salvation... a promise that scripture clearly proclaims to those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit :

The Roman Catholic Institution claims :

Council of Trent sixth session [celebrated on the thirteenth day of January, 1547] -
Decree Concerning Justification :

Canon 15. If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide [from faith] to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone say that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out ... that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged ... before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

On the other hand ... the Bible declares the assurance of salvation/eternal life given to the all blood-bought, Holy Spirit regenerated believing children of God :

[1] 1 Thess.1:4-5 - "knowing brethren beloved, your election in God."

[2] Eph.1:13-14 with 2 Cor. 1:21-22 - " after that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy spirit of promise".

[3] Rom.8:16 - "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

[4] 1 John 11-13 with 1 John 5:11-13 - "Hereby know we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" ... "that ye may know that ye have eternal life".

[5] Gal.4:6 - "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father".

[6] Heb.10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified".

[7] 1 John 3:24 - "And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us".


According to the RCC, every person on this planet [whether regenerated or unregenerated by the Holy Spirit] will just have to "wait and see" [i.e. - "cross their fingers"] and hope that they have actually received eternal life, or that they will enter Heaven when they die. Their theology simply does not allow a person to have the understanding and assurance in the here and now that they will go to heaven when they draw their final breath in this world.

It's one thing to say that a person may possess a false sense of the assurance of their salvation .... however, it's quite the unscriptural leap to make the claim that no persons will actually possess a genuine assurance that they will go to Heaven when they die.

It's a little like this. Faith is the measure of assurance, and being the gift of God, it is a sure thing. The FEELING associated with one's sense of security is dependent on fellowship with Christ. But the FACT of security is dependent on God's purposes. BOTH by the work of the Spirit, the source of Faith.

 

[setst777]

You said, "So you reject that as assurance, even though the Bible posits it as assurance. Typical of the RCC —knows more about God than what God himself says about God.

So, you believe that faith and salvation are guaranteed by God unto salvation?

How do you know that you are one of the elect?

Is everyone who believes the Gospel saved if they do at least some good work (fruits)?
How is that any different from anyone else, since sinner do not do evil all the time, but do at least some good deeds.

Romans 2:13 (WEB) For it isn’t the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14 (for when Gentiles who don’t have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.

Can you show, by Scripture, that God guarantees the faith of those God elected to save?

On the other hand ... the Bible declares the assurance of salvation/eternal life given to the all blood-bought, Holy Spirit regenerated believing children of God :

I think all Christians agree with that. The questions are:

Who has assurance of salvation/eternal life? ... Answer: Only to those who believe: John 3:16.

John 3:16 (EWEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Who are the ones blood-bought? ... Answer: Only those who believe: Romans 3:25

Romans 3:25 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith.

Who are the ones the Holy Spirit regenerates, giving them life? ... Answer: Only those who first who believe: John 7:38-39

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Do we become children of God by faith, or by regeneration of the Holy Spirit? ... Answer: Only by faith are we children of God: Galatians 3:26

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

Regeneration is to receive God’s Spirit after a person believes and becomes a child of God:

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

[1] 1 Thess.1:4-5 - "knowing brethren beloved, your election in God."

[2] Eph.1:13-14 with 2 Cor. 1:21-22 - " after that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy spirit of promise".

[3] Rom.8:16 - "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".

[4] 1 John 11-13 with 1 John 5:11-13 - "Hereby know we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" ... "that ye may know that ye have eternal life".

[5] Gal.4:6 - "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba, Father".

[6] Heb.10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified".

[7] 1 John 3:24 - "And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us".

All the saving promises of God are given to those who believe:

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive The Promise

James 1:12 (EWEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Is faith guaranteed?, if so, why is the Apostle John admonishing born again Christians to remain so they may receive the Promise?

1 John 1:24-25 (WEB) 24 Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father. 25 This is The Promise which he promised us [those who believe, remaining in the Truth], the Eternal Life.

According to the RCC, every person on this planet [whether regenerated or unregenerated by the Holy Spirit] will just have to "wait and see" [i.e. - "cross their fingers"] and hope that they have actually received eternal life, or that they will enter Heaven when they die.

Those who remain in "The Faith" have nothing to fear, and can be assured of their salvation. However, every Christian must also live with sober fear, because not everyone in the faith will remain in the faith, and will be cut off.

Romans 11:20-22 (EWEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul didn’t consider Timothy’s salvation to be guaranteed unless Timothy continued in the doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:16 (EWEB) The Apostle Paul instructs Timothy: 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Again Paul warns Timothy to fight to hold the faith, which again has to do with salvation.

1 Timothy 1:18-19 (EWEB) 18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning “The Faith”

Paul did not think his salvation was eternally secure unless he remained faithful to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate.

https://biblehub.com/greek/96.html

Again Paul expresses that unless he remains faithful to the end he will not be saved.

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

And so, the Holy Spirit, who indwells born again Believers, will only give Eternal Life to the Christian who remains faithful, careful to sow to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7 (WEB) Paul admonishes the Christians in Galatia ... Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} [Christians, including Paul] not be weary in doing good, for we [Christians, including Paul] will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} [Christians, including Paul] do not give up.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How is that any different from anyone else, since sinner do not do evil all the time, but do at least some good deeds.

The only good from any of those who are yet in their sins, is by God's doing. Even the supposedly greatest good that one can do —the altruistic deed, or, if you value it more, the giving of one's life to Christ— is not done by the person, but by God, if there is any truth to it.

 

[setst777]

The only good from any of those who are yet in their sins, is by God's doing. Even the supposedly greatest good that one can do —the altruistic deed, or, if you value it more, the giving of one's life to Christ— is not done by the person, but by God, if there is any truth to it.

My response was in reply to the doctrine of assurance of one's salvation; in that, a born-again Christian is guaranteed that his faith will endure and so be saved.

 

[fhansen]

Agreed. . .

I was referring to the
past (one-time) event; i.e., removal of God's condemnation/wrath (Ro 5:9, 18) for sin, I was not referring to
present salvation in sanctification, and
future salvation in the resurrection.

Salvation is salvation-one is either within God's fold or not. And it's a journey, a process-something to be worked out-that's what they're getting at. In order to be saved we must be right in the eyes of God. And so we must either be solely declared to be righteous, as per your understanding, or we must be made right by God which is the historic understanding. Being made right is having been forgiven, our sins taken away and replaced with righteousness, all as a free gift as we turn to God in faith. Our part is to accept the gift, and to begin to express it in how we live our lives. The overcoming of sin is part of that-and that is why we are no longer under condemnation. It's all grace, and yet grace that we must cooperate with as we pick up our cross and follow...daily. Otherwise, we can also lose our justified state, by living unjustly, not as a child of God should.

Words have meanings.
The meaning of free will is the ability to choose, without external force or constraint, what I prefer.
If God gives me to prefer his will, then my choosing what I prefer is free will.

Words have meaning. If God changes you that dramatically then it’s no longer even you doing the choosing-your freedom has been compromised. Again, He might as well have made Adam to also prefer making the right choice. Otherwise, any evil that comes from human choice is needless, gratuitous.

I'll go you one better. . .why not just make us fixed in righteousness so we would not sin, and save everyone all the grief?

Exactly. Does God prefer grief, evil, suffering for His creation like some mean kid on the block?

 

[fhansen]

You are not saved if you are not in the correct practice of faith; i.e., not relying on good works for your salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

It's not either/or, but both/and. Faith leads to the life of grace which produces good works such as those God has prepared for us in advance (Eph 2:10). And yet, we can resist that grace. But:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:10

 

[fhansen]

So you reject that as assurance, even though the Bible posits it as assurance. Typical of the RCC —knows more about God than what God himself says about God.

I accept that you'll know with 100% certainty whether or not you are one of those being spoken of in those passages only in the next life. That means that even if you are in the right place with God now, you will have persevered to the end in remaining in Him. He's always there for us but we're still the wildcard. Again, the best way for us to know if we're His is in how we've changed and grown, towards love of God and neighbor with all the fruit implied in that including doing good for others, overcoming sin, etc.

 

[fhansen]

According to scripture, you don't know, if you don't obey. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." But if you are walking IN HIM, "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

Thus our eternal security is, as should be obvious, according to the mercy of God and not by the fact that I once made a decision for Christ. And that is the most satisfying, happy, and free way to live. To walk in the "fear of the Lord".

"And who can know that they won’t fall away themselves???"

 

[fhansen]

Are we talking about the forgiveness of sin and right standing with God in salvation by faith. . .or living the Christian life?

Both-faith enables living the Christian life which keeps us in right standing with God. Either way we are not talking about a "counterfeit faith".

 

[Valletta]

The only good from any of those who are yet in their sins, is by God's doing. Even the supposedly greatest good that one can do —the altruistic deed, or, if you value it more, the giving of one's life to Christ— is not done by the person, but by God, if there is any truth to it.

We have free will. We can accept the graces God gives us or reject those graces.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My response was in reply to the doctrine of assurance of one's salvation; in that, a born-again Christian is guaranteed that his faith will endure and so be saved.

But, how does one know he is a born-again Christian?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I accept that you'll know with 100% certainty whether or not you are one of those being spoken of in those passages only in the next life. That means that even if you are in the right place with God now, you will have persevered to the end in remaining in Him. He's always there for us but we're still the wildcard. Again, the best way for us to know if we're His is in how we've changed and grown, towards love of God and neighbor with all the fruit implied in that including doing good for others, overcoming sin, etc.

I've been "100% certain" of things I was dead wrong about. I can know with "100% certainty" that I am saved, and be wrong. The problem with your view is that your salvation depends on YOU. But salvation depends entirely on God, who will not fail to save EVERY one of those to whom he chose to show mercy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"And who can know that they won’t fall away themselves???"

As long as you are walking IN HIM, his Spirit witnesses with your spirit.

BTW, my use of the notion of "falling away" is not exactly typical of Calvinists. They may say that a person cannot fall away, because they belong to Christ, and to that I agree, but I say that the unsaved can attend to the things of God, (be in 'The Way', so to speak), and subsequently fall away. But like the Calvinist, I agree entirely that God will not fail to bring home absolutely every one he set out to save. Those will not fall away.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We have free will. We can accept the graces God gives us or reject those graces.

Can you reject the grace of God in giving you your first birth? No, not even if you commit suicide, you cannot reject your birth. It happened to you by God's choosing to create you. Neither can you reject your second birth. Though you may do all you can to work against it, and ruin your life, you cannot change the fact that God chose you for his, and changed your very nature, and gave you faith by which you are saved.

 

[fhansen]

As long as you are walking IN HIM, his Spirit witnesses with your spirit.

BTW, my use of the notion of "falling away" is not exactly typical of Calvinists. They may say that a person cannot fall away, because they belong to Christ, and to that I agree, but I say that the unsaved can attend to the things of God, (be in 'The Way', so to speak), and subsequently fall away. But like the Calvinist, I agree entirely that God will not fail to bring home absolutely every one he set out to save. Those will not fall away.

And yet that's a bit redundant, isn't it? Yes, the elect are the elect, but that doesn't mean we can know perfectly who they are, who will persevere and who will not. Also, I don't believe that God wants any to perish.

 

[Clare73]

Because in verse 27 He said that His sheep hear and follow. That’s an important part of the message.

Precisely. . .he guarantees that they do (Php 2:13).

 

[Clare73]

Yeah and the consequence of doing so is having no inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Because those who do so never had saving faith, their faith was counterfeit.

It's not disobedience that makes one's faith to be counterfeit, it's counterfeit faith that makes one to be disobedient.

 

[Clare73]

This has nothing to do with being joined to Christ. You’re so very fond of and familiar with John 6:44 “no one can come to Me unless The Father draws them”. Why aren’t you applying this verse into your explanation?

That is precisely the reason they do not believe. . .the Father does not draw/enable them to do so (Jn 6:44, 65).
Nor can they believe until the Holy Spirit of the Father does draw/enable them (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Precisely. . .he guarantees that they do (Php 2:13).

And… you’re back to ignoring Ephesians 4:30.

 

[Clare73]

Actually you did say that just yesterday when you said that if we continue grieving the Holy Spirit we lose our rewards but we’re still saved. That’s precisely what the people in John 15:2 were doing. They were in Christ which means they had received the Holy Spirit and they weren’t bearing fruit which means they were grieving the Spirit and if they do that for too long they will eventually be cut off from Christ

If they did that "too long," they were never born again and their faith was counterfeit.

just like the Galatians which results in condemnation if they don’t repent.

The condemnation of the Galatians was due to adding works (circumcision) to faith as necessary for salvation.
There is no salvation (from the wrath of God, Ro 5:9, by forgiveness of sin through faith only) involving any kind of work (Eph 2:8-9).