SALVATION

[fhansen]

It's not about truth itself guaranteeing that one cannot be deceived regarding it,
that true gold itself guarantees that one cannot be deceived regarding it,
that if it can't guarantee that one will not be deceived regarding it, then it cannot be true.
The guilt of deception is on the deceived, not on the truth's failure to guarantee that all will see it.

It's about truth itself guaranteeing what is true, whether or not one can see it to be true.
The unregenerate cannot see and are/will be deceived regarding their "faith," the born again can see and will not be deceived about their faith.

How do we know which we are?
We start with the measure--obedience.

I agree-obedience is the best evidence. And there are many explanations given in Scripture as to what obedience means and how it should play out throughout our lives.

 

[fhansen]

I offered up Mt 7:22-23, because working miracles does not guarantee true faith.

And that would be irrelevant-because Paul was speaking of true faith in 1 Cor 13

 

[Clare73]

And that would be irrelevant-because Paul was speaking of true faith in 1 Cor 13

If your faith moves mountains but you have nothing (no salvation), that is not true faith.

 

[AbbaLove]

It's about truth itself guaranteeing what is true, whether or not one can see it to be true. The unregenerate cannot see and are/will be deceived regarding their "faith," the born again can see and will not be deceived about their faith.

The RCC as well as that of Eastern Orthodox (and some Protestant) believe ("truth") that infants of Christian parents that are sprinkled with Holy Water by a priest are "born again" (justified). So they would agree with your order with justification preceding sanctification over that of Paul's order ...

Romans 8:30​

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

A Christian denomination can believe they have the best "Specific Denominational Theology"; however it's God that decides who is deserving of internal life (SALVATION) with a glorified body ... not a specific Christian SALVATION theology no matter how correct if it isn't put into action by the Holy Spirit with evidence (action) on the part of a faithful Believer.

Whether your preferred SALVATION order or Paul's order is [more] correct doesn't ensure one's SALVATION of eternal life with a glorified body. "Without Faith it is impossible to please God". Was Rahab's FAITH (Hebrews 11:31) a Gift from God? Was it her faith alone or a gift of faith from God that she was counted as righteous? .

"By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient."​

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?"​

Rahab's righteous faith in Israel's God. By this, she made herself an Israelite, so to speak. She chose to cast her lot with Israel's God, not the Canaanites' gods.

 

[Clare73]

The RCC as well as that of Eastern Orthodox (and some Protestant) believe ("truth") that infants of Christian parents that are sprinkled with Holy Water by a priest are "born again" (justified). So they would agree with your order with justification preceding sanctification over that of Paul's order ...
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In Ro 8:30, Paul leaves out faith and salvation.
Is he giving the "order" of man's redemption?

No, he is not.

Salvation is forgiveness of sin.
Justification is declaration of "not guilty."

There is no declaration of "not guilty" (justification) before sin is forgiven (salvation).

 

[fhansen]

If your faith moves mountains but you have nothing (no salvation), that is not true faith.

But that's not at all what Paul is saying; it's what you're saying. You're trying to squeeze Scriptural passages to fit into a theological mold created by Reformers in order to, almost desperately, it seems, ensure that everything that has to do with salvation can be placed under the umbrella of faith. And while the door to salvation is opened by faith, it's only the beginning and foundation, not the end.
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

So centuries ago the church could teach:
"For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body."

And since Jesus, obviously, thought that a faith that can move mountains is a "true faith", then I'd change tack a bit and at least suggest that such a faith is not a "saving faith", which I would disagree with but that would at least be a bit more potentially reconcilable with the passages. Because all faith that comes from our acknowledgment of His existence and of our need for Him pleases God whether that be a faith that's willing to sacrifice our son in obedience to Him or one that believes He'll move mountains if we ask-or that He can resurrect His own Son from the dead:

"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

 

[Clare73]

But that's not at all what Paul is saying; it's what you're saying. You're trying to squeeze Scriptural passages to fit into a theological mold created by Reformers in order to, almost desperately, it seems, ensure that everything that has to do with salvation can be placed under the umbrella of faith. And while the door to salvation is opened by faith, it's only the beginning and foundation, not the end.
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

So centuries ago the church taught:
"For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body."

Are we talking about the forgiveness of sin and right standing with God in salvation by faith. . .or living the Christian life?

 

[setst777]

Are you not aware that God is revealing His Son to those of other faiths so that they should be saved and help spread the Good News to others that you may think are undeserving because of their non-Christian faith (Luke 5:32).

If a person is putting his faith in his traditions, then that is pride. Such a person's mind will be blind to anything other than what he has put his trust in. In God's wisdom, he hides the Truth from such people lest they should be saved, because they refuse to love the Truth.

Lord Jesus was sent to save the humble, those crushed in spirit and heavy laden.

Luke 4:18-19 (EWEB) 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Mathew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

Referring to Religious Jews (God's Chosen), At recent count were 33 Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel.

The Christian "church" has not replaced Israel (RT/supersessionism) in God's plan. Some classic conservative denominations have more sympathy for Palestinians in Gaza than the Israeli Jews killed by the terrorists from Gaza.

Jesus Reportedly Appearing to Palestinians in Gaza​

Google Search

www.google.com

Hundreds in Gaza have visions of Jesus during Israel war​

Every Bible believing Christian denomination could list the same "14 verses" and yet they are not united in SALVATION theology. Each Christian denomination believing they have the best interpretation and understanding that leads to one's SALAVATION.

At least two Christian denominations believe that when an infant of Christian parents has their infant sprinkled with holy water they are "born again". Other Christian denominations teach that not until a Chistian decides to be water immersed baptized do they receive Salvation (OSAS). Reform denominations don't generally believe water baptism immersion is required in order to receive/inherit Salvation.

Their "faith" is based on a Religious Specific Theology (i.e. Soteriology)

​

If a sinner humbles himself, trembling before the Word of God, then God will reveal to him the Truth by His Spirit and Word.

Isaiah 66:2 (WEB) For my hand has made all these things, and so all these things came to be,” says Yahweh: “but I will look to this man, even to he who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word.

Luke 4:18-19 (WEB) 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Mathew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

 

[fhansen]

Are we talking about the forgiveness of sin and right standing with God in salvation by faith. . .or living the Christian life?

The forgiveness of sin along with the ability to overcome future sin is all one package. Sinners don't enter heaven regardless according to Scripture: Rom 6:21-22, 8:12-14, Gal 5, Rev 21 & 22. As I believe you agree.

The point is that we're now enabled to overcome, to wash our robes, to the extent that we remain in Him, walking by the Spirit.

We're not forced to enter His family, or to remain in it. But to the extent that we do our holiness will only grow as we're tested and refined and grow in nearness and likeness to Him. Becoming a "slave to righteousness" (Rom 6) is part and parcel of having become justified.

 

[Clare73]

The forgiveness of sin along with the ability to overcome future sin is all one package.

One package but not one event.
Salvation by faith is a one-time event.
Ability to overcome future sin is a life-long event following the salvation event.

Sinners don't enter heaven regardless according to Scripture: Rom 6:21-22, 8:12-14, Gal 5, Rev 21 & 22. As I believe you agree.

The point is that we're now enabled to overcome, to wash our robes, to the extent that we remain in Him, walking by the Spirit.

We're not forced to enter His family, or to remain in it. But to the extent that we do our holiness will only grow as we're tested and refined and grow in nearness and likeness to Him.

Of course we are not forced. Am I ever forced to eat chocolate ice cream?

We willingly enter his family because we prefer and desire it, due to the work of the Holy Spirit's new birth within us.

 

[fhansen]

We willingly enter his family because we prefer and desire it, due to the work of the Holy Spirit's new birth within us.

But that's not Christianity. Read Gal 5, read Rom 6; believers are being warned to continue to walk justly to avoid the death that sin will earn.

 

[Clare73]

But that's not Christianity. Read Gal 5, read Rom 6; believers are being warned to continue to walk justly to avoid the death that sin will earn.

In Gal 5 believers are warned that if they let themselves be circumcised, Christ is of no value to them; i.e., they are not saved, their faith is counterfeit, because they are trusting in works for their salvation.

In Ro 6, Paul is addressing the notion that
if the law was added so that trespass might increase,
and where trespass increased grace, therefore, increased all the more,
then we should go on sinning so that grace may increase.

I"ll leave the parsing to you of what more sinning will earn.

 

[fhansen]

In Gal 5 believers are warned that if they let themselves be circumcised, Christ is of no value to them; i.e., they are not saved, their faith is counterfeit, because they are trusting in works for their salvation.

Circumcision will get one nowhere, and neither will sin:
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

And Rom 8:12-14 agrees:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

In Ro 6, Paul is addressing the notion that
if the law was added so that trespass might increase,
and where trespass increased grace, therefore, increased all the more,
then we should go on sinning so that grace may increase.

I"ll leave the parsing to you of what more sinning will earn.

Wait, I already know!:
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!" Rom 6:20-21

So they were warned:
"Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Rom 6:13-14

Grace gives us the ability to overcome sin by the power of the Spirit. That's God's life in us.

More warning:
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:16-18

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:12-15

 

[Clare73]

Circumcision will get one nowhere, and neither will sin:

Nor will a cup of coffee. . .relevance to Gal 5?

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21
And Rom 8:12-14 agrees:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."
Wait, I already know!:
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!" Rom 6:20-21
So they were warned:
"Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Rom 6:13-14
Grace gives us the ability to overcome sin by the power of the Spirit. That's God's life in us.
More warning:
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:16-18
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:12-15

Agreed. . .we should not go on sinning so that grace may increase.

 

[fhansen]

Nor will a cup of coffee. . .relevance to Gal 5?

You said Gal 5 was about refraining from circumcision-but it's more than that; it's about refraining from sin-in order to inherit eternal life. That's what grace gives you. the power to overcome sin, if you will. So...he warns us.

Agreed. . .we should not go on sinning so that grace may increase.

Yes, properly understood. We should not go on sinning so that we will live. And the more we participate in that life of grace the more we grow in it and the more life we have. This is explained by the Parable of the Talents. The more we invest the talents given, the more they increase and the more we're given. If we bury them then even those will be taken away-and we'll be booted from the kingdom.

 

[fhansen]

One package but not one event.
Salvation by faith is a one-time event.
Ability to overcome future sin is a life-long event following the salvation event.

It's not a one time event. Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as A past, present, and future event. This is because we can always walk away from it; we can always walk away from God and the sanctification or holiness that is intrinsic to our being close to Him and which is necessary in order to gain eternal life. We can return to the flesh; we can ail to persevere, which us why we're warned about these things.

Of course we are not forced. Am I ever forced to eat chocolate ice cream?

We willingly enter his family because we prefer and desire it, due to the work of the Holy Spirit's new birth within us.

A rose is a rose by any other name. If we're so totally changed and moved without any regard for our wills such that we cannot help but choose one way rather than another, then "forced" would not be an inappropriate term for it. If I'm made to like chocolate when I hated it before, then....

And what would be the point? If that's what it takes why wouldn't God just make Adam a chocolate-lover to begin with, and avoid all the unnecessary evil that transpired because He didn't? Hint: It's because God wants us to freely change, by assenting to grace rather than having no choice at all in the matter.

 

[Clare73]

You said Gal 5 was about refraining from circumcision-but it's more than that;

Yes, it's also about life by the Spirit.

It's not a one time event. Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as A past, present, and future event.

Agreed. . .

I was referring to the
past (one-time) event; i.e., removal of God's condemnation/wrath (Ro 5:9, 18) for sin, I was not referring to
present salvation in sanctification, and
future salvation in the resurrection.

A rose is a rose by any other name. If we're so totally changed and moved without any regard for our wills such that we cannot help but choose one way rather than another, then "forced" would not be an inappropriate term for it.

Words have meanings.
The meaning of free will is the ability to choose, without external force or constraint, what I prefer.
If God gives me to prefer his will, then my choosing what I prefer is free will.

If I'm made to like chocolate when I hated it before, then....

And what would be the point? If that's what it takes why wouldn't God just make Adam a chocolate-lover to begin with, and avoid all the unnecessary evil that transpired because He didn't? Hint: It's because God wants us to freely change, by assenting to grace rather than having no choice at all in the matter.

I'll go you one better. . .why not just make us fixed in righteousness so we would not sin, and save everyone all the grief?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Counterfeit faith isn’t in the Bible; that’s your term. And who can know that they won’t fall away themselves???

According to scripture, you don't know, if you don't obey. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." But if you are walking IN HIM, "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

Thus our eternal security is, as should be obvious, according to the mercy of God and not by the fact that I once made a decision for Christ. And that is the most satisfying, happy, and free way to live. To walk in the "fear of the Lord".

 

[Mark Quayle]

Clare73 said:
The one in whom the Holy Spirit both witnesses (testifies) with their spirit that they are a child of God (Ro 8:16) and guarantees their inheritance (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph1:14), working in them to will and to do according to God's good purpose (Php 2:13).

And yet that's so highly subjective that people can fool themselves about it all day long. There are more and surer evidences given in the bible that one is a child of God, evidence of the Spirit's indwelling IOW. Rom 8 goes on to tell us that overcoming sin is one mark. Jesus tells us that meekness, humility, righteousness, and obedience of the commandments are others. The 1st letter of John which you quote says the same -that His children don't sin-and that we'll know them by their love. And love expresses itself all over the place and in many ways: feeding the poor, consoling the sorrowful, instructing the doubtful, clothing the naked, witnessing to the ineffable love of God.

So you reject that as assurance, even though the Bible posits it as assurance. Typical of the RCC —knows more about God than what God himself says about God.

 

[Valletta]

The RCC as well as that of Eastern Orthodox (and some Protestant) believe ("truth") that infants of Christian parents that are sprinkled with Holy Water by a priest are "born again" (justified)

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

We are indeed saved through the sacrament of Baptism as the Bible states, water is the sign of the sacrament. The Didache gives us a look at the methods of Baptism by Christians (including pouring water over the head) during the first century:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism​

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

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