SALVATION

[Clare73]

In the following, Paul is teaching about those who were in "THE" Faith, but fell away.

Not all faith is true faith.
Counterfeit faith falls away.

 

[setst777]

Not all faith is true faith.

We all know that.

Counterfeit faith falls away.

The Passages I provided show that the faith being discussed is THE Faith, not a false faith.

In the following, Paul is teaching about those who were in "THE" Faith, but fell away.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {THE faith}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {THE faith}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {THE faith}.

You can't say they are not in the true faith without rejecting God's Word, because the Scriptures state that they were in THE faith.

Not everyone who is truly saved will remain so:

2 Timothy 4:9-10 (WEB) 9 Be diligent to come to me soon, 10 for Demas left me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (WEB) 16 But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness, 17 and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus: 18 men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.

Some were in the Holy Root but were broken off for falling away from the faith. You cannot be grafted into the Holy Root unless you are in Christ by a true faith.

Romans 11:19-23 (WEB) 20 Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those {{{{who fell}}}}, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness [by not falling away like the natural branches]; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[Clare73]

The Passages I provided show that the faith being discussed is THE Faith, not a false faith.

"The faith" refers to the doctrine.
"Of the faith" refers to belief in the doctrine, which faith can be true or false.
Only false faith falls away.

 

[setst777]

"The faith" refers to the doctrine.

Call it doctrine if you want, but you are not saved if you are not in the correct doctrine of Faith.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Pay attention to yourself and to your doctrine. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 4:1 (EWEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from “The Faith,” paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

The fact remains, they were in the True Faith - "THE" Faith
They were not in an untrue faith.
They fell away from THE Faith.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {THE faith}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {THE faith}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {THE faith}.

You can't say they are not in the true faith without rejecting God's Word, because the Scriptures state that they were in THE faith.

Not everyone who is truly saved will remain so:

2 Timothy 4:9-10 (WEB) 9 Be diligent to come to me soon, 10 for Demas left me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (WEB) 16 But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness, 17 and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus: 18 men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.

Some were in the Holy Root but were broken off for falling away from the faith. You cannot be grafted into the Holy Root unless you are in Christ by a true faith.

Romans 11:19-23 (WEB) 20 Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those {{{{who fell}}}}, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness [by not falling away like the natural branches]; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Do not be unbelieving, but believe what the Lord says to the Churches of true believers.

Revelation 3:1-6 (NIV) 1 I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious [overcomes] will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[AbbaLove]

This SALVATION thread is a prime example why Christendom is composed of so many denominations with each one believing they have the better interpretation, meaning and understanding of scripture. Even if this thread was just for Baptists there still might be 20 pages.

Among "Baptists" there are: Classic Conservative, Reform, Seven-Day and Tongue-Speaking (Southern Baptists). Some Reform Baptists don't believe you have to be water immersed baptized to be "saved" yet refer to themselves as "Baptists." Likewise among Pentecostals and Charasmatics there are differences. Then there are JWs and LDS that aren't considered mainstream Christianity.

Even if this SALVATION thread was cloaked as only for "nondenominational" nothing would change as there really isn't a church that is truly nondenominational. Previously the term "interdenominational" was used, but it was quickly realized that "interdenominational" could cause confusion instead of unity.

Call it doctrine if you want, but you are not saved if you are not in the correct doctrine of Faith.

And yet going on 20 pages there seems to be no agreement on the correct doctrine of Faith (welcome to 21st century Christendom). The more posts the more disagreement is when it comes to one's SALVATION .

 

[setst777]

This SALVATION thread is a prime example why Christendom is composed of so many denominations with each one believing they have the better interpretation, meaning and understanding of scripture. Even if this thread was just for Baptists there still might be 20 pages.

Among "Baptists" there are: Classic Conservative, Reform, Seven-Day and Tongue-Speaking (Southern Baptists). Some Reform Baptists don't believe you have to be water immersed baptized to be "saved" yet refer to themselves as "Baptists." Likewise among Pentecostals and Charasmatics there are differences. Then there are JWs and LDS that aren't considered mainstream Christianity.

Even if this SALVATION thread was cloaked as only for "nondenominational" nothing would change as there really isn't a church that is truly nondenominational. Previously the term "interdenominational" was used, but it was quickly realized that "interdenominational" could cause confusion instead of unity.

And yet going on 20 pages there seems to be no agreement on the correct doctrine of Faith (welcome to 21st century Christendom). The more posts the more disagreement is when it comes to one's SALVATION .

The Holy Spirit has done a fantastic and miraculous job of hiding the true Gospel Faith - a Faith that is repeated and taught plainly throughout the Scriptures - from those who choose to put their faith in their traditions lest they should be saved.

Isaiah 6:9-10 (WEB) 9 He said, “Go and tell this people: “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

And this is all by the design of God so as to reveal those who are His - those who give pure devotion to Lord Jesus and His Words - following Him.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (NIV) 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Are only a few saved?

Luke 13:24 (WEB) “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

I pray that the proud and obstinate in their own wisdom will humble themselves in repentance toward God, and put their faith in Lord Jesus alone for their salvation - following Him. For, the Lord teaches and saves such as these. But the obstinate, God blinds them so they cannot understand.

Isaiah 66:2 (WEB) For my hand has made all these things, and so all these things came to be,” says Yahweh: “but I will look to this man, even to he who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for {{{everyone}}} who exalts himself will be brought low, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Psalms 18:27 (NIV) 27 You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Psalms 25:8-9 (WEB) Good and upright is Yahweh, therefore he will instruct sinners in the way. 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Psalms 34:18 Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.

2 Samuel 22:28 You save the humble, but your eyes are on the haughty ones to bring them low.

1 Peter 5:5 (WEB) Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." [Proverbs 3:34]

And so, Lord Jesus, as a man-servant of God by the incarnation, was anointed and sent by God the Father to preach the good news to the humble, poor, and crushed to rescue them from bondage, and bring them to salvation - to all who believe in Him (John 3:16).

Luke 4:18-19 (EWEB) 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Mathew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

 

[fhansen]

Not all faith is true faith.
Counterfeit faith falls away.

Counterfeit faith isn’t in the Bible; that’s your term. And who can know that they won’t fall away themselves???

 

[David Lamb]

Counterfeit faith isn’t in the Bible; that’s your term. And who can know that they won’t fall away themselves???

The actual words "counterfeit faith" are not in any English translation of the bible, as far as I know, but the idea of counterfeit faith is. Jesus talks about those who call Him "Lord, Lord" but who show by their lives that their "faith" is pretence. Then we have the false teachers, mentioned several times in the epistles.

 

[Clare73]

Call it doctrine if you want, but you are not saved if you are not in the correct doctrine of Faith.

Yes, the faith that saves is faith in the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus for the forgiveness of one's sin and right standing with God ("not guilty").

 

[Clare73]

Counterfeit faith isn’t in the Bible; that’s your term. And who can know that they won’t fall away themselves???

The one in whom the Holy Spirit both witnesses (testifies) with their spirit that they are a child of God (Ro 8:16) and guarantees their inheritance (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph1:14), working in them to will and to do according to God's good purpose (Php 2:13).

 

[fhansen]

The one in whom the Holy Spirit both witnesses (testifies) with their spirit that they are a child of God (Ro 8:16) and guarantees their inheritance (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph1:14), working in them to will and to do according to God's good purpose (Php 2:13).

And yet that's so highly subjective that people can fool themselves about it all day long. There are more and surer evidences given in the bible that one is a child of God, evidence of the Spirit's indwelling IOW. Rom 8 goes on to tell us that overcoming sin is one mark. Jesus tells us that meekness, humility, righteousness, and obedience of the commandments are others. The 1st letter of John which you quote says the same -that His children don't sin-and that we'll know them by their love. And love expresses itself all over the place and in many ways: feeding the poor, consoling the sorrowful, instructing the doubtful, clothing the naked, witnessing to the ineffable love of God.

 

[Clare73]

And yet that's so highly subjective that people can fool themselves about it all day long.

Which has nothing to do with its truth.

Fools' gold doesn't negate true gold.

 

[fhansen]

The actual words "counterfeit faith" are not in any English translation of the bible, as far as I know, but the idea of counterfeit faith is. Jesus talks about those who call Him "Lord, Lord" but who show by their lives that their "faith" is pretence. Then we have the false teachers, mentioned several times in the epistles.

The objection came because Clare had asserted that by this pretend "counterfeit faith" these same people worked miracles, while stating that this is the same faith that could move mountains in 1 Cor 13:2. But Paul wasn't referring to a counterfeit faith at all in that passage.

In 1 Cor 13 Paul was emphasizing the preeminence and superiority of love over any other gift or virtue. Faith is the vehicle to that love because faith is the vehicle to God. We're saved because of and by His love and faith is our means to that love-which is then meant to take root and flourish in us. That's our purpose, the reason we are here.

 

[fhansen]

Which has nothing to do with its truth.

It has to do with whether or not they are discerning the truth to begin with.

 

[fhansen]

Which has nothing to do with its truth.

Fools' gold doesn't negate true gold.

And yet fool's gold is worthless. So if someone possesses it while thinking they have the real thing....what good is that??

 

[Clare73]

The objection came because Clare had asserted that by this pretend "counterfeit faith" these same people worked miracles, while stating that this is the same faith that could move mountains in 1 Cor 13:2. But Paul wasn't referring to a counterfeit faith at all in that passage.

Contraire. . .

1) If you "have nothing," (1 Co 13:2), then your faith was counterfeit, for true faith loves its neighbor and does not end up with "nothing."

2) Clare's example was Mt 7:22-23., not 1 Co 13:2.

 

[fhansen]

1) If you "have nothing" (1 Co 13:2), your faith is counterfeit, for true faith loves his neighbor.

Paul said that he would be nothing with such a faith alone. And he continues to separate faith and love in the same chapter!
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

Augustine echoes this:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

2) Clare's example was Mt 7:22-23., not 1 Co 13:2.

If you go back and read I believe this whole rabbit trail came up because of your objection to my understanding of 1 Cor 13:2. That's why you offered up Matt 7:22-23 as some sort of proof of miracle-working "counterfeit faith" that was supposed to resemble a faith that could move mountains, and this despite the fact that Jesus had already first used the term, referring to a mountain moving true faith in Matt 21.

 

[AbbaLove]

The Holy Spirit has done a fantastic and miraculous job of hiding the true Gospel Faith - a Faith that is repeated and taught plainly throughout the Scriptures - from those who choose to put their faith in their traditions lest they should be saved.

Are you not aware that God is revealing His Son to those of other faiths so that they should be saved and help spread the Good News to others that you may think are undeserving because of their non-Christian faith (Luke 5:32).

Isaiah 6:9-10 (WEB) 9 He said, “Go and tell this people: “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Referring to Religious Jews (God's Chosen), At recent count were 33 Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel.

And this is all by the design of God so as to reveal those who are His - those who give pure devotion to Lord Jesus and His Words - following Him.

The Christian "church" has not replaced Israel (RT/supersessionism) in God's plan. Some classic conservative denominations have more sympathy for Palestinians in Gaza than the Israeli Jews killed by the terrorists from Gaza.

Jesus Reportedly Appearing to Palestinians in Gaza​

Google Search

www.google.com

Hundreds in Gaza have visions of Jesus during Israel war​

I pray that the proud and obstinate in their own wisdom will humble themselves in repentance toward God, and put their faith in Lord Jesus alone for their salvation - following Him. For, the Lord teaches and saves such as these. But the obstinate, God blinds them so they cannot understand.

Isaiah 66:2 (WEB) For my hand has made all these things, and so all these things came to be,” says Yahweh: “but I will look to this man, even to he who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for {{{everyone}}} who exalts himself will be brought low, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Psalms 18:27 (NIV) 27 You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

Psalms 25:8-9 (WEB) Good and upright is Yahweh, therefore he will instruct sinners in the way. 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Psalms 34:18 Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.

2 Samuel 22:28 You save the humble, but your eyes are on the haughty ones to bring them low.

1 Peter 5:5 (WEB) Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." [Proverbs 3:34]

And so, Lord Jesus, as a man-servant of God by the incarnation, was anointed and sent by God the Father to preach the good news to the humble, poor, and crushed to rescue them from bondage, and bring them to salvation - to all who believe in Him (John 3:16).

Luke 4:18-19 (EWEB) 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” [Isaiah 61:1-2]

Mathew 11:28 (WEB) Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.

Every Bible believing Christian denomination could list the same "14 verses" and yet they are not united in SALVATION theology. Each Christian denomination believing they have the best interpretation and understanding that leads to one's SALAVATION.

At least two Christian denominations believe that when an infant of Christian parents has their infant sprinkled with holy water they are "born again". Other Christian denominations teach that not until a Chistian decides to be water immersed baptized do they receive Salvation (OSAS). Reform denominations don't generally believe water baptism immersion is required in order to receive/inherit Salvation.

Jesus talks about those who call Him "Lord, Lord" but who show by their lives that their "faith" is pretence. Then we have the false teachers, mentioned several times in the epistles.

Their "faith" is based on a Religious Specific Theology (i.e. Soteriology)

​

 

[Clare73]

And yet fool's gold is worthless. So if someone possesses it while thinking they have the real thing....what good is that??

It's not about truth itself guaranteeing that one cannot be deceived regarding it,
that true gold itself guarantees that one cannot be deceived regarding it,
that if it can't guarantee that one will not be deceived regarding it, then it cannot be true.
The guilt of deception is on the deceived, not on the truth's failure to guarantee that all will see it.

It's about truth itself guaranteeing what is true, whether or not one can see it to be true.
The unregenerate cannot see and are/will be deceived regarding their "faith," the born again can see and will not be deceived about their faith.

How do we know which we are?
We start with the measure--obedience.

 

[Clare73]

Paul said that he would be nothing with such a faith alone. And he continues to separate faith and love in the same chapter!
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13
Augustine echoes this:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
If you go back and read I believe this whole rabbit trail came up because of your objection to my understanding of 1 Cor 13:2.
That's why you offered up Matt 7:22-23

I offered up Mt 7:22-23, because working miracles does not guarantee true faith.

Mt 7:22-23 presents a faith that works miracles and yet is not true faith, for Jesus said he did not know (have a saving relationship with) them, even though they worked miracles.

as some sort of proof of miracle-working "counterfeit faith" that was supposed to resemble a faith that could move mountains, and this despite the fact that Jesus had already first used the term, referring to a mountain moving true faith in Matt 21.