SALVATION

[setst777]

The patience you have with some individuals here @ CF is worthy of comment. When I read some of your dialogues with others, I think to myself....I couldn't do this....and yet you can. May Jesus continue to grant you guidance in conversing with others. And keep on commenting.

Is it really patience, or is it a matter of just ignoring the obvious?

To be born again (made alive) is by the Spirit indwelling a person (Romans 8:10-11).

Romans 8:9-11 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you 10 But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness 11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

The Spirit will only indwell a person to make alive who first believes - for the Promise is by Faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:14 (NIV) 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Acts 2:38 (EWEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent (change of mind and purpose), and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Eternal Life" in us is the Holy Spirit, and is received by faith.

John 3:16 (WEB) John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[AbbaLove]

The patience you have with some individuals here @ CF is worthy of comment. When I read some of your dialogues with others, I think to myself....I couldn't do this....and yet you can. May Jesus continue to grant you guidance in conversing with others. And keep on commenting.

His theology is "reform" which is a form of Calvinism. It pleases seeker-sensitive believers to hear that they are justified even if they arem't living a sanctified life. It's no wonder so many churches are accepting the seeker-sensitive reform theology. What if a believer decides being holy is next to impossible because they don't think it possible to stop sinning?

So how can a Christian be told they are: "saved", "justified", "born again" and yet they don't think they can live a holy, righteoous sanctified life? They've been convinced they were first "justified" ... so what is their motivation to live a sanctified (holy, righteous life) when they believe they're already justified?

He previously said Paul is "wrong" with his order ... referred to as the "Golden Chain" ...

Romans 8:30 (Have you heard His call and follow Him in a sanctified life)​

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11 (What is the evidence that a Christian has been sanctified)​

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

Yes there is a "justification" for our sins by His Atoning sacrifice, but that doesn't automatically save (justify us). The evidence of our justification has to follow (not precede) a sanctified life. Paul's order is correct !

 

[David Lamb]

His theology is "reform" which is a form of Calvinism. It pleases seeker-sensitive believers to hear that they are justified even if they arem't living a sanctified life. It's no wonder so many churches are accepting the seeker-sensitive reform theology. What if a believer decides being holy is next to impossible because they don't think it possible to stop sinning?

So how can a Christian be told they are: "saved", "justified", "born again" and yet they don't think they can live a holy, righteoous sanctified life? They've been convinced they were first "justified" ... so what is their motivation to live a sanctified (holy, righteous life) when they believe they're already justified?

I hold to what is various called the Doctrines of Grace, Reformed teaching, and Calvinism, but I certainly don't believe that sanctification is unimportant. If someone says that they are a Christian, yet their life is just the same as it always was, that casts grave doubt on their conversion. Most Baptist churches which believe the Doctrines of Grace will have a statement of faith that is based on, or very similar to, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, which states in its chapter on sanctification: "They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally, through the same virtue, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts of it are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

Also, I don't know the situation where you are, but here in the UK, it tends to be the "non-reformed" churches that are more likely to have what you call "seeker sensitive theology." The reformed churches that I know wouldn't embrace seeker sensitive theology.

 

[fhansen]

Luther believed that good works were a sort of byproduct of being justified-and a necessary one. But that these works did not affect one’s salvation because a believer already stood justified in the eyes of God since God had strictly declared him to be righteous- or imputed righteousness to him. The sin that condemns is overcome, as long as one believes.

Augustine believed that good works are a natural result of having been justified because in his view it was a package deal; God forgives and He fills us with grace, the Holy spirit now indwelling. Again, righteousness is a gift. With this grace, he believed, we continue to work out our salvation, now together with God. The sin that condemns is overcome as we remain in Him, now enabled to do His will, no longer a slave to sin. What we do or don't with what we've been given counts, IOW.

Luther was saying that faith gives us grace which excludes us from the need to be righteous whereas Augustine was saying that faith gives us the grace to be righteous, and that we must walk in that righteousness.

 

[AbbaLove]

"They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally, through the same virtue, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them;

"... But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1Corinthians 6:11).​

the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts of it are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

That's why justification follows sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11) along the Golden Chain of SALVATION. Does everyone that is "called" become "holy / righteous" (sanctified)? Post modern (seeker-sensirive) theology would contend that everyone that considers themself a Christian has a "calling" leading to sanctification, justification and a glorified body. (Romans 8:30). What percent of today's "Christians" are living a holy / righteous life (sanctified life)?

If a so-called "born again" Christian finds it nearly impossible to live a holy/righteous life (sanctified) and therefore gives up ... why should they expect to receive a glorified body without justification (Golden Chain order with sanctification preceding justification (

 

[AbbaLove]

Luther believed that good works were a sort of byproduct of being justified-and a necessary one. But that these works did not affect one’s salvation because a believer already stood justified in the eyes of God since God had strictly declared him to be righteous- or imputed righteousness to him. The sin that condemns is overcome, as long as one believes.

That's a flimsy theology that excuses sin (laodicean church) ... even demons believe

Romans 6:15-18​

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness (sanctified).​

Luther was saying that faith gives us grace which excludes us from the need to be righteous whereas Augustine was saying that faith gives us the grace to be righteous, and that we must walk in that righteousness.

Apparently they didn't realize the importance of living a sanctified life (holy/righteous life style) that prededes justification ...​

​

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

​

"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."​

 

[Clare73]

How is the sinner regenerated from spiritual death to spiritual life, according to the Scriptures?

"Regenerate" is new birth. . .by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) whose choice of one is as unaccountable as the wind
(Jn 3:6-8).

We have nothing to do with our spiritual rebirth, just as we had nothing to do with our natural birth.

 

[fhansen]

That's a flimsy theology that excuses sin (laodicean church) ... even demons believe

Agreed. But in fairness Luther, at least, believed that the justified person will do good works but without giving a satisfactory reason (to me, at least) for why he might do so and without acknowledging that he could also fail to do so, as the human will still plays its part throughout our lives in the "equation", according to historic understanding. Works are just sort of automatically guaranteed to a believer in his viewpoint, it seems. But that's not necessarily born out in real life as I see it.

Apparently they didn't realize the importance of living a sanctified life (holy/righteous life style) that prededes justification ...Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard
seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

Well, the church has taught in the past that we can't live righteously until we're reconciled and united with God. And this comes as we turn to Him in faith before all else. The union that results is the union that man was made for-and that Adam spurned. So we don't try to impress God with our righteousness first of all. Rather we turn to Him first of all, for the real thing, for His life of grace in us. A major difference between the old and new covenants is this connection, understanding this union to be primary. From there God does the work as we cooperate. And even the things we do prior to justification that prepare us for it are responses to grace, and yet responses/choices that we can refuse to make even then. We will be tested, we will struggle, we must make effort, we must strive with the ever-present help of the grace of the HS now.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

This speaks of an intimate, direct knowledge, still imperfect in this life and complete only in the next.

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

.

Agreed. But in fairness Luther

I like what Luther once said: God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

 

[fhansen]

I like what Luther once said: God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another quote, I can't remember from who, said that when you do an act of love for your neighbor, who you can see, you do an act for God, who you can't see. Reflects Matt 25: 36-41 Either way, God is pleased.

 

[setst777]

"Regenerate" is new birth. . .by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5)

Didn't Lord Jesus do a good job of explaining to Nicodemus how the new birth happens in John 3:13-18?

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"Eternal Life" in us is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, and is received by faith.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Q: What does "John 7:38-39" mean to you?

Q: Is Eternal Life the New Birth of the Spirit dwelling in us?

Q: When do you have eternal life - by faith, or so we can believe?

"Regenerate" is new birth. . .by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) whose choice of one is as unaccountable as the wind
(Jn 3:6-8).

Question: And who are the ones whom the Holy Spirit chooses to indwell to give life, according to the Scriptures?

The Answer is in the Scriptures:

The Spirit will only indwell a person to make alive who first believes - for the Promise is by Faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:14 (NIV) 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Acts 2:38 (EWEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent (change of mind and purpose), and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We have nothing to to with our spiritual rebirth, just as we had nothing to do with our natural birth.

That is your belief, but can you show by the Scriptures that spiritual rebirth has nothing to do with us?

The Scriptures teach that the Spirit chooses/wills to indwell only those who believe to give them life.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

What does the above Scripture mean to you?

 

[Clare73]

Didn't Lord Jesus do a good job of explaining to Nicodemus how the new birth happens in John 3:13-18?

The new birth is revealed in Jn 3:3-8.

There is nothing in Jn 3:13-18 about rebirth. That is about faith. Rebirth and faith are not the same thing.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
"Eternal Life" in us is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, and is received by faith.
John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Question: And who are the ones whom the Holy Spirit chooses to indwell to give life, according to the Scriptures?

The rebirth precedes the indwelling and faith.

There is neither indwelling nor faith before the new birth, for until then we are spiritually dead.
Spiritually dead people (no rebirth) can do nothing spiritual (see the kingdom of God), just as physically dead people can do nothing physical (see the sun rise).

The Answer is obvious: The Spirit will only indwell a person to make alive who first believes

Are you sure about that?

If they are spiritually dead, by what power do they spiritually believe?

- for the Promise is by Faith:

We are spiritually dead until the new birth into eternal life.
Faith follows the new birth which is by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), whose sovereign choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).
Spiritually dead men cannot believe, they must first be raised to new life in the new birth by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

Don't confuse the work of the Spirit regarding rebirth and faith with the indwelling of the Spirit.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:14 (NIV) 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Acts 2:38 (EWEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent (change of mind and purpose), and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[setst777]

The new birth is revealed in Jn 3:3-8.

I agree, however, in "John 3:3-8" Lord Jesus had not yet explained to Nicodemus when and how we receive the New Birth of Eternal Life by the indwelling Spirit. Lord Jesus explains the "when" and "how" in "John 3:13-18."

There is nothing in Jn 3:13-18 about rebirth.

Is there complete immortality? Clare73 said:
The rebirth is into eternal life in the spirit (John 3:16).

That is about faith. Rebirth and faith are not the same thing.

You did write, numerous times, that the rebirth of the Spirit is Eternal Life.
And Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus that eternal life (rebirth of the Spirit) is by faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:13-18).

When do we receive the Paraclete? Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).

Is believing/faith a work? Clare73 said
"The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

Clare73 said:
Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death? . . .i.e., without eternal life in our human spirit,
which is why we must be reborn into eternal life, imparted to our human spirit in the rebirth of John 3:3.
Just as I stated we are born with a fallen nature?

Clare73 said: We are born in the spiritual death; (i.e., no eternal life, which was lost by Adam) of our fallen (unregenerate) nature. If we die without the rebirth (spiritual resurrection, regeneration) into eternal life, we remain without Christ, and in the spiritual death in which we were born.

Clare73 said: Jesus is not telling Nicodemus that natural birth means birth without a spirit, rather he is telling Nicodemus that eternal life is returned to the human spirit in its rebirth into eternal life by the Holy Spirit.

Is there complete immortality? Clare73 said:
The rebirth is into eternal life in the spirit (John 3:16).

Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

Clare73 said: The justiIfed are always in a state of grace because they are born again into eternal life.

Clare73 said:
Faith/justification/salvation/eternal life are the simultaneous effects of the new birth, which is only by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:7-8)

Clare73 said:
The first resurrection is the rebirth into eternal life of those in the church, now seated in the heavenly realms, reigning with Christ (Eph 2:6).

The rebirth precedes the indwelling and faith.

So now you are refuting yourself?

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

The Spirit must indwell a person to give them spiritual life and eternal life.

By the indwelling Spirit we receive spiritual life from death in the Spirit - regeneration. Do you believe God's Word?

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

There is neither indwelling nor faith before the new birth, for until then we are spiritually dead.

That is your belief. But you adamantly declare that the new birth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life in us, which you say is before faith.

Is believing/faith a work? Clare73 said
"The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

In contrast to your belief, Lord Jesus plainly taught that we receive this eternal life of the Spirit by faith.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Eternal Life is the rebirth of the indwelling Spirit, which you repeatedly stated in your posts, which I quoted for you.

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

Spiritually dead people (no rebirth) can do nothing spiritual (see the kingdom of God), just as physically dead people can do nothing physical (see the sun rise).

That is your belief, but you are contradicting Lord Jesus.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

You are also contradicting the Apostle John.

John 20:31 (WEB) 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life [regeneration] in his name.

If they are spiritually dead, by what power do they spiritually believe?

What did Lord Jesus state?

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the {{light of life}}.”
The light of life is regeneration and is God’s Work in those who follow Lord Jesus.

We are spiritually dead until the new birth into eternal life.

Lord Jesus explains how and when the spiritually dead cross over into spiritual life:

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

After so many years of refuting Lord Jesus, will you now believe Lord Jesus?

Faith follows the new birth which is by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), whose sovereign choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

That is your belief. But by holding to your own wisdom, you are rejecting Lord Jesus' teaching.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

To us, we see that the Spirit goes where it wills. However, Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus that the will of the Spirit is to give eternal life (rebirth of the Spirit) to whoever believes in him (John 3:16).

Spiritually dead men cannot believe, they must first be raised to new life in the new birth by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

That is your belief. But by holding to your own wisdom, you are rejecting Lord Jesus' teaching.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Don't confuse the work of the Spirit regarding rebirth and faith with the indwelling of the Spirit.

You are the only one confused.

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

Clare73 said:
Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death? . . .i.e., without eternal life in our human spirit,
which is why we must be reborn into eternal life, imparted to our human spirit in the rebirth of John 3:3.

Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).

Clare73 said
"The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Clare73 said: Jesus is not telling Nicodemus that natural birth means birth without a spirit, rather he is telling Nicodemus that eternal life is returned to the human spirit in its rebirth into eternal life by the Holy Spirit.

Is there complete immortality? Clare73 said:
The rebirth is into eternal life in the spirit (John 3:16).

Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.

Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

 

[AbbaLove]

Is his "reformed" theology possibly Calvinism or is his "Calvinsim" possibly reform theology? Either way the basis of his SALVATION theology is predestination (see underlined portion of verse 29). Which is understood as living a holy / righteous life free from sin. Living a sanctified life (SALVATION) isn't possible without ministering in the Gifts as determined by the Holy Spirit (wisdom, the word of knowledge, increased faith, the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, prophecy, the discernment of spirits, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues) as need be.

IOW ... Faith is provided by God, Calling is from God, Sanctificaton comes from God, Justtification is only possible by God ... Glorified body.

The only way his reform / Calvin theology apparently can work is with Justification preceding Sanctification. He has previously posted that Paul's following (Golden Chain) order is "wrong" with sanctified preceding justification. The only problem is he's a stickler on the inerrancy of scripture (its utter truthfulness) so he prefers his theology.

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

​

Romans 8:29-31​

29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.​

30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?​

 

[AbbaLove]

In review of reform / Calvin thrology basically seems to believe that it's not possible to be the initiater of SALVATION by inviting Jesus to come abide/dwell in your heart. IOW it was predestined by God.

IOW a reformer/Calvin theology believes those that are predestined are not doing anything on their own to receive salvation as even their faith isn't their own doing, but predestined by God.

If that were true then OSAS is plausible as there's nothing a believer can do to lose their justification, calling, sanctification other than the enemy telling them they aren't really saved.

 

[fhansen]

In review of reform / Calvin thrology basically seems to believe that it's not possible to be the initiater of SALVATION by inviting Jesus to come abide/dwell in your heart. IOW it was predestined by God.

IOW a reformer/Calvin theology believes those that are predestined are not doing anything on their own to receive salvation as even their faith isn't their own doing, but predestined by God.

If that were true then OSAS is plausible as there's nothing a believer can do to lose their justification, calling, sanctification other than the enemy telling them they aren't really saved.

Yes, this would be correct.

The way it works from everything I've ever understood is that God, by His grace, draws us to faith first of all but we can still resist that grace. But He has to initiate it. Once He gets a "yes" from us He begins doing a work and it's a joint effort with Him leading and us responding. As the work proceeds, our yes should grow stronger, whether to faith, hope, or love, and the good works that flow from those virtues should grow as well. And our salvation, itself, becomes all the more sure. But we can still turn back and walk away from it all at any time.

 

[Clare73]

I agree, however, in "John 3:3-8" Lord Jesus had not yet explained to Nicodemus when and how we receive the New Birth of Eternal Life by the indwelling Spirit. Lord Jesus explains the "when" and "how" in "John 3:13-18."

Good job. . .

Actually, the when and how are set forth in Jn 3:3-8,
by sovereign (based on absolutely nothing but his will) choice of the Holy Spirit,
whose choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), doing as he wills (i.e, sovereign, based on absolutely nothing but his choice).

Jn 3:14-15 - ". . .the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Did I say there is anyone who believes in him that does not have eternal life?

Is there complete immortality?
Clare73 said: The rebirth is into eternal life in the spirit (John 3:16).

Meaning rebirth by the Spirit into eternal life within our immortal spirit, which eternal life within our immortal spirit was lost by Adam in the fall--Ge 2:7: "Dying (spiritually), you shall die (physically)," and is received again in our new birth of the Holy Spirit.

There is complete immortality of the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit indwells, which indwelling is eternal life.
Immortality of the human spirit itself, and indwelling of that immortal human spirit by the immortal/eternal Holy Spirit, are not the same thing.
Loss of eternal life within the immortal human spirit is not loss of the life of the immortal human spirit.

You did write, numerous times, that the rebirth of the Spirit is Eternal Life.
And Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus that eternal life (rebirth of the Spirit) is by faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:13-18).

Rebirth of/by the Holy Spirit is into eternal life. . .therefore rebirth of/by the Spirit is eternal life.
When do we receive the Paraclete?

When do we receive the Paraclete?
Clare73 said: Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8)
Is believing/faith a work?
Clare73 said "The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

That is, those who are spiritually dead (no eternal life/God's life within their immortal human spirit)
are spiritually re-born (receive eternal life/God's life within their immortal human spirit.) . .for
Adam was created with it, having lost it in the fall (Ge 2:7: "Dying (spiritually), you shall. . .)

Clare73 said: Y ou've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).
Clare73 said: Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death? . . .i.e., without eternal life in our human spirit,
which is why we must be reborn into eternal life, imparted to our human spirit in the rebirth of John 3:3.
Just as I stated we are born with a fallen nature?
Clare73 said: We are born in the spiritual death; (i.e., no eternal life, which was lost by Adam) of our fallen (unregenerate) nature. If we die without the rebirth (spiritual resurrection, regeneration) into eternal life, we remain without Christ, and in the spiritual death in which we were born.
Clare73 said: Jesus is not telling Nicodemus that natural birth means birth without a spirit, rather he is telling Nicodemus that eternal life is returned to the human spirit in its rebirth into eternal life by the Holy Spirit.
Is there complete immortality?
Clare73 said: The rebirth is into eternal life in the spirit (John 3:16).
Clare73 said: Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.
Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.
Clare73 said: The justiIfed are always in a state of grace because they are born again into eternal life.
Clare73 said: Faith/justification/salvation/eternal life are the simultaneous effects of the new birth, which is only by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:7-8)
Clare73 said: The first resurrection is the rebirth into eternal life of those in the church, now seated in the heavenly realms, reigning with Christ (Eph 2:6).
So now you are refuting yourself?
Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).
Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.
Clare73 said:
Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

Where have I denied any of the above.

The Spirit must indwell a person to give them spiritual life and eternal life.

That is what the rebirth is. . .the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who gives the gift of faith (Php 1:29, Ac 13:58, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) in Jesus Christ.
The immortal human spirit has it own spiritual (natural) life (natural life of the immortal human spirit), but it does not have Spiritual life (of the Holy Spirit).

By the indwelling Spirit we receive spiritual life from death in the Spirit - regeneration.

Agreed. . .we are without eternal life, spiritually (Holy Spirit) dead in our trespasses and sins.
The Holy Spirit sovereignly rebirths into eternal life whomever he pleases (Jn 3:3-5), over which we have no control (Jn 3:6-8), just as we have no control over our natural birth.
In that rebirth, we are made willing to believe, which we do upon learning of the gospel.

Do you believe God's Word?

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

"Righteousness" (dikaiosune) is due to justification (dikaiosis) by faith (Ro 3:28).

That is your belief. But you adamantly declare that the new birth of the indwelling Spirit is eternal life in us, which you say is before faith.

Faith is the cause of the righteousness by which the spirit is alive.

faith --> righteousness --> life of the spirit

 

[Clare73]

Is believing/faith a work?
Clare73 said
"The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).

In contrast to your belief, Lord Jesus plainly taught that we receive this eternal life of the Spirit by faith.
John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Did I say that any who believe in him do/should not have eternal life?

Eternal Life is the rebirth of the indwelling Spirit, which you repeatedly stated in your posts, which I quoted for you.

Eternal Life is God's life within the immortal human spirit through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which eternal life Adam had, and then lost.

The Holy Spirit is not reborn.

Our immortal human spirits are reborn to/into eternal life, which they had lost, and did not have.

Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).
Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.
Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.
That is your belief, but you are contradicting Lord Jesus.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you,
he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration],
and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].
John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

That refers to Pentecost and the special gifting to enable them to take the gospel to the world.
It does not refer to the new birth (Jn 20:22).

You are also contradicting the Apostle John.
John 20:31 (WEB) 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life [regeneration] in his name.
living water = Holy Spirit, eternal life
What did Lord Jesus state?
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

Have I said that he who believes him who sent Jesus does not have eternal life in his name?

John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the {{light of life}}.”
The light of life is regeneration and is God’s Work in those who follow Lord Jesus.

God is light (1 Jn 1:5).
Jesus is also the light from God that lights the way for life--as the pillar of fire lighted the way for the Israelites.

Have I said that any who follow him will not have the light?

Lord Jesus explains how and when the spiritually dead cross over into spiritual life:
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].
John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

They received the Spirit in Jn 20:22.

To us, we see that the Spirit goes where it wills. However, Lord Jesus explained to Nicodemus that the will of the Spirit is to give eternal life (rebirth of the Spirit) to whoever believes in him (John 3:16).

Did I say that any who believe do not have eternal life?

That is your belief. But by holding to your own wisdom, you are rejecting Lord Jesus' teaching.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].
John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

In Jn 20:22.

You are the only one confused.
Clare73 said:
You've got the cart before the horse, the rebirth is into eternal life of the Spirit, which eternal life is his indwelling us. Eternal life is by the Holy Spirit living in us. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the result of our faith, he is the cause of it.
Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3).
Clare73 said:
Did I not state that we are born in spiritual death? . . .i.e., without eternal life in our human spirit,
which is why we must be reborn into eternal life, imparted to our human spirit in the rebirth of John 3:3.
Clare73 said:
Since Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit in his sovereign rebirth of us into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8).
Clare73 said
"The Spirit gives birth to eternal life;" i.e., eternal life itself is born in regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
Clare73 said: Jesus is not telling Nicodemus that natural birth means birth without a spirit, rather he is telling Nicodemus that eternal life is returned to the human spirit in its rebirth into eternal life by the Holy Spirit.
Is there complete immortality?
Clare73 said:
The rebirth is into eternal life in the spirit (John 3:16).
Clare73 said:
Born again is rebirth from spiritual death into eternal life.
Clare73 said: Eternal life is God's life in one's spirit by the rebirth.

None of the above do I deny. . .

Did I just respond to a wall of cut and paste?

 

[AbbaLove]

As the work proceeds, our yes should grow stronger, whether to faith, hope, or love, and the good works that flow from those virtues should grow as well. And our salvation, itself, becomes all the more sure. But we can still turn back and walk away from it all at any time.

Ephesians 2:10 “For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

"But we can still turn back and walk away from it all at any time."​

No! Not if we've been sanctified (sanct-saint = holy-righteous). That's why Paul is correct when he writes that being justified can't precede sanctification in the event someone should turn back.

A Calvinist would contend that even though Jonah resisted his "calling" he finally relented and took up his "calling" in spite of himself. And therefore he was sanctified which some believe should follow justificaation as the final proof of one's irresistable committment. Calvinist theology might contend that a believer (first justified) will eventually heed their calling (not turn back) ... so a Calvinist would believe that sanctification (holy-righteous) enabling eternal security and a glorified body follows one's justification and not Paul's Golden Chain order (1 Corinthians 6:11)

 

[fhansen]

No! Not if we've been sanctified (sanct-saint = holy-righteous). That's why Paul is correct when he writes that being justified can't precede sanctification in the event someone should turn back.

Not sure what you mean. Sanctification is an ongoing process. There’s no end to holiness, IOW, in how much we can grow in love to put it another way. There’s also no point in this life at which we can’t turn away from God, to reject love, meaning OSAS is a lie. Either way, we can’t predict our own perseverance, and persevere we must. Picking up our cross is a daily choice.