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Absolute proof.. can't deny.. the earth is flat

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trophy33

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Flat earth works at least as well as globe earth does.
Absolutely not, flat earthers are not even able to construct a simplified model. It always contradicts what we experience and even plenty of the flat earther's own claims.

Remember, the modern consensus ""empirical"" view of the cosmos holds that 90% of its matter is unknowable and undetectable, and only there to rescue the cosmological model from falling apart... Does that 'work', in your opinion?
This has nothing with globe vs flat earth, its related to the mass and acceleration of galaxies.

Why does the Bible teach about cosmology and creation?
Because the biblical authors wanted to create a polemic with the Babylonian and Assyrian polytheistic creation stories. Monotheism (Yahvism) is the teaching, bible does not teach any science.

Is it wrong to believe that Biblical history is also rooted in flesh and blood reality, even if the modern scientific consensus says otherwise?
In the context of the flat earth, yes.

Why isn't the whole Bible like this? Why did we need all of that cumbersome unhelpful history in the Old Testament?
We did not need it. It was not written to us. Babylonian Jews needed it for their own cultural reasons.

it is the Christians who are holding fast to believing what the Bible says... they are the real problem. Because, why? They question the modern scientific consensus?
Because they preach as dogma something that is not a dogma and destroy the faith of people, when those people learn the biblical cosmology does not exist, for example in schools or in their jobs.
 
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Apple Sky

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Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

The Great Domes in the world

 
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lifepsyop

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Absolutely not, flat earthers are not even able to construct a simplified model. It always contradicts what we experience and even plenty of the flat earth claims.

This statement could not possibly be more wrong. The world was expertly navigated by a geocentric flat earth model for over a millennia. It works extremely well according to virtually all observation.

Most of what globe earth / heliocentric theory does is take what we do see and mathematically invert the reality of it... (that's when not simply fudging data to conform to a 3D model of a globe.)

There was a famous quote by a renowned 20th century astrophysicist... (I forget his name, but I promise I'll dig it up if you want..) He said that you could take all the data of a heliocentric system and make it work equally well in a geocentric system. What you chose was merely a matter of your philosophical stance. If I recall correctly, Einstein said something similar.

Smart people can create an entire virtual reality with math if they are determined enough to do so.

This has nothing with globe vs flat earth, its related to the mass and acceleration of galaxies.

So when is the last time you joined a mainstream science forum to criticize those Christians for believing in a model that doesn't work?

A 'Big-Bang' cosmological model that has to invent 90% of itself to maintain itself is a model that clearly does not work, and according to you that is a pretty big deal.

The reason I bring this up is because I think it reveals that this flat/globe earth debate is not actually over scientific evidence, but something more ideological and philosophical, which is why it seems to strike a nerve in everyone.


Because the biblical authors wanted to create a polemic with the Babylonian and Assyrian polytheistic creation stories. The monotheism (Yahvism) is the teaching, bible does not teach any science.

You are having the tail wag the dog. The Biblical authors wrote that Babylon and Assyria descended from Noah. If anything, the Israelites were reclaiming a cosmology that had "evolved" uniquely among different cultures, not copying someone else's.

Just think of the magi visiting the newborn Christ. These men were from distant lands but still had in their tradition access to prophecy that correctly predicted the exact time and place of the birth of Jesus. Just because these are accounts held by pagan nations, does not mean they are necessarily incorrect. They also all have cultural memories of the worldwide flood, the confusing of languages at Babel, etc.


Okay, then you are just putting current scientific consensus on the same level as divine revelation. What is a higher authority? It cannot be wrong and to question it is blasphemy.


We did not need it. It was not written to us. Babylonian Jews needed it for their own cultural reasons.

The apostle Paul was the original preacher to the gentile world and he clearly did not have that view of scripture. And there is also a clear biblical record of the Jews before and after their Babylonian exile.

Because they preach as dogma something that is not a dogma and destroy the faith of people, when those people learn the biblical cosmology does not exist, for example in schools or in their jobs.

I don't believe that actually happens.

All my life I never encountered Christians pushing geocentrism or a flat-earth and still watched nearly everyone around me flock to atheism, agnosticism, new-age spirituality, etc., most of whom even came out of a Christian environment. My generation is the one where nearly everyone grew up going to church on Sunday, but by adulthood the majority did not consider themselves a Christian. And none of us ever had Christians pushing flat-earth on us.

However, all of us were repeatedly taught through various education programs that Science had proven the Bible was largely a book of mythology, thanks to Copernicus, Galileo, etc. and the heroes of the scientific enlightenment that liberated humanity from its dark age.
 
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trophy33

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This statement could not possibly be more wrong.
Feel free to present a working flat earth model. You will be the first.

So when is the last time you joined a mainstream science forum to criticize those Christians for believing in a model that doesn't work?
I am not on science forums. And again, the dark matter and the dark energy are hypothetical concepts explaining why galaxies are moving faster from each other than they should and why they are not falling apart. It does not mean that the earth is flat. It has nothing to do with our solar system or anything similar.

A 'Big-Bang' cosmological model that has to invent 90% of itself to maintain itself is a model that clearly does not work, and according to you that is a pretty big deal.
Still the same answer, for the third time, like above.

The reason I bring this up is because I think it reveals that this flat/globe earth debate is not actually over scientific evidence, but something more ideological and philosophical, which is why it seems to strike a nerve in everyone.
For the fourth time, the dark matter and the dark energy has nothing to do with whether the earth is flat or a globe.

You are having the tail wag the dog. The Biblical authors wrote that Babylon and Assyria descended from Noah. If anything, the Israelites were reclaiming a cosmology that had "evolved" uniquely among different cultures, not copying someone else's.
Genesis was most probably written during the Babylonian era. Jews wanted to create their own cultural creation and origin story.

Just think of the magi visiting the newborn Christ. These men were from distant lands but still had in their tradition access to prophecy that correctly predicted the exact time and place of the birth of Jesus. Just because these are accounts held by pagan nations, does not mean they are necessarily incorrect. They also all have cultural memories of the worldwide flood, the confusing of languages at Babel, etc.
Astrology is not a prophecy.

Okay, then you are just putting current scientific consensus on the same level as divine revelation. What is a higher authority? It cannot be wrong and to question it is blasphemy.
The New Testament has the authority regarding theology, scientific consensus has the authority regarding science. The Old Testament is neither theologically or scientifically authoritative for today's Christians, but it can be still useful for Christianity, for example to better understand the Jewish context of the first church.

However, all of us were repeatedly taught through various education programs that Science had proven the Bible was largely a book of mythology, thanks to Copernicus, Galileo, etc. and the heroes of the scientific enlightenment that liberated humanity from its dark age.
Thats where deeper education comes into play. Its not so black and white and what you refer to seems as a demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
 
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lifepsyop

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Feel free to present a working flat earth model. You will be the first.

It works just as well as a spherical earth model, if not better operationally. (nobody ever factors in earth curve or motion to how they operate in the world, it's as if they are essentially non-factors)

Much is still unknown of course. I don't think we'll ever have a perfect model of anything.

For the fourth time, the dark matter and the dark energy has nothing to do with whether the earth is flat or a globe.

Not accurate. The belief in dark matter relates directly back to fundamental beliefs of how gravity works and how the supposedly spherical earth and solar system is held together.

And again, it also shows a lack of concern over actual observational evidence for modern cosmology.

If a flat earther invents an object to rescue their model from falsification, I imagine you would take that as proof of the failure of their model.

When modern cosmology does it, you seem not at all bothered... and still maintain it as an ultimate authority.

The point of all of this being that the deeper contention is not about evidence but philosophy.


Genesis was most probably written during the Babylonian era. Jews wanted to create their own cultural creation and origin story.

Well, here's one piece of evidence that you're probably wrong about that.

"Based on our new analysis and reading of these texts, we can reaffirm with confidence that the late preexilic period is the proper chronological context for the artifacts. We can further reassert the conclusion reached by most scholars: that the inscriptions found on these plaques preserve the earliest known citations of texts also found in the Hebrew Bible and that they provide us with the earliest examples of confessional statements concerning Yahweh."

 
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trophy33

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It works just as well as a spherical earth model, if not better operationally. (nobody ever factors in earth curve or motion to how they operate in the world, it's as if they are essentially non-factors)

Much is still unknown of course. I don't think we'll ever have a perfect model of anything.
You do not need to have a perfect model, just a working model, explaining all the basic things the solar system explains. Present such a model.

Not accurate. The belief in dark matter relates directly back to fundamental beliefs of how gravity works and how the supposedly spherical earth and solar system is held together.

And again, it also shows a lack of concern over actual observational evidence for modern cosmology.

If a flat earther invents an object to rescue their model from falsification, I imagine you would take that as proof of the failure of their model.

When modern cosmology does it, you seem not at all bothered... and still maintain it as an ultimate authority.

The point of all of this being that the deeper contention is not about evidence but philosophy.
Its changing nothing regarding the topic. We just do not know yet why are galaxies accelerating faster etc. It may be something hidden we have not discovered yet. It does not mean the globe does not exist or that the Moon is not a real physical object we landed on or anything of this kind, so its totally irrelevant for this thread.

Well, here's one piece of evidence that you're probably wrong about that.

"Based on our new analysis and reading of these texts, we can reaffirm with confidence that the late preexilic period is the proper chronological context for the artifacts. We can further reassert the conclusion reached by most scholars: that the inscriptions found on these plaques preserve the earliest known citations of texts also found in the Hebrew Bible and that they provide us with the earliest examples of confessional statements concerning Yahweh."

It is supposed to be a text similar to a text in the book of Numbers and they guess its from circa 600 BC. Its actually quite different, even though some similarity can be found. And?
 
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prodromos

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This statement could not possibly be more wrong.
Fact check false
The world was expertly navigated by a geocentric flat earth model for over a millennia. It works extremely well according to virtually all observation.
Who are these navigators you are referring to? Where were they navigating to and from?
Most of what globe earth / heliocentric theory does is take what we do see and mathematically invert the reality of it... (that's when not simply fudging data to conform to a 3D model of a globe.)
This is false as I've explained before. At some point I'll make some pretty pictures for the geometrically challenged among us.
There was a famous quote by a renowned 20th century astrophysicist... (I forget his name, but I promise I'll dig it up if you want..) He said that you could take all the data of a heliocentric system and make it work equally well in a geocentric system. What you chose was merely a matter of your philosophical stance. If I recall correctly, Einstein said something similar.
Geocentric globe model, not flat earth model, and the geocentric model runs into problems with breaking the speed of light.
 
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prodromos

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If flat earthers could explain why the sun never goes below the horizon at the poles for six months and doesn't rise above it for another six months. I might consider it.
They refuse to acknowledge that it happens in Antarctica, and refuse to go there to witness it even when it is an all expenses paid trip. Such is the bankruptcy of their position.
 
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Apple Sky

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They refuse to acknowledge that it happens in Antarctica, and refuse to go there to witness it even when it is an all expenses paid trip. Such is the bankruptcy of their position.

Eric Dubay has explained why this is just a waste time;

 
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Apple Sky

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Eric Dubay is a waste of time. All the guy does is lie.

Is Eric Dabay a liar or does he state the truth ?


Are all flat earthers liars or do they state the truth ?
 
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prodromos

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Apple Sky

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Eric Dubay is a liar.

Many flat earthers are just confused or misled. They aren't necessarily liars.

Unlike NASA's leaders who work for the father of lies.
 
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trophy33

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If flat earthers could explain why the sun never goes below the horizon at the poles for six months and doesn't rise above it for another six months. I might consider it.
But first, they should actually explain why the sun goes below the horizon before it disappears, on most places, without getting any smaller.

Even for this simple observation, they need to put their leg behind their neck.
 
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Apple Sky

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But first, they should actually explain why the sun goes below the horizon before it disappears, on most places, without getting any smaller.

It's a matter perspective; This has been explained before..........

 
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lifepsyop

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They refuse to acknowledge that it happens in Antarctica,

Why should anyone have to acknowledge something for which there is so little documented evidence for?

Look at it this way. I can easily find hours of footage and high quality timelapses of the sun from virtually every other location on earth, except for Antarctica.

Your excuse for the lack of rigorous documentation is that Antarctica is hard to get to, thus affirming the lack of rigorous documentation.

Basically, your certainty on the subject is just stemming from your strong commitment to a globe earth model, not in any real understanding or knowledge of the subject itself.

and refuse to go there to witness it even when it is an all expenses paid trip. Such is the bankruptcy of their position.

I see right now that two are signed up to go, so what's your justification to keep saying this? How bankrupt is your position if you are having to make things up like that?
 
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trophy33

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It's a matter perspective; This has been explained before..........

I will not watch these nonsense videos, giving them them views/money. Tell me the summary in your own words.

I hope you will not refuse to do that, like in previous similar cases. Really, try to understand his explanation so that you can tell me. I suspect you do not understand the explanations of the flat earthers too much, thats why you just post various videos, hoping it will work.

I have been watching flat earth videos few years back, even debates, when they were quite trending on youtube, it was amusing. But I am not interested anymore, I will rather watch something about economy.
 
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