There is no Free Will PERIOD

[AbbaLove]

Truth is all that should matter here, not our own interpretations ...

God Bless.

Yes, but you are certainly aware that truth is in the eye of the Christian's theology. Even among those that believe they are "born again" with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit believe that Paul's order of salvation is "wrong". while their own interpretation (supported by scripture) is the correct order ...

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)]/indent]​

​

Paul's order is with ones sanctication / calling preceding justification (1 Corinthians 6:11, Romans 8:30)...​

​

... you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and [a]in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)​

... and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)​

​

Commentaries generally agree that one's "calling" begins one's sanctification; and agree with Paul's order (Romans 8:30) that justification (not sanctificaton) precedes a glorified body.​

​

We are aware how theologians are divided on the order of salvation causing disunity in the body. of Christendom. We hear opposing theologans both claiming to be born again with the indwelling presence (teaching) of the Holy Spirit. So your comment is saddly almost laughable considering the state of Christianity for centuries. Million of Christians believe when an infant is sprinkled with holy water (baptized) they are born again. Then modern reform seeker-sensitive Christianity teaches that water baptism isn't necessary. Has Christendom become as displeasing to the Lord as was the state of Judaism at the time of Christ Jesus?​

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, but you are certainly aware that truth is in the eye of the Christian's theology. Even among those that believe they are "born again" with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit believe that Paul's order of salvation is "wrong". while their own interpretation (supported by scripture) is the correct order ...

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)]/indent]​

​

Paul's order is with ones sanctication / calling preceding justification (1 Corinthians 6:11, Romans 8:30)...​

​

... you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and [a]in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)​

... and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)​

​

Commentaries generally agree that one's "calling" begins one's sanctification; and agree with Paul's order (Romans 8:30) that justification (not sanctificaton) precedes justification.​

​

We are aware how theologians are divided on the order of salvation causing disunity in the body. of Christendom. We hear opposing theologans both claiming to be born again with the indwelling presence (teaching) of the Holy Spirit. So your comment is saddly almost laughable considering the state of Christianity for centuries. Million of Christians believe when an infant is sprinkled with holy water (baptized) they are born again. Then modern reform seeker-sensitive Christianity teaches that water baptism isn't necessary. Has Christendom become as displeasing to the Lord as was the state of Judaism at the time of Christ Jesus?​

From God the Heavenly Father's perspective, a person is saved or not saved already from before the foundations of the world, or from before the world was very first started, and/or made. So it is petty to argue about these things, etc. It like asking the question "the chicken or the egg", etc.

The only thing that truly matters is whether a person is or is not saved.

What came first, or first or last or whatever, doesn't matter in the end, but it only matters whether or not, in or by the end of it, a person either is, or is not, truly saved.

And we cannot judge that for sure when it comes to other people either, or even ourselves even, etc, which is where man makes an error in thinking he can, or thinks he can know for sure whether on not an individual person either is or is not, or will or might not be or not, be or end or wind up truly saved.

If even God in the OT or Jesus couldn't always know this for sure, then I don't know where man gets off thinking he can, or can know or judge this for sure or not, of who either is or is not truly saved.

If even God in the OT and Jesus has to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then so should we, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Rose_bud]

Hi Rose_Bud

Notice carefully what Paul states:

Gal 1:15 But when He who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,​

​

On the one hand, I can understand your interpretation of thinking that Paul had been set apart to be of the Jewish nation. But Paul goes on to say that God, through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son. And the reason God was pleased to do so is so that Paul would preach His gospel to the Gentile. God didn't reveal Himself to anyone else on the Damacus Road that we're aware of. Only to Paul. In Galatians we see that God had a specific purpose for Paul and directly saved him for this purpose. This then goes back to the first part "But when He...", that God had set Paul apart for this specific task.

So just when did God set Paul apart to reveal His Son to him? It was before the foundation of the world when it was determined that Christ would die for our sins.

And I understand your point of view, but Paul is establishing his credibility as an apostle of God to present to his audience that salvation is available to everyone through faith, not just to his chosen ethnicity. Although he was born a Jew, even that is not sufficient. There is no special person endowed with privilege, except for Christ. No one can claim elect status based on ethnicity or social status. The entry point is faith, which is our response to the measure of faith given to us by God. Yes, God is the source and initiator of our salvation, providing us with everything we need to respond to Him, but we still need to respond with an "Amen". And as His called-out ones, we each have a role to play in the grand scheme of things, but that is dependent on our response to the offer He has divinely arranged for us.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you​

This passages is about Jesus, not Paul or Peter.
God knew of His plan of redemption for all of humanity, not just the special selection of people to be redeemed. He died for all, as many who would receive Him.

David says exactly the same thing in Psalm 22 about his salvation:

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;​

You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.​

10 I was cast upon You from birth;​

You have been my God from my mother’s womb.​

God was David's God before he was even born.

This is a messianic poetic Psalm of lament of Jesus crucifixion.

It can be broken down in the following manner.

Verse 1-2 (the cry), Verse 3-5 (confession of trust), verse 6-8(address to God ) 9-10 (acknowledgement of trust) 11 (request for help), verse 12-18(the problem), verse 19-21 (request for help), verse 22-31 (vow of praise)

In light of what Jesus endured this is an acknowledgment of trust in God as the One who knows Him and will deliver Him. Trust is a key word in the Psalm. Its about Jesus unwavering Trust in God regardless of His suffering, a model for us all.

We are saved by the grace of God, and this is not of yourself.

I believe this as well, it is God's grace and his mercy, he is the source and initiator, but it is our responsibility to respond.

Notice what John states:

John1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born,​

1) not of blood,​

2) nor of the will of the flesh,​

3) nor of the will of a man, (man's free choice)​

but of God.​

Notice the order in John 1:12,
God initiates extending the gift of salvation to all who would receive it. (As many as)
They respond by accepting the gift (received him)
They obtain new status (the right to become children of God).
As a result, they are born again, born from above.

As you said we are children of God, not because of our heritage, or by our human efforts alone, or because of a husband's decision. It is a divine work of God.

This gift is freely offered, unmerited, and unearned. Our role is to either accept or reject it. By receiving the gift, we acknowledge our need for salvation and trust in God's provision.

It's just the way it is. That is why when you witness to one person you get nothing but a cold shoulder. When you witness to someone else, the light bulb comes on and they are brought to repentence. It is simply the way the Spirit moves. Why God works like this I don't know. It is part of His mysterious will.

Just one more note. Some people think this is view of God is TOTALLY unfair of God. Everyone should have a choice. Well, not everyone does. People on islands, in distant lands, and even your next door neighbor might never heard the gospel or simply don't care to hear the gospel.

The real truth of the matter is that none of us deserves to be saved. We are all sinners and deserve Hell. That God saves a remnant shows to us that 1) God is merciful, and 2) God is gracious. We should thank and praise God that we have been rescued out of the bondage of sin. We shouldn't be questioning, "Why not Mary or Joe?"

We agree on Gods Sovereignty, His grace and unmerited favour, where we appear to differ is in our understanding of God's desire to have humanity freely respond to this offer. I see God's sovereignty working through our human choice of accepting or rejecting Him. But I'm also fully aware that these discussions are complex.

Yes we should be thankful and praising God for our salvation, but we should also be interceding for Mary or Joe and also asking how we can be a practical part of their salvation journey. The disciples did so until they were told to shake the dust... have you been told to give up on Mary and Joe?

 

[Strong in Him]

Closer attention to text would really be helpful.

Answering my questions would be really helpful.

 

[Clare73]

Answering my questions would be really helpful.

I've answered your questions.

 

[rturner76]

Because there were some things God in the OT and Jesus didn't know, like who or how many specifically could be saved.

Matthew 19:25–26 (NKJV): "When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved? But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, (nor the Son) but My Father only."

Acts 1:7 (NKJV): "And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

John 14:28 (NKJV): "You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I (am)."

I think you are confused. In each of your quoted Bible verses there is no indication that God has predestined us to heaven or hell. There is a difference between God knowing what we will do and God controlling what we do.

"With God all things are possible" means if we choose him we will be saved.

Also "But of that day and hour no one knows" does not mean that God predestined us to heaven or hell. What Jesus is referring to is that nobody knows when the day of judgment will be. Again, that does not indicate that God has predestined our judgment. In fact it's the opposite. Why would there be a day of judgment if we have no choice whether to believe or not?

Again, I sa that you seem to put more faith n John Calvin than our Lord Jesus Christ. Is Calvin our savior or is Jesus. You must put your faith in the triune God and not place your faith in the hands of a man who wasn't even clergy but a lawyer.

Nothing you quoted gives any indication that we do not have the ability to freely choose God or not. You have been deceived and thus you are attempting to decide others.

Stop it. Why go against the word of God to follow a 16th-century lawyer instead of those who sat at the feet of the savior and were taught the truth. Place your faith in the risen Chrst and not a slick talking lawyer.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think you are confused. In each of your quoted Bible verses there is no indication that God has predestined us to heaven or hell. There is a difference between God knowing what we will do and God controlling what we do.

"With God all things are possible" means if we choose him we will be saved.

Also "But of that day and hour no one knows" does not mean that God predestined us to heaven or hell. What Jesus is referring to is that nobody knows when the day of judgment will be. Again, that does not indicate that God has predestined our judgment. In fact it's the opposite. Why would there be a day of judgment if we have no choice whether to believe or not?

Again, I sa that you seem to put more faith n John Calvin than our Lord Jesus Christ. Is Calvin our savior or is Jesus. You must put your faith in the triune God and not place your faith in the hands of a man who wasn't even clergy but a lawyer.

Nothing you quoted gives any indication that we do not have the ability to freely choose God or not. You have been deceived and thus you are attempting to decide others.

Stop it. Why go against the word of God to follow a 16th-century lawyer instead of those who sat at the feet of the savior and were taught the truth. Place your faith in the risen Chrst and not a slick talking lawyer.

First off, I have never ever studied John Calvin, and nor do I even know what it is that he believes, etc.

And secondly, I am not deceiving anybody, but I think it is the rest of you don't know the whole truth about things, etc.

And lastly, if you follow any kind of logic at all, then I believe you will be seeing the very same things that I am seeing.

You are only rejecting it because it messes with your current theology, or what you want to be true or not true about things, but you will never get to real truth that way.

And so, I think it is the rest of you who are being decieved by that, if anything.

And I guess I don't truly expect you to be truly objective about things.

I would encourage you to go back a couple of pages in this thread and re-read, very carefully and slowly, what I have been saying, or have already said in this thread so far most recently.

Because I'm not going to keep repeating or re-repeating the very same things over and over and over again endlessly.

Logic, and reason, and 100% objectivity, will always agree with me about this 100% wholeheartedly.

And so will the Bible, and theology, if you can update all of your previously held preconceived notions or own personal ideas about the way it has to be interpreted/known classically.

God Bless.

 

[HarleyER]

I really don’t know a whole lot about Augustine’s work because I didn’t study it very much. The reason being is that he retracted a lot of his own work and it’s really hard to find that piece of literature. Furthermore I would suggest looking to the earliest writings of the church to find evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted, not fourth century writings.

Augustine was part of the early church. If you can't find his writings, I have them on my book shelf.

I have studied this matter extensively including going back throughout the history of the church. This is what the Council of Orange Canons of 529AD states plainly:

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).​

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.​

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).​

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).​

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).​

The Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD

These canons were changed 1,000 years later with the Council of Trent (1547AD):

On Justification​

Canon 2. If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.​

Canon 4. If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.​

Canon 5. If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema.​

​

Canon 17. If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.​

​

Department of English | Collaborative Academic Community

www.k-state.edu

The Council of Trent man cooperates with God through his free will. Does this sound the least bit familiar?

 

[Neogaia777]

I think you are confused. In each of your quoted Bible verses there is no indication that God has predestined us to heaven or hell. There is a difference between God knowing what we will do and God controlling what we do.

Here I will go repeating, or re-repeating myself again.

If anyone, of if any being, knows for 100% sure which way a thing is going to, or what you will choose, then the other possibility is always absolutely 0% always, and it cannot go any other way.

"With God all things are possible" means if we choose him we will be saved.

If you would have paid attention, those verses I quoted didn't have anything at all to do with predestination, but were about Jesus not knowing all of everything, etc.

And in this case, were about him not specifically knowing who or all or how many would be saved.

Also "But of that day and hour no one knows" does not mean that God predestined us to heaven or hell. What Jesus is referring to is that nobody knows when the day of judgment will be. Again, that does not indicate that God has predestined our judgment.

Again, those verses have nothing to do with predestination, but was about Jesus not knowing 100% of everything.

And in this case, not knowing the exact time of the specific day or hour of things

And God the Heavenly Father does already know all of these things, and knew/knows them all from the beginning, and scripture even says so, including what side of the judgement everyone in the end will all wind up being.

In fact it's the opposite.

No, it doesn't actually.

Why would there be a day of judgment if we have no choice whether to believe or not?

Judgement is not for Him, but is for us, and our knowing the good and/or bad of everything.

Again, I sa that you seem to put more faith n John Calvin than our Lord Jesus Christ. Is Calvin our savior or is Jesus. You must put your faith in the triune God and not place your faith in the hands of a man who wasn't even clergy but a lawyer.

Again, I have not at all studied anyone like John Calvin ever, and have no idea about what he believes.

Nothing you quoted gives any indication that we do not have the ability to freely choose God or not.

If you knew anything at all about 100% full omniscience from the beginning, then you would clearly see how that eliminates the possibility of choice or free will in all things.

You have been deceived and thus you are attempting to decide others.

No, I'm not, and haven't been actually.

But it is the rest of you who are doing that actually.

Stop it. Why go against the word of God to follow a 16th-century lawyer instead of those who sat at the feet of the savior and were taught the truth. Place your faith in the risen Chrst and not a slick talking lawyer.

Again, I don't know anything at all about John Calvin, or what he believes, but I came to these truths with the help of God, and Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit, in all of these things.

God Bless.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Augustine was part of the early church. If you can't find his writings, I have them on my book shelf.

I have studied this matter extensively including going back throughout the history of the church. This is what the Council of Orange Canons of 529AD states plainly:

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).​

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.​

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).​

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).​

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).​

The Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD

These canons were changed 1,000 years later with the Council of Trent (1547AD):

On Justification​

Canon 2. If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.​

Canon 4. If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.​

Canon 5. If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema.​

​

Canon 17. If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.​

​

Department of English | Collaborative Academic Community

www.k-state.edu

The Council of Trent man cooperates with God through his free will. Does this sound the least bit familiar?

No I was referring to his writing title retractiones (retractions). It’s very hard to find but he wrote it to retract a very long list of his errors.

 

[HarleyER]

And I understand your point of view, but Paul is establishing his credibility as an apostle of God to present to his audience that salvation is available to everyone through faith, not just to his chosen ethnicity. Although he was born a Jew, even that is not sufficient. There is no special person endowed with privilege, except for Christ. No one can claim elect status based on ethnicity or social status. The entry point is faith, which is our response to the measure of faith given to us by God. Yes, God is the source and initiator of our salvation, providing us with everything we need to respond to Him, but we still need to respond with an "Amen". And as His called-out ones, we each have a role to play in the grand scheme of things, but that is dependent on our response to the offer He has divinely arranged for us.

This passages is about Jesus, not Paul or Peter.
God knew of His plan of redemption for all of humanity, not just the special selection of people to be redeemed. He died for all, as many who would receive Him.


This is a messianic poetic Psalm of lament of Jesus crucifixion.

It can be broken down in the following manner.

Verse 1-2 (the cry), Verse 3-5 (confession of trust), verse 6-8(address to God ) 9-10 (acknowledgement of trust) 11 (request for help), verse 12-18(the problem), verse 19-21 (request for help), verse 22-31 (vow of praise)

In light of what Jesus endured this is an acknowledgment of trust in God as the One who knows Him and will deliver Him. Trust is a key word in the Psalm. Its about Jesus unwavering Trust in God regardless of His suffering, a model for us all.

I believe this as well, it is God's grace and his mercy, he is the source and initiator, but it is our responsibility to respond.

Notice the order in John 1:12,
God initiates extending the gift of salvation to all who would receive it. (As many as)
They respond by accepting the gift (received him)
They obtain new status (the right to become children of God).
As a result, they are born again, born from above.

As you said we are children of God, not because of our heritage, or by our human efforts alone, or because of a husband's decision. It is a divine work of God.

This gift is freely offered, unmerited, and unearned. Our role is to either accept or reject it. By receiving the gift, we acknowledge our need for salvation and trust in God's provision.



We agree on Gods Sovereignty, His grace and unmerited favour, where we appear to differ is in our understanding of God's desire to have humanity freely respond to this offer. I see God's sovereignty working through our human choice of accepting or rejecting Him. But I'm also fully aware that these discussions are complex.

Yes we should be thankful and praising God for our salvation, but we should also be interceding for Mary or Joe and also asking how we can be a practical part of their salvation journey. The disciples did so until they were told to shake the dust... have you been told to give up on Mary and Joe?

"...with everything we need to respond to Him, but we still need to respond with an "Amen"."

Would you agree that God must open the eyes and ears to hear the gospel? Do you think He does this for everyone?

"This is a messianic poetic Psalm of lament of Jesus crucifixion."

This was a very interesting point that required a bit of research. My commentaries are divided so I think this would have to be tossed. I could see it both ways.

"As you said we are children of God, not because of our heritage, or by our human efforts alone, or because of a husband's decision. It is a divine work of God."

Of a husband's decision? Well, I never stated that and I'm not sure where husband is inserted in the text. It says, "nor of the will of man". One can't will or choose to be a Christian. We must be Christ's sheep.

"This gift is freely offered, unmerited, and unearned. Our role is to either accept or reject it. "

So those who never hear the gospel, what about them? I'm not sure you addressed this.

"I see God's sovereignty working through our human choice of accepting or rejecting Him. But I'm also fully aware that these discussions are complex."

Yes, I think in one of my way back post I stated this is probably one of the most complex doctrine to understand. However, unlike you I see God's sovereignty working in spite of our human choices. Our human choices are evil. We do nothing good of ourselves.

"Yes we should be thankful and praising God for our salvation, but we should also be interceding for Mary or Joe"

I would agree. We have been commanded to do so. If we love Christ, we will be obedient to His commands. This sounds a bit self serving but His commands are for our benefit in helping us to become more like Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Augustine was part of the early church. If you can't find his writings, I have them on my book shelf.

I have studied this matter extensively including going back throughout the history of the church. This is what the Council of Orange Canons of 529AD states plainly:

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).​

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.​

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).​

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).​

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).​

The Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD

These canons were changed 1,000 years later with the Council of Trent (1547AD):

On Justification​

Canon 2. If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.​

Canon 4. If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.​

Canon 5. If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema.​

​

Canon 17. If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.​

​

Department of English | Collaborative Academic Community

www.k-state.edu

The Council of Trent man cooperates with God through his free will. Does this sound the least bit familiar?

Augustine is not someone I consider to be part of the early church. I consider the early church from the first two centuries because these were people who followed and were taught by the apostles and people who were taught by people who were taught by the apostles. These people had access to much more information than what we have in the entire Bible. They not only had access to the scriptures but they were able to ask questions about them. For example have 13 epistles from Paul. A follower of Paul could’ve easily heard more preaching in a week or two than what we have from his epistles so they had a better idea about how they were intended to be interpreted. Augustine didn’t have that advantage being born over 300 years later.

 

[HarleyER]

No I was referring to his writing title retractiones (retractions). It’s very hard to find but he wrote it to retract a very long list of his errors.

I don't think we have all of his works. His writings are not a "very long list of errors". Augustine was a pillar of the Western church and was held in high esteme along with his writings. It was Augustine coming to a logical understanding of God's sovereignty in relation to predestination that he realized God's working in our salvation. Christ says, "Come follow me." and Matthew gets up and leaves everything.

What free will is, is a repackaging of the Council of Trent's heresy. There is a history behind how this came into the Protestant churches that is beyond this scope.

 

[HarleyER]

Augustine is not someone I consider to be part of the early church. I consider the early church from the first two centuries because these were people who followed and were taught by the apostles and people who were taught by people who were taught by the apostles. These people had access to much more information than what we have in the entire Bible. They not only had access to the scriptures but they were able to ask questions about them. For example have 13 epistles from Paul. A follower of Paul could’ve easily heard more preaching in a week or two than what we have from his epistles so they had a better idea about how they were intended to be interpreted. Augustine didn’t have that advantage being born over 300 years later.

The writings of the first 200 years focus more on evangelism. There is very little doctrine in the early writing and what is there can be conflicting. Consequently, several council had to be formed to clear up the matters (like the Council of Nicea 325AD). I hope you don't reject that even if it wasn't formed until the 300s.

Actually, I believe you don't like Augustine's writings because they don't fit your paradigm.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The writings of the first 200 years focus more on evangelism. There is very little doctrine in the early writing and what is there can be conflicting. Consequently, several council had to be formed to clear up the matters (like the Council of Nicea 325AD). I hope you don't reject that even if it wasn't formed until the 300s.

Actually, I believe you don't like Augustine's writings because they don't fit your paradigm.

So what are your thoughts on his writing titled retractiones? It consists of two books of him retracting his earlier writings. He was 72 years old when he wrote it. He died at the age of 76. That’s why I don’t put much focus into his writings. You say you believe I don’t like his writings because they don’t fit my paradigm. I have a perfectly logical reason for not having much faith in his writings because apparently at the age of 72 he didn’t have much faith in his writings either.

 

[Mercy Shown]

That's because your analogies simply aren't true of a God like this.

For some reason evil temporarily was necessary, etc, and this God knew that from the very beginning or from before He ever even made anything, etc. I have my theories about those reasons, but will talk about that more later, or at another time, etc.

So it had to be made with evil in it or a part of it, etc, and so, that's the way He made it, etc. But He never steps in somewhere in-between and makes or causes evil to happen, etc. But He did see all the evil that would happen in it before He ever even made it, and made it that way anyway, etc. But this was at or from the beginning, and He does not step in somewhere in the middle or somewhere in-between and cause evil to happen, etc. But He just made it with evil in it, and saw every single thing (evil) that would all happen in all of it long before He ever even made it, and then set it in motion or made it all to happen that way anyway, etc.

And I'll tell you about what I think might be His reasons for doing this or making it this way or the "why" of this at another time, ok.

It was not just all simply for His "amusement", but is for a goal and purpose and aim much, much higher and greater, and ultimately much, much better than that, etc.

God Bless.

You can’t escape it.if a child is raped and murdered God either predestined it to happen or He didn’t. If He predestined it, He caused it for if He did not then who?

 

[Neogaia777]

You can’t escape it.if a child is raped and murdered God either predestined it to happen or He didn’t. If He predestined it, He caused it for if He did not then who?

God saw every single bad thing that would specifically happen from the beginning, and also the good, and made it so that it could not go or happen any other way, and after that, made it or did it or caused it to go/happen and/or go that way anyway.

You want to label this God evil because of this, then be my guest. But I wouldn't want to be you on judgement day when all of this is revealed to you, just exactly like I am saying.

I would be focusing much more on why He made it that way, etc.

And that to fulfill His purposes, why there was maybe no other way, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

And that to fulfill His purposes, why there was maybe no other way, etc.

And to just give you a clue into some of His purposes, and maybe some insight into some of why He made it this way, etc.

Some of those purposes include, but are not limited to, He wanted to develop/grow beings who could eventually be or become like Him, or that could become One with Him one day, etc. And also be where He is/always has been without ever choosing to do bad or evil ever again after that for all eternity after that one day, etc.

Could be that this was one of the only ways of doing that or making that happen maybe, etc.

Now of course, there's probably even more reasons than that probably, but I'm also not God, and don't know everything there is to know, or absolutely everything, etc.

But my point is that some of you should probably start thinking about it probably, etc.

Instead of thinking this God evil if there is right now no such thing as true free will right now probably, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

And to just give you a clue into some of His purposes, and maybe some insight into some of why He made it this way, etc.

Some of those purposes include, but are not limited to, He wanted to develop/grow beings who could eventually be or become like Him, or that could become One with Him one day, etc. And also be where He is/always has been without ever choosing to do bad or evil ever again after that for all eternity after that one day, etc.

Could be that this was one of the only ways of doing that or making that happen maybe, etc.

Now of course, there's probably even more reasons than that probably, but I'm also not God, and don't know everything there is to know, or absolutely everything, etc.

But my point is that some of you should probably start thinking about it probably, etc.

Instead of thinking this God evil if there is right now no such thing as true free will right now probably, etc.

God Bless.

I also don't think good people can be instantly created, but have to be "made", etc.

Which is why I think we have to have all the bad ones and this world of evil for a time temporarily probably, etc.

But the bad ones will never be getting to go or ever exist beyond just only more of this here probably, etc.

But the good ones had to be "made", etc.

Through firey trials, and much suffering and affliction by all the bad in the world and all the evil ones they had to be "made", etc.

And there was maybe no other way, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

The lump of rock doesn't know what is in it before it is put into the furnace, and nor does it choose to put itself into the furnace, and nor does it choose or know what it will come out as when it comes out of the furnace, but the one who carefully examined it before He put it in knows, and it is the same with us right now really. And beyond this analogy, God is the one who made the rock in this case, and the furnace, etc, so He definitely knows what is already in it, and what it will come out as, most definitely, etc.

For anyone who gets to go to Heaven after this, there is not one single bad thing they will go through, or evil that they will suffer, that they will not need the experience of one day, probably to both get into Heaven initially, and that they will probably also need again, when they are one day in Heaven again after that one day, etc.

Every bad thing every single child of God ever went through before getting into Heaven one day, will be a source of great strength for all of the rest of us forever and perpetually after that one day in Heaven after that one day, etc.

Not one single thing any child of God ever went through will ever be wasted when we are all standing there together in Heaven one day, etc. And it will no longer cause any of us any kind of pain, but will be a source of very great strength for all of us there once there in Heaven after that one day, etc.

It's just that, right now, it is very difficult for us to see just how these things could ever be one day, etc.

But, I also 100% believe God promises us all of this one day, etc. All of what I am right now saying, etc.

God Bless.