SALVATION

[Josheb]

In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

I do not think that "understanding" is quite correct but, no, I do not think the correct understanding has changed. However, a few terms need to be defined so that truth is correctly understood.

First off, we do not "become" righteous, and we do not "become righteous" in our own effort. We are made righteous in Christ, and Christ alone. The "Church" (capital "C") is the body of Christ, not a group of people citing in a man-made building on which the marquee out front says "Church." In the Bible the Church, the ecclesia, is always people, not buildings, and the people are always the saints, the bondservants of Christ, those who according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctifying work of the Spirit, obey Jesus Christ and been sprinkled with His blood. Every congregation has people in it who are not the ecclesia. Many congregations profess to be the Church but are not. The two should not be conflated.

I think every sentence in the opening post could be parsed out to better communicate what is salvation but I do not want to get mired in minutiae, hair-splitting, or what may prove to be disagreement over words where correct doctrine is shared. Simply put, we are saved by God and then, once saved, do we turn away from the world. Neither do we do good and overcome sin in our own might, especially not by the flesh.

Faith begets faithfulness.

If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Yes, I agree, but even this needs to be defined, qualified, and understood in a manner consistent with whole scripture. We are sinful because we sin and sin because we are sinful. Only on the other side of resurrection are we made incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:42). Until then we remain corruptible. We've been washed clean of past sins (2 Pet. 1:9). Part of the ongoing work of God in us is sanctification, or the ongoing work of cleaning us up. If we were made clean and never-dirtiable then sanctification would be unnecessary. Neither would practices such as confession, repentance, forgiveness, or reconciliation. There'd be no need to show mercy to any sibling in Christ because there'd be no occasion where any of these items is is to be applied. Grace, mercy, confession, repentance, forgiveness, reconciliation are all part of the normal, healthy Christian life. The epistolary makes it clear: the early Church was a mess.

Persistence in sin, especially the same sin ad nauseam, is evidence something is wrong and that thing that is wrong maybe a lack of genuine salvation.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

Not among the Church. Among many people claiming to be churches, yes, there are problems understanding, accepting, applying this understanding. I recently watched videos of a corporate denominational (I will leave the denomination unnamed) where the leaders began by introducing themselves by their pronouns (many of which do not reconcile with the individual's biology). Every such statement stood in silent but no less ironic contradiction to the introductions of those epistolary authors, who introduced themselves as bondservants of Christ. The history of the Church is such that churches divide, and divide over orthodoxy, with many believing what is not orthodox is orthodox. These divisions come in many forms, but they invariably manifest themselves in behaviors against which scripture clearly prohibits, if not in letter than in principle. Those divisions are the more apparent misunderstanding.

A more subtle form of misunderstanding occurs at the pedestrian level, and I would venture to say it can be witnessed in every Christian discussion forum. I'll use Galatians 5 to illustrate this, but I'd like the point ot be understood in principle, not letter, and without anyone feeling personally judged or attacked.


Galatians 5:16-21
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I've left out the rest of that passage where Paul wrote about the fruit of the Spirit on purpose because I want to attend to the problem to be solved. We all read that content about the works of the flesh and think, "Well I am not immoral, and I do not practice idolatry or sorcery," and may imagine we're doing well as far as righteousness, or turning from the world goes....... unawares of the more ordinary, routine, commonplace works of the flesh like anger and dissent. To have division is one thing, but to be divisive is another. Paul said it was good that divisions existed in the early Church because good doctrine was proved thereby. We saw the early seeds of denominationalism and sectarianism when some followed Jesus, some followed Apollos, and some followed Cephas. Thank God none claimed to follow Paul!

This last comment may seem like I have jumped topic, but I do so in an effort to keep the post brief. God works in the believer to will and to work His pleasure and purpose. Some mistakenly insert and "only" in there, as in "God's Spirit is the only thing working in me," or "God uses only the Spirit to change me," when the clear constantly repeated message of whole scripture is that God also uses others. The two, God's Spirit and God's people, are not mutually exclusive tools in God's hand. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another, and iron does not sharpen iron without friction. The epistolary is a lot about how that friction is to be handled.

Sadly, there are many claiming to be the Church that are only a church, and they do not hold the Bible to be authoritative and correct in all to which it speaks. It's a nice and very useful guideline, but it's old and need to be updated to better apply to modern realities .

 

[AbbaLove]

so 1 Co 6:11 is not necessarily the order of the works of salvation (justification--declaration of "not guilty"--being the result of salvation; i.e., sin forgiven).

IMO - You've been conned into believing that the sequence of 1 Corinthians 6:11 as well as Romans 8:30 with justification (not sanctification) preceding SALVATION and a glorified body is the wrong sequence. When you go down that path (questioning the Bible's validity) there is no end to how one chooses to interpret scripture to justified their own denominational theology.

 

[Clare73]

... of the Biblical sequence of Romans 8:30 and 1 Corinthians 6:11 ... NOT what is seen as today's prevalent seeker-sensitive theology
This is a good example of a seeker-sensitive sequence. It is not the Lord's sequence. Instead of rejecting the Lord's sequence (Romans 8:30 and 1 Corinthians 6:11 it would do you good to accept the Lord's sequence: Sanctification preceding Justification ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Possibly the greatest deception is that SALVATION precedes ... "justification --> obedience --> sanctification". This theology could be why some christians don't believe "good works" unto the Lord are necessary.

IMO - You've been conned into believing that the sequence of 1 Corinthians 6:11 as well as Romans 8:30 with justification (not sanctification) preceding SALVATION and a glorified body is the wrong sequence. When you go down that path (questioning the Bible's validity) there is no end to how one chooses to interpret scripture to justified their own denominational theology.

See post #179.

 

[AbbaLove]

Salvation results in a glorified body, because

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

Your sequence presupposes that SALVATION occurs before ... "-> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)"

Must be a new kind of Calvinism doctrine. Doubt even Calvin would be on board with such a seeker-sensitive ultra theology. And as for Paul he would be bewildered that 21st century Christianity has gone so far astray. Being so eager to build another MeGA church that tells the congregation what they like to hear instead of what they need to hear.

 

[Clare73]

Your sequence presupposes that SALVATION occurs before ... "-> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)"

Must be a new kind of Calvinism doctrine.

No, just the necessary conclusion in order to be in agreement with NT teaching, where
1) both salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and justification (Ro 3:28) are based on the same faith, and
2) there can be no justification (declaration of "not guilty") before there is forgiveness of sin (salvation).

 

[AbbaLove]

1) both salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and justification (Ro 3:28) are based on the same faith, and​

2) there can be no justification (declaration of "not guilty") before there is forgiveness of sin (salvation).

1) & 2) affirm with Paul that justification follows sanctification and not your seeker-sensitive sequence ...

Salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

Is it a sign of the end times when some Christians(?) can buy into the Seeker-Sensitive Movement to promote a false salvation (e.g. justification preceding sanctification) where SALVATION precedes " --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)". Then we wonder why so many nominal lukewarm christians.

It doesn't take much to convincie a seeker of their SALVATION when telling them what they prefer hearing (and that there really isn't a literal Hell excepr for satan and demons. One has to ask themself if the Seeker-Sensitive Movement is of God or a cunning deception by the enemy that has infiltrated postmodern (socalled "Christian") theology.

 

[Clare73]

1) & 2) affirm with Paul that justification follows sanctification and not your seeker-sensitive sequence ...
Salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

Is it a sign of the end times when some Christians(?) can buy into the Seeker-Sensitive Movement to promote a false salvation (e.g. justification preceding sanctification) where SALVATION precedes " --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)". Then we wonder why so many nominal lukewarm christians.
It doesn't take much to convincie a seeker of their SALVATION when telling them what they prefer hearing (and that there really isn't a literal Hell excepr for satan and demons. One has to ask themself if the Seeker-Sensitive Movement is of God or a cunning deception by the enemy that has infiltrated postmodern (socalled "Christian") theology.

See posts #179, #185.

 

[AbbaLove]

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

That's a seeker-sensitive sequence when Salvation takes place before ... "justification --> obedience --> sanctification" which is not scriptural UNLESS you are led to misinterpret the Lord's sequence. The seeker-sensitive postmodern theology with SALVATION preceding ... "justification --> obedience --> sanctification" ... results in too many nominal lukewarm [misled] seekers. Truly born again [mature in the Word] Christians compare today's 21st century American church(?) with the Laodicean [lukewarm] church in Revelation 3:14-22.

see and read: #182, #184, #186, #188 ..​

... so that you may accept Paul's inspired sequence (Romans 8:30, 1 Corinthians 6:11) as the Lord's sequence ... NOT a postmodern reformed theological sequence with SALVATION occurring before ... "justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

 

[Clare73]

That's a seeker-sensitive sequence when Salvation takes place before ... "justification

See post #187. . .evidently you do not understand "salvation."

 

[AbbaLove]

Salvation results in a glorified body, because

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

Your misunderstanding with salvation at the beginning is a popular denominational teaching that begins at infancy with the sprnnking of holy water on an infant signifying a born again salvation. Then years later some will begin to question church dogma and the belief of a Vicar for Christ. This deception undermines the Apostle Paul's sequence that is the Lord's sequence. NOT that of a so-called Vicar of Christ who his church believes can interpret scripture that furthers their teaching.

On the other hand truly born again followers of Christ Jesus believe the sequence written by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt. Thereby SALVATION evidence of Eternal Life only assured for those He justified. NOT the sequence of the Vicar of Christ who changes the sequence with salvation beginning at infant baptism with the sprinkling of holy water.

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

the same wording as your churches New American Bible Revised Edition (Saint Benedict Press, LLC) ...

[lndent]Romans 8:30 (NABRE)
And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 6:11 (NABRE)
That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.[/indent]

For all your see post #165, #169, etc you have yet to show even one scripture where "justification precedes sanctification" (because it doesn't). Your only defense is a denominational mndset so firmly established that change is very difficult or unlikely, but with God and God alone you can overcome

 

[Clare73]

Your misunderstanding with salvation at the beginning is a popular denominational teaching that begins at infancy with the sprnnking of holy water on an infant signifying a born again salvation. Then years later some will begin to question church dogma and the belief of a Vicar for Christ. This deception undermines the Apostle Paul's sequence that is the Lord's sequence. NOT that of a so-called Vicar of Christ who his church believes can interpret scripture that furthers their teaching.

See post #169.

On the other hand truly born again followers of Christ Jesus believe the sequence written by Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt. Thereby SALVATION evidence of Eternal Life only assured for those He justified. NOT the sequence of the Vicar of Christ who changes the sequence with salvation beginning at infant baptism with the sprinkling of holy water.

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

the same wording as your churches New American Bible Revised Edition (Saint Benedict Press, LLC) ...
[lndent]Romans 8:30 (NABRE)
And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

See post #179.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NABRE)
That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.[/indent]

For all your see post #165, #169, etc you have yet to show even one scripture where "justification precedes sanctification" (because it doesn't). Your only defense is a denominational mndset so firmly established that change is very difficult or unlikely, but with God and God alone you can overcome

See post #187.

 

[AbbaLove]

Paul's (and the Lord''s sequence) is correct with justification following sanctification....

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:10-11​

10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of Go​

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

You best adhere to the Lord's sequence instead of your sequence with justification preceding sanctification.
Read #190 again to see how religion can get in the way of our relationship with Him. ...

Salvation results in a glorified body,

Justification results in a glorified body (Romans 8:30), The same is true in 1 Corinthians 6:11 with snctification preceding justification.

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)

You still can't find even one scripture verse that validates your above sequence based on denominational theology. You arrange scripture verses to satisfy a theological sequence that is more pleasing to nominal (lukewarm) Christian.

It's your belief that Pau;'s sequence is wrong. When you go down that path it makes no sense to keep posting " see, see, see" when you see Paul's sequence as wrong. .

 

[Clare73]

Paul's (and the Lord''s sequence) is correct with justification following sanctification....

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

1 Corinthians 6:10-11​

10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of Go​

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

You best adhere to the Lord's sequence instead of your sequence with justification preceding sanctification.
Read #190 again to see how religion can get in the way of our relationship with Him. ...
Justification results in a glorified body (Romans 8:30), The same is true in 1 Corinthians 6:11 with snctification preceding justification.
You still can't find even one scripture verse that validates your above sequence

To repeat:

The gift (Ro 5:15),
the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),
the gift of God (Ro 5:16), that was unlike the result of one man's sin which brought condemnation for all,
the gift that followed many (sins) transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.

That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16).

 

[AbbaLove]

the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),
the gift that followed many (sins) transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.

That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16).

It's apparent that your salvation sequence is not aligned with Paul's but rather Calvin's ...

salvation --> justification --> obedience --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection (glorified body)​

Thought you believed that one's faith is what justifies resulting in one's Salvation? Do you also believe one's faith is a free gift? That would explain why you favor your sequence; while believing that Paul's following sequence is not your theology ...

1 Corinthians 6:11​

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Another indication of Calvin's theology is when you implied one's calling (Romans 8:30) is not relative to one's sanctification. Doing so again indicates that your theological sequence is based more on Calvinism than on Paul's sequence as inspired by the Holy Spirit ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, he also glorified.​

To continue our discourse further is no more than a debate on Calvinsim (Salvation sequence) versus Paul's Salvation sequence (Romans 8:30 and 1 Corinthians 6:11); which you believe is wrong favoring instead your seqence that is more aligned with Calvinsim.

 

[Clare73]

It's apparent that your salvation sequence is not aligned with Paul's

Paul claims no sequence in 1 Co 6:10-11, just as
he claims no completeness in Ro 8:30, where he omits both salvation and sanctification.
While what is clear is your denial of the word of God in:

The gift (Ro 5:15),
the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),
the gift of God (Ro 5:16), that was unlike the result of one man's sin which brought condemnation for all,
the gift that followed many (sins) transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.

That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16).

 

[AbbaLove]

To repeat:

The gift (Ro 5:15),
the gift that came by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ (Ro 5:15),
the gift of God (Ro 5:16), that was unlike the result of one man's sin which brought condemnation for all,
the gift that followed many (sins) transgressions (Ro 5:16) is the atonement of Christ; i.e., salvation; i.e., forgiveness of sin.

That gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:16).

Never disagreed/denied your above post. Posted it because to then ask if you believed faith is also a free gift? Then you edited your post removing "free"

Justification by faith is another way of saying we are not justified by our works. As Paul says in Romans 3:28, “we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law”

Do you believe that faith is a [free] gift?

 

[Clare73]

Never disagreed/denied your above post. Posted it because to then ask if you believed faith is also a free gift? Then you edited your post removing "free"

Justification by faith is another way of saying we are not justified by our works. As Paul says in Romans 3:28, “we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law”

Do you believe that faith is a [free] gift?

Absolutely!

Man does nothing to merit salvation (Eph 2:8-9). He simply receives it through the faith God the Holy Spirit has worked in his heart.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

I'd suggest that the claims are generally dishonest. Why?

There's a very slippery slope involved with trying to live a sinless life. Anyone undertaking such a quest should quickly find out that it's basically impossible OR they simply turn into blinded hypocrites.

Paul actually took an opposite track. The same track that the sinner in Luke 18 came to, that he very much needed the Mercy of God, because he was in fact a sinner, compared to the hypocrite that was not "like other men."

Paul directly refutes the religious hypocrite claims in such scriptures as Romans 3:9 where he states that "we are no better" because all are under sin, or even moreso for himself when he claimed to be the present tense "of sinners of whom I AM chief." 1 Tim. 1:15 Not was. Not used to be. "I am."

At least Paul was honest. And that is exactly a reward from heaven, a fruit of the spirit: Honesty

We do not want sin to be our master, for sure. But saying we're not sinners, that we don't have sin or that we're better than other sinners is simply lying hypocrisy and in those cases there is no dominion. Sin actually deceived such and won dominion over them. So much so that even the common unsaved person can see this lying hypocrisy from miles away, and with their own common sense intact, tend to not want to play that game

 

[Clare73]

In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God

Orthodox Jews who deny Jesus Christ do that.

In the NT, however, salvation is faith in (Eph 2:8-9) and trust on the (blood, Ro 3:25); i.e., the atoning work of Jesus Christ, for the remission of one's sin.

-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

It has among those who know NT teaching (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:25).

 

[AbbaLove]

Absolutely!

Man does nothing to merit salvation (Eph 2:8-9). He simply receives it through the faith God the Holy Spirit has worked in his heart.

Being you are not opposed to Reformed Faith will post what many Reformed Christians refer to as the "Golden Chain" order of Salvation that is based on Paul's order ...

Romans 8:28-30 is described as the “golden chain” of salvation because Paul not only speaks of an unbreakable order to the plan by which God saves us (the chain), but the
apostle is clear that our salvation from beginning to end is the work of a gracious and sovereign God, who having begun the process of our salvation, sees it through the end (glorification).

Paul lays out a similar “order” of salvation in 1 Corinthians 6:11, when the apostle writes, “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Although some of the particular elements appear in a different order than in Romans 8:30, the general idea is the same.

All the verbs (in Greek aorist tense) used here by Paul indicate that each of these elements is already a completed act. And just as in Romans 8:30, God accomplishes these things for us. His saving work on our behalf is already finished. All those in Christ are washed, are sanctified, are justified.


The term “Reformed,” spans more centuries than Calvin's time, encompassing other great theologians besides Calvin. Calvinism may be considered a subset of the Reformed tradition.

... the so called "Golden Chain" to a glorified body ...
​

Romans 8:30​

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

​

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)​

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.[/indent]​

​

​

One reason Paul's writings are called the Pauline epistles is because Paul is in line with God's order ​

At least Paul was honest. And that is exactly a reward from heaven, a fruit of the spirit: Honesty

​

God's blessings on you and your family,​

AbbaLove​