• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Daniel 7 Pre-advent, Investigated out of books, Judgment affirmed by Adventist

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The issue with the phrase is that it is not actually from scripture. Dan. 7:22 does not in any way say, "Judgment in favor of the saints". It says:
NASB - 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

ESV - 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.


Both are correct in the model Adventists are using since
1. Judgment is passed in favor of the saints during the Dan 7:9-10 judgment event and when that event completes Christ appears . The wicked are destroyed at His appearing as 2 Thess 1 points out.

2. At that point the 1000 years begins (it is the rapture event) - and as Rev 20 says the saints sit on thrones - in judgment of the lost. Rev 2 says the saints judge the lost "With a rod of iron" -- i.e. determining punishment for the wicked as per Luke 12. So that would mean "judgment is given over to the saints" - time for them to judge in the Rev 20:3-5 context.

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The word "given to" comes from the Hebrew יהבH3052 and it means to give to, yield over to. It is translated this way the entire time.
Except for NASB and ESV?
Total KJV Occurrences: 28
given, 16
Ezr_6:4, Ezr_6:8-9 (2), Ezr_7:19, Dan_2:23, Dan_2:37-38 (2), Dan_4:16, Dan_5:28, Dan_7:4, Dan_7:6, Dan_7:11, Dan_7:14, Dan_7:22, Dan_7:25, Dan_7:27
gave, 4
Ezr_5:12, Dan_2:48, Dan_5:18-19 (2)
give, 2
Dan_5:17, Dan_6:2
delivered, 1
...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but this is eisegesis.
You have ignored every detail in every verse in the chapters posted on this topic -- "as if" to say that paying attention to those scriptures is your version "of eisegesis".

That my friend is a form of the meaning of "eisegesis" unknown to all of mankind at this point.
If you accept that Jesus Christ is God
Which we do .. so then it is God the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) - giving us the key information in Rom 2, and in Dan 7 and in 2 Cor 5:10 and in Rev 20 and in Dan 7,8,9 ... you know... all the texts dealing with this judgment topic that you are not looking at.

Jesus points to judgment as future to His day - and also says that all judgment has been given over to time.
Paul points to judgment as future to his day in Rom 2:13-16. And says Jesus is the one doing it.
Dan 7 says that once the court room is setup for judgment - Jesus goes there and at some point after that - the judgment completes.
But all during that judgment - the saints are persecuted according to Dan 7.
, and accept that God is all-knowing
Indeed He is. None of those texts mentioned say "God engages in judgment because He does not yet know something"

hint: the open books in vs 9-10 of Dan 7 -
The court room with myriads of being in that court - in Dan 7
The Bible says that judgment is out of the things written in the books
All during the judgment event - the saints are being persecuted according to the chapter of Dan 7.
, then the idea of an “Investigative Judgement” makes zero sense.
If you carefully avoid all the texts we keep referencing -- then I suppose at a "certain distance" from scripture you could get there.
The idea looks like it was a pious belief of EGW
Well == If you carefully avoid all the texts we keep referencing -- then I suppose at a "certain distance" from scripture you could get there.

You have free will of course so you can ignore all the scriptures discussed on this thread and just complain about Ellen White ... if that is what you have to do to hold to the preferences that you have.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
At any rate, since Calvinists and Methodists and Orthodox can agree that God already knows who will be saved
So say we all ..the idea that all those judgment texts you are still ignoring - are there because God does not know something - is opposed to all of scripture. Have another go at it.

Perhaps this is why historically SDA churches usually lacked prominent crosses in their architecture
It appears you are still searching for something that will support your idea.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,457
791
Pacific NW, USA
✟163,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The issue with the phrase is that it is not actually from scripture. Dan. 7:22 does not in any way say, "Judgment in favor of the saints". It says:

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
A word for word translation is not needed in order to explain, properly, what is being said. The gist of the biblical statement is precisely what I stated, that God comes to render the judgment in favor of the saints so that they can inherit the Kingdom of God. An argument requiring only the word for word translation is nonsense. That is a non-explanation, expecting that there can be no explanation but the translation itself.
The word "given to" comes from the Hebrew יהבH3052 and it means to give to, yield over to. It is translated this way the entire time.
And "judgment" also means the same thing every time.
Dan. 7:22c refers to Rev. 20:4 where it directly copies from Dan. 7:22c

Rev. 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Yes, the Kingdom is being given to those who God ruled in favor of.
It refers to the period of the 1000 years that the saints enter into judgment in Heaven, looking at the books; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Psa. 149:1-9, just as the angels had done before the 1000 years, Dan. 7:9-10, in connection with God.
Actually not in my view. This refers to Christ's Coming to rule in favor of those who had been martyred. He comes to raise them from the dead, to vindicate those who the Antichrist had slandered.

The meaning is clear. Christ comes to rule in favor of all those who have embraced him as Savior and Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Tigger Boy

Active Member
Jun 12, 2023
180
9
77
Chapin, SC
✟37,758.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
"some" Identifiers in Dan 7 - details
1. Little horn - 11th horn
2. Uproots 3 of the initial 10 horns
3. Little horn may be recognized as tormenting saints for a 1260 year period of time
4. But torment of saints continues (in whatever form) -- until the court/judgment event completes
5. All the 4 beasts continue on PAST their time "An extension of life given them"
* nothing in Dan 7 says that the judgment must complete within the 1260. But the text is very clear that when it does complete all torment ends.
This is my understanding of your identifiers in Dan 7

3. Prophecy informs us that the Little horn will persecute the saints for 1260 years (538-1798) I would not use the words, "may be recognized as."

*Dan 7 informs us that the judgement will begin at the end of the 1260 years, which is 1798. (Dan. 7: 25,26) inform us, "the saints shall be given into his hand [Little horn] for a time, times, half a time (1260 literal years a day/yr. translation, because the Jubilee calendar is still operating) v 26, But the court [heavenly] shall be seated, [begin] and they shall take away his [Little horns] dominion [power over the saints of the previous 1260 years of the dark ages, in 1798 when the pope was dethroned]

Other than these two thoughts we are in agreement.




1. All 4 beasts of Dan 7 represented in part in the composite beast of Rev 13:1-2
2. The Rev 13 composite beast torments for the SAME 1260 period as in Dan 7 -
3. Composite Rev 13 beast specifically torments saints.
4. That composite beast is the first of TWO beasts that bring in the end-time scenario of the mark of the beast.
* Nothing in Rev 13 says the composite beast ends after 1260 years just that it is known as the one that specifically tormented saints for that period.
Based on the info above I understand that you are in full agreement with the following quote taken from our bible commentary on Rev. 13:5-7, pg. 818: "The specifications of Rev. 13:5-7 clearly identify the power symbolized by the beast with that represented by the little horn of the fourth beast of Dan. 7". If my assumption is correct then naturally the 42 months mentioned in the texts, you equate to be the 1260 literal years (538-1798) of Dan. 7.

Is this a accurate assumption on my part, yes or no?

Should you answer yes, it is not necessary for you to explain why, as I understand our (SDA) position.
However, should you answer no, then explain.
 
Upvote 0

Tigger Boy

Active Member
Jun 12, 2023
180
9
77
Chapin, SC
✟37,758.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Dan. 7:22 refers to Rev. 20:4 where it directly copies from Dan. 7:22c

Rev. 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It refers to the period of the 1000 years that the saints enter into judgment in Heaven, looking at the books; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Psa. 149:1-9, just as the angels had done before the 1000 years, Dan. 7:9-10, in connection with God.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
GG, I will ad a few insights to your post of which I am pretty much in agreement with. Please do not be offended, you of course can except them or reject them, the choice is always yours. First I believe in is in- appropriate to say that Dan. 7:22 refers to Rev. 20:4, because the book of Dan. was written centuries before the book of Rev., therefore Daniel could not have been referring to anything John wrote.

The word "judgement" can mean, "the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions," or "A decision of a court or Judge".

My understanding of Rev. (7: 21-22) I [Daniel] was watching and the same horn [11 horn, from the 4th beast] was making war against the saints [for the previous 1260 years during the "dark ages", 538-1798, see v. 25) and prevailing against them, until [up to the point of] the Ancient of Days [God the father] came and a judgement [decision to end the 11th horns war against the saints] in favor of the saints.... and the time came for the saints to possess the Kingdom. [after the return of Christ]

Rev. 20:4, states (NKJV) "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them..." This is as I understand it the millennial reign in which all the saints will be in heaven along with Christ, and they get to review the records of those saved and those lost, and be completely convinced that Jesus was fair in His pre-advent judgements of each of their loved ones, which was determined before His return. God the Father has planed this to prove that, Jesus was just and merciful, in all of His judgements, and all of the saints will agree, and never question why a loved one was not there.

I Cor. 6: 2,3, has to do with the sentencing portion of the judgement. Christ determines before He returns if individuals are saved or lost. However, the saints along with the guidance of Christ set in judgement, (the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions) in regard to the restitution that each sinner must pay for their unforgiven sins. The amount of restitution, or time in hell will be commensurate with their sins. I would add here that the saints at this time will not have fallen natures but unfallen natures.

Since this Judgement is the planning of the Father, and Jesus is a big part of it, what does it say to the love, and justice of God, but that He is certainly a God of LOVE!

Sharing these insights you can clearly see, I do not believe Dan. 7:22 refers to Rev. 20:4, for they are speaking of two different judgements, separated by millenniums.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
This is my understanding of your identifiers in Dan 7

3. Prophecy informs us that the Little horn will persecute the saints for 1260 years (538-1798)
true. Agreed.
I would not use the words, "may be recognized as."

*Dan 7 informs us that the judgement will begin at the end of the 1260 years, which is 1798.
It says the 1260 event precedes the judgment being completed. It is hard to tell if the judgment starts during the 1260 years, right at the end of it. or some time shortly after the 1260 year period ends.

It tells us that "judgment" is the solution to the persecuted-saints problem
(Dan. 7: 25,26) inform us, "the saints shall be given into his hand [Little horn] for a time, times, half a time (1260 literal years a day/yr. translation, because the Jubilee calendar is still operating) v 26,
Where do you see a reference to Jubilee calendar in Dan 7?
I find Dan 9 to lock down the day/yr principle with its start date -- then 483 years (69 weeks) then Mark 1 where we find "the time is fulfilled" for that prediction about the appearing of the Messiah in Dan 9.

But the court [heavenly] shall be seated, [begin] and they shall take away his [Little horns] dominion [power over the saints of the previous 1260 years of the dark ages, in 1798 when the pope was dethroned]
26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

It appears that the vs 26-27 event is the end of the age, appearing of Christ, rapture of the saints in 1 Thess 4:13-18, destruction of the wicked 2 Thess 1. I.E the dominion of Christ's kingdom - full restraint on sin , sinners, the wicked.

Based on the info above I understand that you are in full agreement with the following quote taken from our bible commentary on Rev. 13:5-7, pg. 818: "The specifications of Rev. 13:5-7 clearly identify the power symbolized by the beast with that represented by the little horn of the fourth beast of Dan. 7".
agreed.
If my assumption is correct then naturally the 42 months mentioned in the texts, you equate to be the 1260 literal years (538-1798) of Dan. 7.

Is this a accurate assumption on my part, yes or no?
yes
Should you answer yes, it is not necessary for you to explain why, as I understand our (SDA) position.
However, should you answer no, then explain.
You are correct to say that I am outlining the SDA understanding of Dan 7. I believe that is the best explanation of the chapter.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Actually not in my view. This refers to Christ's Coming to rule in favor of those who had been martyred. He comes to raise them from the dead, to vindicate those who the Antichrist had slandered.

The meaning is clear. Christ comes to rule in favor of all those who have embraced him as Savior and Lord.

I agree with a lot of that - but in John 14:1-3 Jesus is coming to take us "to His Father's house" -
"Our Father who is in heaven" Matt 6.

At that coming - 2 Thess 1 happens --- the destruction of all the lost according to that chapter.

At that appearing of Christ - the saints are gathered up and taken to heaven as per 1 Thess 4:13-18, 2 Thess 2:1-4, Matt 24:29-31, John 14:1-3

Matt 5 "The saints inherit the kingdom of heaven"

But at the end of the literal 1000 years of Rev 20 - it all comes here to Earth.
 
Upvote 0

GentleGospeller

Active Member
Jul 31, 2024
121
35
Sacramento
✟1,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
First I believe in is in- appropriate to say that Dan. 7:22 refers to Rev. 20:4,
The statement means it refers to the same events described. Dan. 7:22c refers to the same event as Rev. 20:4 does. I did not mean that Daniel was referring to Revelation as a text.
 
Upvote 0

GentleGospeller

Active Member
Jul 31, 2024
121
35
Sacramento
✟1,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
... The word "judgement" can mean, "the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions," or "A decision of a court or Judge". ...
This was why I did not point out the word for judgment, but the word for "given to". It does not refer to a rendered decision, but refers to passing judgment into the hands of someone else. A giving over to, just as Rev. 20 also says, "given unto". Just as the Father gave all judgment into the hands of the Son (Jesus), He passes also that judgment into the hands of the saints.
 
Upvote 0

GentleGospeller

Active Member
Jul 31, 2024
121
35
Sacramento
✟1,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
The timing of Daniel 7:22 is in 4 parts.

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
[1] Until, refers to the previous text, 1,260 (AD 538-AD 1798)​
[2] the Ancient of Days came, refers to ending of the 1,335, 2,300, 50th year Jubile and 5 months and beginnig of the hour, day, month and year; in the timing of the antitypical day of atonement, see Dan. 7:13; Rev. 3:7-8, &c (AD 1844 unto close of probation and Second Advent)​
[3] and judgment was given to the saints of the most high, refers to 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Psa. 149:1-9; Rev. 20:4, Isa. 24; &c. (the 1000 years), when the saints look over the records in Heaven to Amen God's decisions, just as the angels had before them before the 1000 years (Dan. 7:9-10)​
[4] the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, (after the 1000 years).​
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,457
791
Pacific NW, USA
✟163,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I agree with a lot of that - but in John 14:1-3 Jesus is coming to take us "to His Father's house" -
"Our Father who is in heaven" Matt 6.

At that coming - 2 Thess 1 happens --- the destruction of all the lost according to that chapter.

At that appearing of Christ - the saints are gathered up and taken to heaven as per 1 Thess 4:13-18, 2 Thess 2:1-4, Matt 24:29-31, John 14:1-3

Matt 5 "The saints inherit the kingdom of heaven"

But at the end of the literal 1000 years of Rev 20 - it all comes here to Earth.
I'm not sure where our differences lie? It sounds like we agree on all this?
 
Upvote 0

Tigger Boy

Active Member
Jun 12, 2023
180
9
77
Chapin, SC
✟37,758.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You are correct to say that I am outlining the SDA understanding of Dan 7. I believe that is the best explanation of the chapter.
Based on the info above I understand that you are in full agreement with the following quote taken from our bible commentary on Rev. 13:5-7, pg. 818: "The specifications of Rev. 13:5-7 clearly identify the power symbolized by the beast with that represented by the little horn of the fourth beast of Dan. 7".
agreed.

Bob, now that I clearly understand what you believe in regard to Dan. 7, and the first beast of Rev., 13. I would like for you to consider my understanding of the first beast of Rev. 13., since we both as Adventist agree that the little horn of Dan 7, is the papacy, which waged war against the saints and defeated then during the 1260 years of the dark ages. (538-1798)

In the two posts following this I will share the primary details of the battle between Jesus and Satin in Rev. 12:1-6, followed by Rev. 12:7-14:5, which is overlooked by most. In order to understand these prophecies correctly we must understand each event in their proper sequence. I believe I have shared with you in a previous post what makes the apocalyptic prophecies of Dan., and Rev., unique, in that each one has a beginning and ending point in time and that each event within that prophecy is given by God in its chronological order. You did not think favorably on this, so in the this post and the next two I would like too demonstrate just how important this "natural law" that God built into apocalyptic prophecy is in order to understand God's intended meaning.

This “natural law” can be observed in all fulfilled prophecies to date, thus it has to be true of unfulfilled prophecies as well. Most students today as well as former expositors of centuries past were not aware of this law until God, according to His timing made it know in the mid 1980’s.

For that reason most students of apocalyptic prophecy think that all the prophecies are divided by chapter divisions, some yes, but not all. In the original transcripts there were no chapter, verse, or sentence delineation. It was first added in the KJ for reference purposes. Certainly a huge blessing. But keep in mind these translators were not inspired, nor did they understand this, “natural law”. Of course they were very careful and did the best they could with the knowledge they had at that time. But truth in all fields of study is progressive, and those who are willing to move with it remain on the cutting edge while those who don’t are left in darkness.

With this said, then how does one distinguish between the different prophecies. I will demonstrate this “natural law” as we consider (Re. 12:1-6 and 12:7-14:5). First consider (Rev. 12:1-6), note the events, vss. 1&2 describe a woman (God’s church) about to give birth to Christ. Vss. 3&4 describe a red dragon/satin stands before the woman to devour the child. V5 the Child/Christ returns to heaven. Vs 6, the woman fled into the wilderness a place prepared by God, for 1260 days, which must be translated as literal years (538-1798) as the Jubilee cycles are still in operation.

With this prophecy it actually does start at the beginning of the chapter, but not all do. So beginning with (Rev. 12:1-6) note that as each event is listed they are moving forward in chronological order. However, in vss. 7-9 this event describes the war in heaven in which Satin and his angles are cast to the earth. Certainly this event has stoped the forward progression which was evident in vss 1-6, but rather is going back in time and speaking of an earlier event. It is here at vs 12:7 that a new prophecy begins with many events listed in their chronological order moving through chapter 13, to Rev. 14:5. Again each event within this prophecy is moving forward in time until again we reach the event in 14:6 which begins the three angles messages. We know that the three angles messages are given before the 144,000 are presented to Jesus in heaven as the first fruits of the tribulation harvest, so another prophecy begins here and continues to (Rev. 15:6) Note here in these last two prophecies that neither started or ended with chapter delineation.

Too, one can confirm this “natural law” by observing the chronological order given in Dan, 2:29-45; 7:1-12; 8:1-12; and 9:20-27. These are just four of seventeen prophecies found in Dan., and Rev. Once this “natural law” is understood students of apocalyptic prophecy can better understand a private interpretation (those not conforming to "natural laws") and those based on valid, "natural laws."

Bob please consider not responding to these specific post until you consider the other two which I will post in the next couple of days or so. Ask the Holy Spirit for a humble spirit and discernment during this time, let what I share sink in before you respond, I think in this way our correspondence on these specific post would be less confusing. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Actually not in my view. This refers to Christ's Coming to rule in favor of those who had been martyred. He comes to raise them from the dead, to vindicate those who the Antichrist had slandered.

The meaning is clear. Christ comes to rule in favor of all those who have embraced him as Savior and Lord.

I agree with a lot of that - but in John 14:1-3 Jesus is coming to take us "to His Father's house" -
"Our Father who is in heaven" Matt 6.

At that coming - 2 Thess 1 happens --- the destruction of all the lost according to that chapter.

At that appearing of Christ - the saints are gathered up and taken to heaven as per 1 Thess 4:13-18, 2 Thess 2:1-4, Matt 24:29-31, John 14:1-3

Matt 5 "The saints inherit the kingdom of heaven"

But at the end of the literal 1000 years of Rev 20 - it all comes here to Earth.
I'm not sure where our differences lie? It sounds like we agree on all this?
IT is possible that we do agree on all of it. My comments were about the millennial kingdom -- but that is off topic on my part - I should not have brought it up on this thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RandyPNW
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The timing of Daniel 7:22 is in 4 parts.

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
[1] Until, refers to the previous text, 1,260 (AD 538-AD 1798)​
[2] the Ancient of Days came, refers to ending of the 1,335, 2,300, 50th year Jubile and 5 months and beginnig of the hour, day, month and year; in the timing of the antitypical day of atonement, see Dan. 7:13; Rev. 3:7-8, &c (AD 1844 unto close of probation and Second Advent)​
[3] and judgment was given to the saints of the most high, refers to 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Psa. 149:1-9; Rev. 20:4, Isa. 24; &c. (the 1000 years), when the saints look over the records in Heaven to Amen God's decisions, just as the angels had before them before the 1000 years (Dan. 7:9-10)​
[4] the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, (after the 1000 years).​
In 2 Peter 3 "The day of the Lord" spans 1000 years. It starts with "His coming" according that chapter.
Dan 7 appears to use the same idea where Christ takes over and the saints rule when judgment in heaven ends - passed in favor of the saints as NASB renders the idea.

Dan 7:
26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

It appears that the vs 26-27 event is the end of the age, appearing of Christ, rapture of the saints in 1 Thess 4:13-18,
destruction of the wicked 2 Thess 1. (See also Rev 19 ending with "The rest were destroyed..."
I.E the start of the dominion of Christ's kingdom - full restraint on sin , sinners, the wicked happens at Christ's appearing.

The fact that 2 Peter 3 puts that into a 1000 year "day" starting with the appearing of Christ/Rapture and ending with the lake of fire events of Rev 20 where "the elements melt with fervent heat" - found in Rev 20, and followed by the New Earth of Rev 21 -- appears to fit the very short summation of all of that at the end of Dan 7.
 
Upvote 0

Tigger Boy

Active Member
Jun 12, 2023
180
9
77
Chapin, SC
✟37,758.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The timing of Daniel 7:22 is in 4 parts.
GG, you are making this more complicated then it really is.
[1] Until, refers to the previous text, 1,260 (AD 538-AD 1798)
Dan. 7:21,22 In the KJV, NKJV and the NIV, read: ."..and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against then, 22) until the Ancient of days came,..." It is very clear in these translations that the word "until" is connected to the the Ancient of days, not the 1260 years, but rather the heavenly event Daniel has previously mentioned in vss 9 &10, in which the judgement [pre-advent] was set [meaning ready to conduct business, at that very point in time, at the end of the 1260 years (538-1798) of which the 11 horn had been been waging war against the saints.
[2] the Ancient of Days came, refers to ending of the 1,335, 2,300, 50th year Jubile and 5 months and beginnig of the hour, day, month and year; in the timing of the antitypical day of atonement, see Dan. 7:13; Rev. 3:7-8, &c (AD 1844 unto close of probation and Second Advent)
I have no idea what point you are trying to make with all of these numbers and texts.
[3] and judgment was given to the saints of the most high, refers to 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Psa. 149:1-9; Rev. 20:4, Isa. 24; &c. (the 1000 years), when the saints look over the records in Heaven to Amen God's decisions, just as the angels had before them before the 1000 years (Dan. 7:9-10)
As I have explained earlier, I agree with most of your thoughts here, but to apply them within the contexts of Daniel 7, makes no sense. Daniel saw a heavenly court event taking place at the end of the 1260 years of
papal persecution. I am confident base on information gathered from other prophecies that this is the start of the pre-advent judgement, not the sentencing part of the judgement which the saints will conduct in heaven during the 1,000 years.

Daniel 7, is laying out events that are in chronological order, this is only unique to apocalyptic prophecy. We can trust the chronology because God is the author of these prophecy. In this prophecy we are informed of four kingdoms that would arise, of which history concurs. Too, out of the forth/Rome would come ten horns/tribal nations and another horn/Papal Rome, would subdue three. As John was shown in vision this horn/papacy would wage war against the saints and defeated them, (which history confirms) until John sees God the Father convening a court room event in heaven, and using our vernacular of today, He issued a restraining order against the horn power, in favor of the saints,(which we couldn't see) and the war end, and the reformation was able to move forward with less opposition.(which is a historical fact)

The point here again I'm trying to empress on you is the timing of this heavenly court event according to chronology is at the end of the 1260 years (538-1798) not during the millennial reign.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Dan. 7:21,22 In the KJV, NKJV and the NIV, read: ."..and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against then, 22) until the Ancient of days came,..." It is very clear in these translations that the word "until" is connected to the the Ancient of days, not the 1260 years,
Agreed - notice that it says -

Dan 7: 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came
and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One,
and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

In the re-telling / summary of the same sequence in the same chapter we have this --
Dan 7: 25 ... and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom​
The thing that cuts off the work of persecution of the saints the completion of the judgment which marks the point of Christ's appearing, the saints delivered and put into a ruling/judgment mode over the wicked (to then rule with a "rod of iron" according to Rev 2:26-27 - i.e. meeting out judgment - as we see Christ do in Rev 19 when He "rules them with a rod of iron" Rev 19:15. A term for meeting out judgment.

The result is that we still have saints being persecuted to this very day - even though the 1260 year period of persecution in the dark ages - has ended long ago. So then that Dan 7:9-10 judgment process is still in progress.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GentleGospeller

Active Member
Jul 31, 2024
121
35
Sacramento
✟1,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
The 1000 years does not begin at Christ's coming. It begins at the close of probation, (Christ throws down the censer) and for the saints still alive during that time, it starts on earth.

How can this be known? Simple. A day in scripture starts at "even" (sunset). Christ Jesus is the sun of righteousness who appears in the east at His coming. Before Jesus is even seen, light is seen through his people, as the dawn of a day is seen even before the sunrises.

Evening is the dark (night portion) of the day, and comes before the sunrising. There is no night in heaven, New Jerusalem, and is everlasting day there by the Glory of God.

[1] 1000 years begins with the evening, night on earth (close of probation)
[2] 1000 years continues when Christ the sun of righteousness appears and takes the saints back to Heaven (day portion)
[3] 1000 years ends (concludes) when Christ Jesus and saints come back to earth (darkness, night time, even for the close of the world, end of wicked)
 
Upvote 0

Tigger Boy

Active Member
Jun 12, 2023
180
9
77
Chapin, SC
✟37,758.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The result is that we still have saints being persecuted to this very day - even though the 1260 year period of persecution in the dark ages - has ended long ago. So then that Dan 7:9-10 judgment process is still in progress.
Yes, most likely there are saints being persecuted yet today, and for sure will be during the tribulation. However, within the contexts of Dan. 7, it is referring to the specific saints of which the papacy had been waging war against the previous 1260 years. Yes, I believe the pre-advent judgement of Dan 7:9-10 is still on going today.

Jesus was given sovereign power by the Father in that court room event, vs. 14, any thoughts on that?
 
Upvote 0

GentleGospeller

Active Member
Jul 31, 2024
121
35
Sacramento
✟1,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Daniel 7 is built in a specific order:

Dan. 7:1-14 - Visions (Daniel)
Dan. 7:15-18 - Summary of the entire visions (Gabriel)
Dan. 7:19-22 - Inquiry of Visions (Daniel)
Dan. 7:23-28 - Explanation of Visions more details (Gabriel)

This pattern is unbreakable, and matches all other vision prophecies, with visions preceeding explanation. See Dan. 8 or Rev. 17 for examples.

Dan. 7:17 parallels Dan. 7:1-8, & Dan. 7:19-21, & Dan. 7:23-25.

Dan. 7:1-8 (kingdoms) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:17 (kingdoms summary) (Gabriel)
Dan. 7:19-21 (kingdoms inquiry) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:23-25 (kingdoms detail) (Gabriel)

Dan. 7:1-8 (earthly kingdoms arise) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:9-10 (Day atonement, investigation of judgment, Judgment set) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:13 (Jesus moves from holy place to most holy place, day of atonement ministry) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:17 (takes place during the kingdoms active) (Gabriel)
Dan. 7:22b (Ancient of Days, God the Father, moves from holy to most holy in Heaven) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:26 (Judgment sit) (Gabriel)

Dan. 7:11a is the time at the end where the antichrist still lives during the period of investigative judgment (Dan. 7:9-10)
Dan. 7:11b is the second coming of Jesus, with flaming fire taking vengeance, see Isa. 24; Rev. 20, at the near start of the 1000 years
Dan. 7:12 is the 1000 years, where the kingdoms of earth are removed, and the wicked are slain, and sleep in the earth until after the 1000 years, see Isa. 24; Rev. 20; &c.

Dan. 7:7 division of 4th kingdom (AD 476; Rome, onward)
Dan. 7:17 division takes place during 4th kingdom
Dan. 7:19-20a division of 4th kingdom
Dan. 7:23-24a division of 4th klingdom

Dan. 7:11 blasphemy words, little horn
Dan. 7:17 part of the kingdoms
Dan. 7:20-21 same blasphemy, little horn
Dan. 7:24-25 blasphemy words, little horn

Dan. 7:8 war with saints takes place during the iron teeth Kingdom
Dan. 7:17 war with saints takes place during the Iron teeth kingdom
Dan. 7:21 war with saints, 1260
Dan. 7:25 war with saints, 1260

Dan. 7:14 Kingdom come
Dan. 7:17 kingdom come
Dan. 7:22d kingdom come
Dan. 7:27-28 kingdom come

Dan. 7:22 follows, Dan. 7:21 (1,260 day/years) (AD 538-AD 1798)

Dan. 7:22 is not a single period of time, but multiple.

Dan. 7:22a, "until" refers back to Dan. 7:21, war with the saints, prevailing "until" God the Father moves places in Heaven, a reference back to Dan. 7:9-10. So the "until" is the ending period of the previous verse, vs 21, the 1,260 (AD 538-AD1798). See also Dan. 8:13-14,26, 11:31-40, 12:7,11-12 (1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 2,300).

Dan. 7:22b, "the Ancient of Days" (Person/Being of the Father) "came" (moved places in Heaven, see Dan. 7:9-10), after the period of 1,260. See Dan. 8:13-14,26, 11:40, 12:7,11-12. Judgment is set in Heaven with angels going over books, not humans but they look at human records, see Dan. 12:1.

Dan. 7:22c, comes after the period of judgment by the Ancient of Days and angels, Dan. 12:1, when the saints (humans) have the judgment "given to, given unto" them in Heaven (Rev. 20:4; Psa. 149:1-9) This is during the time when the kingdoms of earth had been taken away, and yet their lives were prolonged in sleep of death for 1000 years, Dan. 7:12.

Dan. 7:22d is the "time" after the 1000 years, when the wicked are finally destroyed and the saints "possess" the Kingdom on earth as promised by God.

There is nothing in Dan. 7:22 that says judgment is given in favor of the saints. It is a private interpretation, a private translation. There is no Hebrew 'authority' for it. There is no Greek authority (Origen's Hexapla) for it (εδωκενG1325, V-AAI-3S, a verb meaning committed to, given to, &c; ie Judgment is given or committed to/into the hands of the saints). There is not even a verse in the Bible which says given in favor of the saints. The parallel in Rev. 20, Isa. 24 and elsewhere teach that the Judgment is passed from the hands of God the Father and the angels about the saints, into the hands of Jesus and his body (mankind) saints; 1 Cor. 6:2-3, &c. during the 1000 years in heaven above. To teach otherwise destroys the lesson God desires to teach about the church in judgment. I have told you the truth. I have given the evidence. I now leave it with you.
 
Upvote 0