Daniel 7 Pre-advent, Investigated out of books, Judgment affirmed by Adventist

[The Liturgist]

In Dan 9 - we all agree that the apocalyptic text uses day for a year interpretation of the 490 days, 70 weeks

No. I disagree with that. We don’t know the meaning of the numbers in Daniel or their exact signifigance. The Early Church never to my knowledge reached a consensus on it, and no prophetic or chilaistic projection has come up with a consistent timeframe derived from Daniel (and what is more Chiliasm was meant to be excluded by the Nicene Creed, which declares of our Lord “His Kingdom shall have no end.” That we have at present we have Chiliasts who agree with the Nicene Creed is an interesting anachronism since it was the intent of the Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Synod to exclude the possibility of that belief. But perhaps the modern Chiliasts project our Lord having two Kingdoms or otherwise deal with the contradiction, which was not the belief of the early Chiliasts. Perhaps our most knowledgeable and learned friend @ViaCrucis might be able to reconcile the two positions.

 

[The Liturgist]

show me the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis that agreed with Christ that the Messiah would be put to death.

What does that have to do with anything? Aside from the fact that none exist - Judaism does not believe the Messiah would be put to death, and indeed they argue from the crucifixion of our Lord that He was not the Christ, based on their misinterpretation of their own prophetic texts (which is why the fact that one or more Jewish Rabbis regard Yom Kippur as the Day of Judgement is completely irrelevant, since Yom Kippur is not a Christian observance and Christ has atoned for our sins).

 

[BobRyan]

Show me one Orthodox Church Father who agrees with the particular Jewish Rabbis

show me the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis that agreed with Christ that the Messiah would be put to death.

What does that have to do with anything?

That's the one true nation church started by God at Sinai - making some pretty big mistakes.

Aside from the fact that none exist - Judaism does not believe the Messiah would be put to death, and indeed they argue from the crucifixion of our Lord that He was not the Christ,

Yep. Being the one true nation church started by God at Sinai - and having a system of successor-priests established by God at Sinai - did not make them infallible.

based on their misinterpretation of their own prophetic texts

yep - they got the Bible wrong in a number of places - yet in John 4 Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know -- salvation is OF THE JEWS"

(which is why the fact that one or more Jewish Rabbis regard Yom Kippur as the Day of Judgement is completely irrelevant, since Yom Kippur is not a Christian observance and Christ has atoned for our sins).

Christ's atoning sacrifice was completed in full at the cross - but the judgment aspect of the Day of Atonement still continues and as Dan 7 points out WILL CONTINUE until all is completed which ends all persecution of the saints - which everyone agrees is still happening today. This is irrefutable when it comes to seeing saints still persecuted. Not even a question.

 

[BobRyan]

1. I did not write Dan 7, Rom 2:4-16, Rev 14:6-7 - posting that it "makes zero sense" is not helping your argument.
2. Job 1 and 2 show another kind of Dan 7 group court setting where something is determined based on what the saint (Job) does in real life. No matter that God already knew it all ahead of time. The point remains.

She did not write those chapters in the Bible as it turns out. Read the first 4 posts on this thread if you want to address the details of it.

1. Dan 7 points to judgment in heaven where judgment is "passed in favor of the saints " Dan 7:22
2. Dan 7 shows us that this judgment did not start until after Roman empire split into 10, and then the 11th great entity came out of it. Which is long after the days of Christ.
3. Rom 2:16 speaks of the future "day when according to my Gospel - God WILL judge"
4. Dan 7 tells us that saints are persecuted on Earth the entire time that judgment takes place.
5. Rev 14:6-7 shows us that the judgment hour begins at some future point when the predicted timeline (of Dan 8) as been accomplished. "The hour of His judgment has come" vs 7, in the same way that Mark 1:14-5 "the time is fulfilled" shows the 69weeks of Dan 9 pointing to the coming of the MEssiah - had fully elapsed.

Dan 8 parallels Dan 7.

In both chapters - the little horn persecutes the saints.
IN both chapters the focus is on events that take place after the rise of a great empire - greater than Persia and Greece
in both chapters the saints are persecuted until the solving event - concludes

In Dan 7 that solution is called "judgment" --- the court sits the books are opened.
In Dan 8 that solution is called "the sanctuary cleansed"

The cleansing of the sanctuary in the ceremonial system is "Day of Atonement" in Lev 23 and Lev 16 - it is recognized as the great day of judgment in which the fate of all mankind is sealed.

In Dan 9 - we all agree that the apocalyptic text uses day for a year interpretation of the 490 days, 70 weeks. Same rule is used in Dan 7 and 8.

No. I disagree with that. We don’t know the meaning of the numbers in Daniel or their exact signifigance.

some don't ... but agreat many denominations do get the point of Dan 9 pointing to the start of Messiah's ministry and so did the Jews in Christ's day. As noted above "the time is fulfilled" message of Christ at the start of His ministry in Mark 1:14-15 points directly at the Dan 9 prediction.

This is irrefutable and it means that the day for year explanation for Dan 9 is confirmed by Christ Himself. Details matter.

 

[The Liturgist]

yep - the got the Bible wrong in a number of places - yet in John 4 Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know -- salvation is OF THE JEWS"

That refers to the fact that Jesus Christ was born from the Jews, and the Samaritans, a schismatic Hebraic faction (which according to their own account consist of members of the tribes of Ephraim and Manessah, as well as Levites and Kohanim, but the Jewish Rabinnical tradition is they were Assyrian converts to a form of Judaism, but I find this unlikely, particularly since the Samaritan history makes sense given the loss of contact with the Northern Kingdom, which inhabited a region called Samaria, and which included those two tribes), had a modified version of the Torah, which we have, which inserts an extra commandment concerning Mount Gerizim and which lacks the Prophetic books like Isaiah etc.

But the misinterpretations made by the Samaritans, and also the Sadducees and Pharisees, show that it is possible to misinterpret the Bible in good faith, which is why you shouldn’t accuse me of disregarding or denying Scripture, when I merely disagree with your interpretation of it.

Maybe the Orthodox Church is wrong along with all the Greek Fathers of the early church who our faith is based upon, and perhaps the Adventists have a more accurate interpretation, but the fact is we accept as protocanonical all the books of the Old Testament and base our teaching on their doctrine and the doctrine of the New Testament.

So don’t accuse me of disagreeing with books of the Bible, when I do not. I simply disagree with interpretations of them and in some cases where you believe you know what they mean, I say that I don’t know what they mean and don’t expect to know until the Eschaton.

This is particularly the case with any texts that could be used in an attempt to calculate the expected return date of Christ our True God, for the simple reason that God Incarnate declared this to be unknowable by humans, and George Miller inadvertently caused the Great Disappointment by attempting to calculate a date from it, and getting 1844, which was unfortunately for him in the immediate future, and naturally this led to some disillusionment and confusion. My view is that George Miller should not have even attempted to do that based on what Christ our True God said, that the date of His return is known only to the Father, and that humans cannot know the time of His return. And this view is also held by most denominations.

some don't ... but agreat many denominations do get the point

Which ones? I am genuinely curious.

 

[BobRyan]

Being the one true nation church started by God at Sinai - and having a system of successor-priests established by God at Sinai - did not make them infallible.

based on their misinterpretation of their own prophetic texts

yep - they got the Bible wrong in a number of places - yet in John 4 Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know -- salvation is OF THE JEWS"

(which is why the fact that one or more Jewish Rabbis regard Yom Kippur as the Day of Judgement is completely irrelevant, since Yom Kippur is not a Christian observance and Christ has atoned for our sins).

Christ's atoning sacrifice was completed in full at the cross - but the judgment aspect of the Day of Atonement still continues and as Dan 7 points out WILL CONTINUE until all is completed which ends all persecution of the saints - which everyone agrees is still happening today. This is irrefutable when it comes to seeing saints still persecuted. Not even a question.

That refers to the fact that Jesus Christ was born from the Jews, and the Samaritans, a schismatic Hebraic faction (which according to their own account consist of members of the tribes of Ephraim and Manessah, as well as Levites and Kohanim, but the Jewish Rabinnical tradition is they were Assyrian converts to a form of Judaism, but I find this unlikely, particularly since the Samaritan history makes sense given the loss of contact with the Northern Kingdom, which inhabited a region called Samaria, and which included those two tribes), had a modified version of the Torah, which we have, which inserts an extra commandment concerning Mount Gerizim and which lacks the Prophetic books like Isaiah etc.

But the misinterpretations made by the Samaritans, and also the Sadducees and Pharisees, show that it is possible to misinterpret the Bible in good faith, which is why you shouldn’t accuse me of disregarding or denying Scripture, when I merely disagree with your interpretation of it.

Maybe the Orthodox Church is wrong along with all the Greek Fathers of the early church who our faith is based upon, and perhaps the Adventists have a more accurate interpretation, but the fact is we accept as protocanonical all the books of the Old Testament and base our teaching on their doctrine and the doctrine of the New Testament.

So don’t accuse me of disagreeing with books of the Bible, when I do not. I simply disagree with interpretations of them and in some cases where you believe you know what they mean, I say that I don’t know what they mean and don’t expect to know until the Eschaton.

This is particularly the case with any texts that could be used in an attempt to calculate the expected return date of Christ our True God, for the simple reason that God Incarnate declared this to be unknowable by humans, and George Miller inadvertently caused the Great Disappointment by attempting to calculate a date from it, and getting 1844, which was unfortunately for him in the immediate future, and naturally this led to some disillusionment and confusion. My view is that George Miller should not have even attempted to do that based on what Christ our True God said, that the date of His return is known only to the Father, and that humans cannot know the time of His return. And this view is also held by most denominations.

"

Which ones? I am genuinely curious.

pretty much all dispensationalist groups have the 70 weeks of Daniel as 490 years that at the very least extend forward day-for-year into the time of Christ.

AI says -- "
Dispensationalism's Perspective:
Dispensationalists interpret Daniel 9:24-27 literally, focusing on the 490 years (70 weeks of 7 years each) as a specific period of time dedicated to Israel.

• The 69th Week and the Gap:
  They believe the 69th week (483 years) ended with the death of Christ, marking the fulfillment of the Messiah's coming. They see a "gap" between the 69th and 70th weeks, representing a period where God's focus shifted to the Church.
  
  These include some Baptists, particularly those associated with the Southern Baptist Convention and independent Baptist churches, Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations like the Assemblies of God, Brethren groups like the Plymouth Brethren, and independent Bible churches
  

and apart from dispensationalists ...

The day for year principle in the Historicist model was the dominant view of Protestants until the mid-1800's.

As AI states "The "day for a year" principle is a core concept within the historicist method of interpreting Bible prophecy. It states that a "day" in a prophetic time period represents a literal year. This principle is used to decipher and interpret time prophecies, particularly in the books of Daniel and Revelation"

from wikipedia "Almost all Protestant Reformers from the Reformation into the 19th century held historicist views.[1] |

Day-year principle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians.[14][15][16]

Others who expounded the Historicist interpretation are John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Philip Melanchthon, Isaac Newton, Jan Hus, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards,[17] George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, and Bishop Thomas Newton.[18]"

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Christ's atoning sacrifice was completed in full at the cross - but the judgment aspect of the Day of Atonement still continues and as Dan 7 points out WILL CONTINUE until all is completed which ends all persecution of the saints - which everyone agrees is still happening today. This is irrefutable when it comes to seeing saints still persecuted. Not even a question.

I see no Day of Atonement in or involved with Daniel 7. I have absolutely no cause to obey the Law of the God-broken covenant to the Children of Israel, concerning the Day of Atonement. Do you have either?

 

[BobRyan]

I see no Day of Atonement in or involved with Daniel 7.

As the first 3 posts of this thread show - Dan 7 shows judgment by God solving the problem for little-horn persecution of the saints. See the details in those posts.

Dan 8 is the one that points to the "cleansing of the sanctuary" as the solution to that same problem, which is of course "Day of Atonement" the day of judgment. Notice that we don't even reference it at all in those leading posts since it is not needed to see the text of Dan 7 showing a pre-advent judgment that occurs in heaven all-the-while saints are persecuted on Earth.

I have absolutely no cause to obey the Law of the God-broken covenant

Do not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
Honor father and mother Ex 20:12 Eph 6:1-3, Matt 19, Rom 13, James 2 ...
1 John 5:3-4 "This IS The Love of God that we keep His Commandments"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

to the Children of Israel, concerning the Day of Atonement. Do you have either?

The OT Models such as Passover - point to Christ as the Savior as our High Priest in heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No. I disagree with that. We don’t know the meaning of the numbers in Daniel or their exact signifigance. The Early Church never to my knowledge reached a consensus on it, and no prophetic or chilaistic projection has come up with a consistent timeframe derived from Daniel (and what is more Chiliasm was meant to be excluded by the Nicene Creed, which declares of our Lord “His Kingdom shall have no end.” That we have at present we have Chiliasts who agree with the Nicene Creed is an interesting anachronism since it was the intent of the Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Synod to exclude the possibility of that belief. But perhaps the modern Chiliasts project our Lord having two Kingdoms or otherwise deal with the contradiction, which was not the belief of the early Chiliasts. Perhaps our most knowledgeable and learned friend @ViaCrucis might be able to reconcile the two positions.

I don't know how to reconcile Chiliasm with the Creed, or with Scripture either.
Our Lord Jesus Christ, was taken up into heaven, and is seated as King Messiah, the Risen Lord, the Son of Man given all power, rule, and authority--which is forever and ever. And He reigns, as St. Paul says, until all things are under His feet, the last enemy being death. Death's end is when He returns and we are raised up, for then "Death is swallowed up in victory".

I simply don't see a way to make Chiliasm compatible with Scripture without throwing much of the plain language of Scripture out, and taking ambiguous and figurative language as a substitute.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

REgarding the 70 weeks of Dan 9 - that use day-for-year and end in the year of Mark 1:14-15 as Christ confirms "The time IS fulfilled" regarding that Dan 9 timeline pointing go the time of the start of Christ's work as the Messiah.

We don’t know the meaning of the numbers in Daniel or their exact signifigance.

Who is "We" ??

A great many denominations already admit to the obvious point above

The Early Church never to my knowledge reached a consensus on it, and no prophetic or chilaistic projection

Chiliasm has nothing to do with predicting the first coming of Christ.

has come up with a consistent timeframe derived from Daniel (and what is more Chiliasm was meant to be excluded by the Nicene Creed,

If you have something in the Nicene Creed saying we don't know the time of Christ's coming as Messiah 2000 years ago or that the great Dan 9 Messianic prophecy did not predict it -- according to the Nicene creed, now would be a good time to post that evidence.

 

[BobRyan]

I see no Day of Atonement in or involved with Daniel 7. I have absolutely no cause to obey the Law of the God-broken covenant to the Children of Israel, concerning the Day of Atonement. Do you have either?

The Day of Atonement in Dan 8 - is an interesting topic and will get us to the year and day of the judgment described in Dan 7 - but the focus of this thread is just on the pre-advent investigative judgment that is
1. pre-advent
2. investigative 'judged out of the things written on books'
3. Judgment

This thread will show that the pre-advent Investigative judgment teaching - comes right out of Dan 7.

Daniel 7 alone tells us some key facts for those paying attention to the details in Dan chapter 7.

1. Judgment happens before the 2nd coming. (Pre-Advent) and when Judgment ends we have 2nd coming/appearing according to the chapter
2. The Dan 7 Judgment scope includes the saints ... and concludes with "judgment passed in favor of the saints". vs 22.
3. The (little horn) persecution of the saints does not stop until after the judgment completes. So it is the key to ending that problem of the little horn.
4. The 1260 years of dark ages persecution before the 2nd coming event at the end of Dan 7.
5. The judgment event happens near or after the end point for the dark ages persecution of the saints.

But it is not a claim that the year and day of that judgment can be known by the details in Dan 7 alone. For that added info -- we need Dan 8 and 9 which is beyond the scope of this thread.

...

 

[BobRyan]

I simply don't see a way to make Chiliasm compatible with Scripture without throwing much of the plain language of Scripture out, and taking ambiguous and figurative language as a substitute.

-CryptoLutheran

for "some" -- "Chiliasm, also known as millennialism, is the belief in a future earthly period of peace and prosperity, often associated with Christ's return to reign for 1,000 years".

This thread is not promoting an earthly millennial reign of Christ in the future.

 

[ViaCrucis]

for "some" -- "Chiliasm, also known as millennialism, is the belief in a future earthly period of peace and prosperity, often associated with Christ's return to reign for 1,000 years".

This thread is not promoting an earthly millennial reign of Christ in the future.

You're right, this thread is about the totally nonsense idea of "investigative judgment". A totally made up doctrine in order to try and pretend like the Miller's Great Disappointment wasn't the total failure of a prediction that it was.

I'm glad we got that settled.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

You're right, this thread is about the totally nonsense idea of "investigative judgment".

Simply engaging in name-calling is "less than compelling" deal with the actual texts , deal with the actual posts on page 1.

A totally made up doctrine

Simply engaging in name-calling is "less than compelling" deal with the actual texts , deal with the actual posts on page 1.

be specific rather than confining yourself to vague pejoratives.

This is called "discussion"

=================

frankly I can't think of a good place to engage in that sort of behavior.

 

[RandyPNW]

Dan 8 parallels Dan 7.

In both chapters - the little horn persecutes the saints.
IN both chapters the focus is on events that take place after the rise of a great empire - greater than Persia and Greece
in both chapters the saints are persecuted until the solving event - concludes

In Dan 7 that solution is called "judgment" --- the court sits the books are opened.
In Dan 8 that solution is called "the sanctuary cleansed"

The cleansing of the sanctuary in the ceremonial system is "Day of Atonement" in Lev 23 and Lev 16 - it is recognized as the great day of judgment in which the fate of all mankind is sealed.

In Dan 9 - we all agree that the apocalyptic text uses day for a year interpretation of the 490 days, 70 weeks. Same rule is used in Dan 7 and 8.

Yes, there is similar language from Dan 7 to Dan 8. It doesn't mean they are the same, but there appears to be a purpose is making them similar.

My own thought is that the saints are warned about the pattern of evil that arises again and again. The spirit of Satan has been around from the beginning, and the spirit of Antichrist has been here since Christ's earthly ministry.

So we are to expect some opposition, even as the Lord helps us to testify to the truth. It is by our testimony that the world is brought under judgment, or saved as the case may be. We are called to take the testimony of Jesus everywhere. But there are those who are hostile to our testimony, and we are called upon to face that with boldness and with courage, not letting go of our message of love and forgiveness.

 

[beedoux]

b

 

[beedoux]

b

 

[BobRyan]

b

Welcome b

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 8 parallels Dan 7.

In both chapters - the little horn persecutes the saints.
IN both chapters the focus is on events that take place after the rise of a great empire - greater than Persia and Greece
in both chapters the saints are persecuted until the solving event - concludes


In Dan 7 that solution is called "judgment" --- the court sits the books are opened.
In Dan 8 that solution is called "the sanctuary cleansed"


The cleansing of the sanctuary in the ceremonial system is "Day of Atonement" in Lev 23 and Lev 16 - it is recognized as the great day of judgment in which the fate of all mankind is sealed.

Yes, there is similar language from Dan 7 to Dan 8.

indeed -

The same little horn
the same saints persecuted
the same solution - but described two different ways.

And both use the same day-for-year apocalyptic timeline model as Dan 9 with its 70 weeks.

But as the OP says - this entire thread proves its case from Dan 7 alone.

My own thought is that the saints are warned about the pattern of evil that arises again and again. The spirit of Satan has been around from the beginning, and the spirit of Antichrist has been here since Christ's earthly ministry.

So we are to expect some opposition, even as the Lord helps us to testify to the truth. It is by our testimony that the world is brought under judgment, or saved as the case may be. We are called to take the testimony of Jesus everywhere. But there are those who are hostile to our testimony, and we are called upon to face that with boldness and with courage, not letting go of our message of love and forgiveness.

If we omit enough details we can get to a more generalized view -- I agree.

But the point of this thread is that Dan 7 alone establishes "pre-advent , Investigative judgment" that when completed results in the coming of Christ.

This thread will show that the pre-advent Investigative judgment teaching - comes right out of Dan 7.

Daniel 7 alone tells us some key facts for those paying attention to the details in Dan chapter 7.

1. Judgment happens before the 2nd coming. (Pre-Advent) and when Judgment ends we have 2nd coming/appearing according to the chapter
2. The Dan 7 Judgment scope includes the saints ... and concludes with "judgment passed in favor of the saints". vs 22.
3. The (little horn) persecution of the saints does not stop until after the judgment completes. So it is the key to ending that problem of the little horn.
4. The 1260 years of dark ages persecution before the 2nd coming event at the end of Dan 7.
5. The judgment event happens near or after the end point for the dark ages persecution of the saints.

But it is not a claim that the year and day of that judgment can be known by the details in Dan 7 alone. For that added info -- we need Dan 8 and 9 which is beyond the scope of this thread.

What do Seventh-day Adventists Believe? lists the actual voted beliefs of the denomination

Belief #24 states our position on the judgment - as noted here #7

The Investigative Judgment doctrine that Adventists teach is found in places like Dan 7 and Rom 2. It declares that before the return of Christ , He engages in a work of judgment that results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22. And that as Dan 7 states - when that judgment completes all persecution of Christians ceases and the 2nd coming happens, but until then the saints are being opposed, persecuted..etc.

Adventists say that this is a doctrine that stands or falls "sola scriptura". So the case made is from scripture alone as is shown on this thread.

(Usually - those who claim it is not based on scripture at all, will of course try to ignore every scripture detail presented and "wish away" the texts without actually looking at them in detail or responding in detail (as some posts will show even on this thread).

Solution: the "solution" to little-horn persecution in Daniel 7 is "the judgment", and that same "solution" to persecution by the little horn in Daniel 8 is called the "cleansing of the sanctuary" in Dan 8..

Romans 2:4-16 gives us the process for how names are accepted vs rejected in that judgment and tells us that the event is still future to Paul's day in vs 16 of Rom 2.

2 Cor 5:10 tells us that it is for all the saints - all -- in the future - must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

==========================

Number #1 - main point

Number #2 main point
Dan 7 ALONE establishes:

1. the pre-advent judment-out-of-books CORPORATE event (court-room event),
2. where details in books are evaluated
3. by the non-God courtroom observers,
4. and the conclusion reached is "judgment passed in favor of the saints"
5. Such that once the conclusion is reached all persecution of the saints ends
6. , and the kingdom is turned over.

Another way to say the above -- the purpose of the thread is to show from Dan 7 that:
1. there is a judgment in heaven
2. it concludes before the advent of Christ
3. It involves the cases of the saints just as is the case in Rom 2 and 2 Cor 5:10
4. it is based out of the books - things written in books (as also the NT affirms)
5. The saints are being persecuted the entire time that the judgment goes until..

The purpose of the thread is not to show the start day of that judgment or the start date of the 490 years of Dan 9 or the start date of the 2300 years - though I provide an example of such dates in the following posts ...whether or not you accept those dates does not change the 5 points listed here. All you need to do is admit that the method that is employed for those dates "is an example" of such a method -- that exists for about 23 million Christians today. Not exactly rocket science to agree that such a method exists so the point of the thread is given in the lists enumerated above - that is the main point of the thread.