Daniel 7 Pre-advent, Investigated out of books, Judgment affirmed by Adventist

[BobRyan]

Dan. 7:9-10 (Day atonement, investigation of judgment, Judgment set) (Daniel)
...
Dan. 7:22b (Ancient of Days, God the Father, moves from holy to most holy in Heaven) (Daniel)
Dan. 7:26 (Judgment sit)

So then Dan 7:22 refers to Dan 7:9 where the ancient of days goes to the Most Holy Place. But that is too much info for a Dan 7 only topic.

We notice that Dan 7 does not mention the sanctuary at all -

So to get that added information we would need Dan 8 . In Dan 7 we find that "judgment" in heaven is the solution for the Dan 7 problem of saints being persecuted

In Dan 8 we see the same problem of the saints being persecuted - only in Dan 8 the "solution" is called the "Cleansing of the sanctuary\" instead of the "judgment".

Only by combining the details in those two chapters can you get anything like "moving to the most holy place for judgment".

This thread is just about the facts that can be known when reading Dan 7 - and the reason for that is that so many people object to those Dan 7 facts alone - long before you get to Dan 8 details.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus was given sovereign power by the Father in that court room event, vs. 14, any thoughts on that?

13-14 points to the end/goal of the whole thing -- just as does vs 26-27
It is the same end/point "goal" shown in Dan 2


13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.


26 ‘...the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

============== same ending as in Dan 2

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

=================

But to get there - the FIRST thing that must happens is the pre-advent Dan 7:9-10 has to conclude in favor of the saints. Only when they are all identified can they all be raptured - (resurrected, translated) - as in 1 Thess 4:13-18. Which ends the persecution of the saints.

Just as Dan 7 points out.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan. 7:22 follows, Dan. 7:21 (1,260 day/years) (AD 538-AD 1798)

Dan. 7:22 is not a single period of time, but multiple.

Dan. 7:22a, "until" refers back to Dan. 7:21, war with the saints, prevailing "until" God the Father moves places in Heaven, a reference back to Dan. 7:9-10. So the "until" is the ending period of the previous verse, vs 21, the 1,260 (AD 538-AD1798). See also Dan. 8:13-14,26, 11:31-40, 12:7,11-12 (1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 2,300).

Dan. 7:22b, "the Ancient of Days" (Person/Being of the Father) "came" (moved places in Heaven, see Dan. 7:9-10), after the period of 1,260. See Dan. 8:13-14,26, 11:40, 12:7,11-12. Judgment is set in Heaven with angels going over books, not humans but they look at human records, see Dan. 12:1.

Dan. 7:22c, comes after the period of judgment by the Ancient of Days and angels, Dan. 12:1, when the saints (humans) have the judgment "given to, given unto" them in Heaven (Rev. 20:4; Psa. 149:1-9) This is during the time when the kingdoms of earth had been taken away, and yet their lives were prolonged in sleep of death for 1000 years, Dan. 7:12.

Dan. 7:22d is the "time" after the 1000 years, when the wicked are finally destroyed and the saints "possess" the Kingdom on earth as promised by God.

There is nothing in Dan. 7:22 that says judgment is given in favor of the saints.

It is interesting that when one clicks on each of your Dan 7:22 references above we get this box popped up

22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (NKJV)​

It is a private interpretation, a private translation. There is no Hebrew 'authority' for it. There is no Greek authority (Origen's Hexapla) for it (εδωκενG1325, V-AAI-3S, a verb meaning committed to, given to, &c; ie Judgment is given or committed to/into the hands of the saints).

The argument that all the translations are incorrect is an uphill battle.

I find it more convincing to just let the translations be as they are. Especially since in the case of this point - it makes a lot of sense to say that the Pre-advent judgment of Dan 7:9-10 is doing exactly what Romans 2:5-16 says they are doing prior to the conclusion of the judgment. Which is taking each case and either passing in favor or judging against each name that comes up in the manner that Romans 2 says they are doing.

There is not even a verse in the Bible which says given in favor of the saints. The parallel in Rev. 20, Isa. 24 and elsewhere teach that the Judgment is passed from the hands of God the Father and the angels about the saints, into the hands of Jesus and his body (mankind) saints; 1 Cor. 6:2-3, &c. during the 1000 years in heaven above.

My objection is not to the judgment of 1Cor 6 that happens when NO saints are being persecuted. That happens during the 1000 years.
No do I object to saints judging the wicked as 1 Cor 6 says.
But that is NOT what happens in the pre-advent judgment of Dan 7:9-10 -- and Dan 7:22 is most assuredly talking about that judgment since it is the context for Dan 7:22

However the 1000 years is not part of the Dan 7 judgment event. IT is very specifically a pre-advent judgment that completes BEFORE the coming of Christ at the end of Dan 7 - (an event that THEN starts the 1000 years - as we both agree).

To teach otherwise destroys the lesson God desires to teach about the church in judgment. I have told you the truth. I have given the evidence. I now leave it with you.

You have landed pretty hard on your "after Dan chapter 7" topic of what happens during the millennium - after the Dan 7:9-10 judgment ends.

I don't deny any of those events that happen after the saints are raptured, after the Dan 7:9-10 judgment is totally ended. (As I suspect both you and I know)

My interest is in what is IN Dan 7 as the details it is focused on.

 

[The Liturgist]

So say we all ..the idea that all those judgment texts you are still ignoring - are there because God does not know something - is opposed to all of scripture. Have another go at it.


It appears you are still searching for something that will support your idea.

I’m not searching for anything to support my idea. The fact is, the Adventists appear to believe that time progresses for God the same way it progresses for us, and ignore the clearly established Scriptural principle of Divine immutability.

And even if they don’t, there are still problems with what Ellen G White wrote in the form of historical errors and omissions, and the Sabbatarian position is untenable, and additionally the Adventist interpretation of pericopes such as John 6 and Mark 7 disagrees with the Patristic context, the context of the Magisterial Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Wesley, etc, and the historical context. It’s simply not a coherent or credible approach to hermeneutics.

And of course the elephant in the room is that in regarding the writings of Ellen G White as inspired prophecy, whether you admit it or not, you have put her writings on a par with those in the Holy Bible, particularly inasmuch as most Christians do not agree with Adventists that her views correspond with the plain and obvious meanings of the text.

Additionally, I do try to give the SDA credit where credit is due - recently they have been displaying crosses more prominently on their churches, and have sought more ecumenical fellowship with other Christians, and furthermore EGW did take an anti-Arian position, and is largely responsible for Trinitarianism being the prevailing concept among Adventists today, with only a small minority denying the deity of Christ. And that was a good thing for her to do.

And you will not I have also consistently criticized the Roman Catholics, who your church seems to regard as your arch-nemesis, where they actually warrant criticism. For example, fiducia supplicans and traditiones custodes.

I will state that I do have serious problems with Restorationist churches in general, not just your denomination - I even have objections to the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ and the Churches of Christ that arose from the Stone/Campbell movement despite the huge achievement they made in being the second English-language Protestant denomination after the Methodists (who later retrenched on this tragically) to celebrate communion weekly. And I object to the Plymouth Brethren at least as much as I object to Seventh Day Adventism on doctrinal grounds, since the Plymouth Brethren, via John Nelson Darby, introduced and disseminated the doctrine of Premillenial Dispensationilism, which is an innovation which I regard as without a strong scriptural basis, but one which has the undesirable effect of capturing the imagination of the faithful with its eschatological speculations. And Premillenial Dispensationalism has become far more mainstream than the Sabbatarianism of the SDA and other doctrines taught by EGW and other Adventists which are unusual. One will encounter Premillenial Dispensationalism in Baptist, Presbyterian and even some conservative Methodist churches, and it has become predominant among those Christians who identify as Evangelical or Fundamentalist, whether they are denominational or so called “non-denominational”, and one even finds it among the Pentecostals.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Morning Bob, Following is the 2nd post of the three.


Prophecy 10
The Baby Jesus Revelation 12:1-6

Beginning point in time: Just before Jesus was born, Ending point in time: 1798

Summary: This is a story about Lucifer (the dragon), Christ (the male child), and the people of God (the woman). Although it is not explicitly said in this story, Lucifer hated Christ long before Jesus was born. This prophecy begins with Lucifer attempting to kill Jesus at birth, but he fails. Lucifer then focuses his hatred for Jesus on the bride of Christ, but she flees into the wilderness to a place prepared for her. For 1,260 years, God’s people overcame persecution and difficult circumstances through faith in Jesus.

Introduction: Prophecy 10 provides a foundation for Prophecy 11 in the same way that Prophecy 1 (Daniel 2) provides a foundation for Prophecy 2 (Daniel 7). We have seen, in this book, how repetition and enlargement allows God to review many important concepts with the fewest possible words. On the surface, this prophecy appears to be short and simple, but its depth may surprise you.

This prophecy reveals two essential facts in a mere six verses. First, in broad strokes, it chronicles the passage of eighteen centuries, from the birth of Jesus in 4 B.C. down to 1798. Second, it speaks volumes about the actions of Lucifer. Most Christians believe in a devil, but few have carefully studied his clever and determined efforts. Some Christians unintentionally derail the purpose of this prophecy by forcing Lucifer’s “agents” into the spotlight. In other words, they put King Herod and papal Rome at center stage, but this should not be done. Jesus and Lucifer are the central characters in Rev., story. The agents involved are secondary to the story. Keep in mind that before the world was created, Jesus and Lucifer became protagonists. They have been engaged in a deadly conflict for a very long time.

Lucifer is a fallen angel, a demon that human beings cannot see with the naked eye. Of course, God clearly sees the devil and He wants the final generation to understand Lucifer’s prowess before he is released from the Abyss (the spirit realm) to physically appear on Earth. As you already know, during the first four trumpets, a crisis government (a beast called Babylon, the first beast of Rev. 13) will rise to power. When this occurs, the devil will take over. He will give Babylon its great power, authority, and throne. (Rev.13:2) He will accomplish this by using leaders who are controlled by their carnal nature. The carnal nature loves sexual immorality, money, power, and fame and Lucifer knows it.


Jesus will permit the devil to exercise great influence over Babylon during the Great Tribulation because the Holy Spirit will exercise great in influence over all people. Lucifer will empower Babylon while Jesus empowers the 144,000 servant/prophets and this will sharpen the contrast between right and wrong. Jesus will not allow either party to override anyone’s power of choice. The devil will have one objective for Babylon. He intends to destroy God’s people, the remnant of the woman.(Re. 12:17) Through his agents, (the leaders of Babylon and those who obey them), the devil will wage a war against God’s people for 42 miserable months.(Rev. 13:5-7) (literal, time as the day/yr., Jubilee reckoning of time ended after 70 jubilee cycles in 1994)

God placed Prophecy 10 in the Bible so that Christians can look behind a curtain and see what really occurred when Jesus was born. Lucifer is a predator and a heartless thug. He will do whatever it takes to destroy God’s purposes and people. One interesting part of this story is that the devil is able to get agents to unwittingly carry out his wishes.(Eph. 6:12) Therefore, God wants everyone to know and understand that there is a determined and intelligent demon at work who cannot be seen (at the present time). Events transpiring before our eyes are not always what they appear to be. Every day, we see and hear about horrible crimes and the secular mind interprets these atrocities as evil people doing evil things, but there is far more to evil behavior than this. Remember how King Herod decreed that all of the baby boys in Bethlehem under the age of two were to be killed.(Matt. 2:16) Secular historians claim that Herod was a wicked man who committed this atrocity to protect his throne from a messianic baby, but the Bible pulls back the veil and reveals something far more sinister. Lucifer controlled Herod.

Herod actually carried out Lucifer’s desire to kill Baby Jesus. Herod did not act on his own. Over time, the king had come under Lucifer’s demonic control and Herod’s predatory behavior reveals the depth of his demon possession. The clearest evidence of demonic possession is predatory violence. Think about this: If the 144,000 servant/prophets will be the “arms and legs” of the Two Witnesses, it stands to reason that demon possessed people will serve as Lucifer’s “arms and legs” during the Great Tribulation.

 

[BobRyan]

I’m not searching for anything to support my idea.

ok-- I think we can all agree there.

The fact is, the Adventists appear to believe that time progresses for God the same way it progresses for us

Nope.

Rather we believe that when Jesus (-- God the Son) said He would "rise again the third day" -- that He accurately communicated a time sequence even though some folks find that idea to be very inconvenient -- at a time when details need to be ignored for the sake of a preference.

there are still problems with what Ellen G White wrote

All your own "Ellen white wrote" problems - are your own posts here they are not mine. My posts refer to Dan 7 -- consider reading the chapter that is the subject of this thread.

And of course the elephant in the room is that in regarding the writings of Ellen G White as inspired prophecy..

All your own "Ellen white wrote" problems- are your own posts here they are not mine. My posts refer to Dan 7 -- consider reading the chapter that is the subject of this thread.

- recently they have been displaying crosses more prominently...

Not the subject of this thread

And you will note I have also consistently criticized the Roman Catholics

ok but not the subject of this thread.

I will state that I do have serious problems with Restorationist churches in genera

ok but not the subject of this thread.

 

[The Liturgist]

Rather we believe that when Jesus (-- God the Son) said He would "rise again the third day" -- that He accurately communicated a time sequence even though some folks find that idea to be very inconvenient -- at a time when details need to be ignored for the sake of a preference.

The time sequence he communicated was that he would rise again on Sunday, after resting in the tomb on the Sabbath, having remade man in His image on Friday, as was prophesied by Moses in Genesis 1.

 

[BobRyan]

Morning Bob, Following is the 2nd post of the three.


Prophecy 10
The Baby Jesus Revelation 12:1-6

Beginning point in time: Just before Jesus was born, Ending point in time: 1798

Summary: This is a story about Lucifer (the dragon), Christ (the male child), and the people of God (the woman). Although it is not explicitly said in this story, Lucifer hated Christ long before Jesus was born.

True ... it looks like we agree on a lot of what is found in Rev 12

This prophecy reveals two essential facts in a mere six verses. First, in broad strokes, it chronicles the passage of eighteen centuries, from the birth of Jesus in 4 B.C. down to 1798.

Agreed.

And we also agree that the saints continue to be persecuted long after 1798. Rev 13 points to more persecution after that 1798 end point of the 1260 years that is mentioned in Rev 11 and in Rev 12 and in Rev 13. The same as we see in Dan 7.

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is, the Adventists appear to believe that time progresses for God the same way it progresses for us

Nope.

Rather we believe that when Jesus (-- God the Son) said He would "rise again the third day" -- that He accurately communicated a time sequence even though some folks find that idea to be very inconvenient -- at a time when details need to be ignored for the sake of a preference.

When He says "the third day" for the resurrection - it is accurate.
When He says 1260 days using the Dan 9 day-for-year model - that 1260 year timeline is also accurate.

The very method of accurate timeline communication you seem to claim that God cannot provide in scripture.

The time sequence he communicated was that he would rise again on Sunday,

Jesus never said "I will rise on Sunday"
Jesus never said "I will rise on week day 1"

Rather He said the very thing you claim God cannot do, cannot put in scripture.

Matt 16
21 From that time Jesus began to point out to His disciples that it was necessary for Him to go to Jerusalem and to suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and to be raised up on the third day.

He uses the timeline form "The third day" instead of designating a day of the week with no timeline (the way you seem to suppose it)

Your wild claim that God cannot give us accurate timelines as in Matt 16 and Dan 7 - is without support in scripture for those who accept Christ's real , literal timeline in Matt 16.

And of course a Friday crucifixion using inclusive reckoning for the timeline would make Sunday the third day. So then we see Luke 24 specifying that week-day-1 "is the third day". But that is not in the form of a prediction. Dan 7 and Matt 16 are timelines given in a prophecy, a prediction -- the very thing you claim God either can not do , or does not do in scripture.

 

[Tigger Boy]

There is not even a verse in the Bible which says given in favor of the saints. The parallel in Rev. 20, Isa. 24 and elsewhere teach that the Judgment is passed from the hands of God the Father and the angels about the saints, into the hands of Jesus and his body (mankind) saints; 1 Cor. 6:2-3, &c. during the 1000 years in heaven above.

Bob Rayan's response: My objection is not to the judgment of 1Cor 6 that happens when NO saints are being persecuted. That happens during the 1000 years.
No do I object to saints judging the wicked as 1 Cor 6 says.
But that is NOT what happens in the pre-advent judgment of Dan 7:9-10 -- and Dan 7:22 is most assuredly talking about that judgment since it is the context for Dan 7:22

Pardon me gentlemen, I would like to add my two cents to this conversation: I think that the three of us agree that our omnipotent God has the power to establish kings or kingdoms, and to remove them as He pleases. With that said, why then is it so difficult to understand Daniel 7? Which prophesied the rise of four kingdoms, and the rise of a little horn [papacy] out of the forth, that would wage war against the saints and prevail against them for 1260 years, until God the father convened court in heaven, and would take away it's power.

Of course this is my understanding of the prophecy, however, is it logical? Does it appeal to your common sense? Is it within God's power to achieve this?

Truth is historical facts prove that all of the events from the rise of the first Kingdom through the end of the 1260 years allotted the horn power to prevail against the saints, and the seating of the heavenly court has been fulfilled. The only event not yet fulfilled is the completion of the pre-advent judgement and the time when the saints of all time, shall posses God's new kingdom here on earth. It does not require the understanding of the Hebrew or Creek texts, God is not complicated as the educated would have us believe. He uses the simple things to confuse the wise.

I would like to inject here another concept about apocalyptic prophecy which you may not be aware of, and it is this. As man we can't see into heaven, so God has provide a way to inform us what He is doing and when. Example, in Rev. 4&5 John is shown a heavenly court room event as well. If you compare his details of what he saw to what Daniel saw centuries earlier most would conclude both men were show the same event. However, John was given no idea as to when it took place. It is only when students of prophecy make the connection that they both were shown the same event, can the timing of Johns vision be determined, because God connected the court room event in Daniel's vision to the end of the 1260 reign of the little horn's power, ending in 1798. So both prophets were zoomed forward in time to view the same heavenly court room event, and we know based on the more sure word of prophecy that event, the pre- advent judgement started in 1798. This means is referred to as the heaven to earth linkage law. It is used in several prophecies.

Bob, I know you most likely are uncomfortable with that last sentence because we teach, which I agree with, the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary would begin at the end of the 2300 day/yrs. of Dan. 8, which is 1844. Does this sound unreasonable, before the Father and Jesus could get to the actual cleansing of the sanctuary they had to deal with other prophetic events that would take the court from 1798 to 1844 to complete? If that sounds plausible and your open to what I believe prophecy reveals these issues were, I will share those insights with you. If not I will not waste my time and effort.

Last of my three post coming tomorrow

 

[The Liturgist]

Your wild claim that God cannot give us accurate timelines as in Matt 16 and Dan 7 -

I have made no such claim. I am merely dismissing the Adventist interpretation of those timelines as being intrinsically flawed, because it disagrees with what virtually every other Christian denomination teaches on the subject, including the Early Church Fathers and the Reformers. And I am not making the claim on my on behalf, but to represent their views on the matter.

And while we’re on the subject, your church denies that Christ our True God was speaking literally at the Last Supper and in John chapter 6, but there, it is clear that he is speaking literally, and it is also clear that he is speaking literally with regards to saying when He will be resurrected, which is the First Day of the Week, after resting on the Saturday.

I was not aware that the Adventists went so far as to actually deny that our Lord rose from the grave on Sunday - are you actually telling me that that is what you believe? Because the early church made it very clear that he rose from the dead on the 14th of Nissan, which was, in the year 33 AD, a Sunday. The whole controversy between the Quartodecimians and everyone else was whether or not to celebrate the Pascha on the 14th of Nissan itself or on the Sunday that immediately followed the 14th of Nissan and the vernal equinox (as it had in 33 AD).

 

[Tigger Boy]

And we also agree that the saints continue to be persecuted long after 1798. Rev 13 points to more persecution after that 1798 end point of the 1260 years that is mentioned in Rev 11 and in Rev 12 "and in Rev 13. The same as we see in Dan 7."

Bob, yes I am in agreement with your statement up until, the portion I have placed within quotation marks. My last of three post will demonstrate why prophecy does not support your reasoning.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Prophecy 11
The Rise of Babylon Revelation 12:7-14:5
Beginning point in time: Resurrection Sunday, A.D. 30 Ending point in time: 1,265th day of the Great Tribulation.

Summary: This apocalyptic prophecy describes three types of kingdoms: Political, religious, and demonic. The first type lasted approximately 1,000 years (605 B.C.- 538 A.D.). During this time, political leaders governed world empires (represented by the four beasts in Daniel 7). The second type lasted 1,260 years (538- 1798). During this time, religious leaders dominated the nations of Europe (the little horn in Daniel 7). The third and final type of kingdom will last 42 months and a demon will dominate it. This progression speaks volumes.

The final kingdom will have two phases. During Phase I, (the beast from the sea) Lucifer will achieve an important objective through the world’s religious and political leaders. After the first four trumpets demolish the infrastructures of Earth and one forth of mankind has been killed, (Rev. 6:7,8) the whole world will be in a state of panic and trauma. The devil will seize the moment to bring the whole world under the jurisdiction of one government. The book of Revelation calls this government Babylon. To appease God’s wrath, the leaders of the world will unite in a common effort to eliminate the sinful behaviors they believe made God angry. Once this union becomes functional, the devil will inspire the leaders of Babylon to create and implement “sin-less” laws to appease God’s wrath. Because the world will be very fearful of God, these laws will seem “reasonable and appropriate,” but they will quickly put God’s saints in a dire situation. The leaders of Babylon will not realize, at first, the unintended consequences of their laws. The laws of Babylon will stand in direct opposition to the laws of God. Lucifer’s objective during Phase I is to identify and punish all who choose to obey the eternal gospel. Civil authorities, like police officers or militia in each locality, will enforce the laws of Babylon. They will do as they are commanded (even after many within their ranks realize that what they are doing is wrong) for fear of losing their job and/or being punished by their commanders.

Phase II (the image to the first beast) will begin when Lucifer physically appears on Earth with his angels. John describes the physical appearing of the devil in three different places throughout the book of Revelation1 and each reference reveals a new dimension about this wily foe. Masquerading as Almighty God, Lucifer will betray the leadership of Babylon so he can establish a counterfeit theocracy during the sixth trumpet. The devil will abolish all the religions and governments of the world. During Phase II, there will be one lord, one faith, and one baptism; a one-world-church-state. For a short time, the devil will rule over the world as king of kings and lord of lords. Everyone will do as he says or die.

Prophecy 11 describes the transition of Lucifer from an invisible state to a visible state. The devil will appear physically as a majestic being wearing a glorious garment of brilliant light! (2 Cor. 11:14) Jesus permits the devil to appear so that mankind can observe his words and actions, in the same way the Father permitted Jesus to appear so mankind could observe the God head. Because Lucifer is evil incarnate, even a wicked person will learn for himself that Lucifer is a grossly evil super power.

This prophecy begins on Resurrection Sunday and it reaches to the time when the 144,000 ascend on the 1,265th day of the Great Tribulation. God has given us this prophecy because He wants us to study and anticipate Lucifer’s actions even though he is currently invisible. The devil is extremely clever and powerful. The world has not seen anything that even remotely compares with the physical appearing of Lucifer. He will come down from the sky, attended by millions of demons (fallen angels). They will be very large in stature, perhaps fifteen feet tall.(1 Kings 6:25) They will physically dwarf the people of Earth and worse, guns and artillery cannot kill them. The whole world will find out that human beings are no match for fallen angels. Lucifer will take over the world and no one can thwart him.

Introduction: This prophecy consists of five events that occur in chronological order.

The devil is cast out of Heaven (verses 7-12)
The devil persecutes the woman for 1,260 years (verses 13-16)
The devil wages war on the remnant of the woman (verses 12:17-13:10)
The devil physically appears, sets up his theocracy (the image to the first beast) and implements the mark of the beast (verses 13:11-18)
The 144,000 celebrate in a victory ceremony in Heaven (verses 14:1-14:5)

The coming victory celebration of the 144,000 may not seem to
be “all that important” today, but a day is coming when their victory celebration will serve as a powerful beacon during a very depressing time. During the sixth trumpet, Lucifer will appear to meet his objectives. He will abolish the religions and governments of the world, kill a third of mankind, and set up a counterfeit theocracy. Even more distressing, many of the remnant of the woman (the saints) will be killed and most, if not all, of the 144,000 will also be martyrs. Thankfully, this dismal situation is not the end of this story! Victory day will surely come. When the remaining saints see the 144,000 resurrected and taken to Heaven, the saints will be overjoyed! When wicked murderers see the 144,000 taken to Heaven, they will become terrified and panic stricken. The resurrection and ascension of the 144,000 is pivotal in this story because it marks the end of Lucifer’s success. After Jesus gathers the “ first fruits” to Heaven, Jesus will methodically destroy Babylon and the wicked with the seven bowls of justice. Jesus will avenge the suffering of His saints.(Rev. 18: 5,6)

After reading this introduction, consider reading through the prophecy and see if it makes more sense just as it reads.

Bob, it is my prayer that after considering these three post, that you begin to realize the importance of knowing the beginning and ending of each prophecy, so a proper understand of it can be realized. Too, that the persecution the world will face during closing events will not come from the papacy, but rather the physical appearance of Satan, the “ANTICHRIST,” the man of sin, and his angles.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Bob, I'm posting this parable at this time, because maybe your a little down at this time, because of my recent post. And I pray this is the case, what it says to me is the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. I pray you will see yourself in this parable and understand our natural reactions when we come face to face with progressive truths, during our spiritual journey.

The Parable of the Math Teacher

Once upon a time, there was a math teacher who surrendered his life to the Lord. Later, he felt called to serve as a missionary in a foreign land. Eventually, he was invited to teach math in a college in a distant city called Overspent. During the first week of college algebra, the teacher discovered
a puzzling situation. His students could not solve a single math problem correctly. In fact, all of the students gave identical answers for each math problem that he gave them. He asked the students to explain how they entered college – given the fact they did not have the skills necessary to resolve basic math problems. The students said their high school teachers did not require them to work through math problems because highly educated and spiritually guided math teachers long ago had solved all math problems and all that they needed to do was to memorize the answers. The teacher was shocked.

The next day, the teacher set out to remedy the problem. He put this equation on the board: 3c + 5 = 20. He asked the students to solve for c. All of the students reported that c was equal to 3. When the teacher asked how they arrived at 3, they said they had always been taught that the variable c always equals 3. The teacher could not believe his ears. He demonstrated on the chalkboard how c was resolved, and he proved that c = 5 using simple rules of substitution. The students became angry. They were insulted by this “outsider” because he showed no respect for their high school elders and their traditional way of solving math problems. The students told the teacher that if he had written 3e + 5 = 20, their answer would have been 5 because the variable e always equals 5. They had been taught that a always = 1, b always = 2,
c always = 3, etc. The teacher responded by saying that when it comes to math, a variable’s name does not determine its value. It does not matter whether a variable is called “e,” “c”, or “x.” When it comes to resolving a math problem, the process must conform to valid rules or the answer will be erroneous. The students could not bear to hear any more of this heresy, so they rose up as one man and stormed out of class.

The math teacher was stunned.He wondered how he could help his students. They knew nothing about working through math problems or that math is controlled by the four self-evident rules of addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. He thought to himself, “They think they have been properly informed, and they are afraid to consider answers that are contrary to the traditions taught by their elders.” Perplexed by their hostility, he wondered what he could do to get the students to put aside their traditions so that they could consider a mathematical process that would enable them to accurately resolve math problems.

The next day, the teacher plainly said to his students: “Please hear me out. You have been misled. Your knowledge of math is worthless. Memorizing the answer to a math problem is not a substitute for properly working through a legitimate process to reach the correct answer. If you follow the four rules that govern basic math, you can test and validate your answers in many different ways. More importantly, others who know nothing about you or your elders can also reach the same conclusions and they can test the validity of your answers because accurate math solutions are not a matter of opinion, they are a matter of fact. Accurate solutions are proven true when self-evident rules declare them to be true!” Once again, the students became hostile. The teacher had condemned their traditions and their beloved elders. He had insulted them and their high school teachers. They threw desks and chairs at the teacher. During the riot, they beat and kicked him until he died.

When the bell rang at the end of class, the students went away happy. They were relieved that the offending teacher had been silenced. They petitioned the dean of the college to provide a math teacher who would teach according to their elders and their wish was granted and the rest of the school year went very well.

Years later, many of these students graduated from Overspent City College and some of them went to work for the revered elders of the city. Later on, the city faced an enormous financial crisis and all of the elders and college graduates could not stop the city from going bankrupt. When the auditors showed up, no one in the accounting department could figure out what went wrong – literally.

There are four lessons to be learned from this silly parable. First, for most of us, religious traditions and the opinions of respected leaders are usually more important than truth itself. Traditions are familiar and predictable, whereas truth can be disruptive, humiliating, and socially divisive.

Second, it is impossible to be “a defender of tradition” and at the same time, be “a seeker of truth.” These mind sets stand in opposition to each other. When a person is content with what he knows, leave him alone. There is nothing further that you can offer him.

Third, if someone challenges the folly of a tradition, he or she will surely suffer for it.

Last, if we reject or ignore the truth, failure cannot be avoided. We may arrogantly defend our ignorance, but ignorance will not save us from the outcome that truth demands.

 

[The Liturgist]

They knew nothing about working through math problems or that math is controlled by the four self-evident rules of addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. He thought to himself,

A few minor nitpicks:

1. You seem to be conflating arithmetic with mathematics as a whole.
2. Math is controlled by axioms and proven theorems and there are more than four, and most of them have been proven, some ancient, such as Euclid’s Theorem and his Postulates, and modern, such as Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, both of which are demonstrably true.
3. Setting aside the rest of your story about the students peculiar mathematics system, which does not appear at first glance to be consistent, 3c + 5 = 20 where c = 3 is true with base 7 numerals. Specifically:

Let’s represent the number 20 in a generic base b . In base b , the number 20 would be:

20_b = 2b + 0

The equation 3c + 5 = 20 becomes:

3 \cdot 3 + 5 = 2b

Simplify the left side:

9 + 5 = 2b

14 = 2b

b = \frac{14}{2} = 7

Thus, the equation 3c + 5 = 20 holds true in base 7 when c = 3 .

To verify, let’s convert each side of the equation to base 10 and check if they match:

1. Left side: In base 10, 3 \cdot 3 + 5 = 9 + 5 = 14 .
2. Right side: The number 20 in base 7 is 2 \cdot 7 + 0 = 14 .

Since both sides equal 14 in base 10, the equation holds true in base 7 with c = 3 .

Edit: frustratingly XenFora doesn’t seem to support standard conventions used for generating math symbols which are supported in MediaWiki and other CMS systems, and also in LaTeX, but if you plug that text into something that can display it, \cdot and \frac would be replaced with the correct characters. Likewise this means several other mathematical symbols and constants such as Lambda and Psi are unlikely to display correctly either.

 

[Tigger Boy]

13-14 points to the end/goal of the whole thing -- just as does vs 26-27
It is the same end/point "goal" shown in Dan 2

Bob, in response to your response here from post #82, as you understand it, Christ does not receive sovereign power until He returns and sets up His Kingdom. That would mean He wouldn't have it while He was conducting the pre-advent judgement, which we both understand was seated/started in 1798. I know that most christians have no knowledge of the significance of this court room event recorded in Dan. 7, and Rev. 4&5, and why Jesus was given sovereign power at that time.

I hope you and others whom my read these following post will give considerable thought to these insights into the workings of Christ to complete the plan of salvation from 1798 through time, until He usher in His eternal kingdom.

The Exaltation of Jesus
Many people do not appreciate the importance of Daniel 7:13,14 because they do not understand the process that Jesus voluntarily endured to redeem mankind. A book could be written on this amazing topic, but the essence of Christ’s humiliation and exaltation is this: When Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus went to the Father and offered to die in their place. Remember, Adam and Eve were to be executed on the day that they sinned.(Gen. 2:17)Even before the creation of life, the Father foreknew that sin would occur. Therefore, He had a plan of redemption that could be implemented when necessary. The Father would have implemented the plan of redemption for the rebellious angels had they been willing to repent, but they defiantly refused. Lucifer and the angels who followed him committed the unpardonable sin, making redemption impossible.

God’s plan to redeem mankind is intricate because He resolves several issues at the same time. It takes some effort to sort out these issues and understand their purposes. For example, God does not want sin to occur again, so God is resolving the current problem of sin in such a way that no one will ever want to sin again! God has allowed sin to mature because He wants everyone to see how the malignant curse imposes increasing decadence and degeneracy on each succeeding generation. God wants the universe to see what sinners will become and do; when sin is given enough time. God also wants the universe to understand that He is a God of love and His laws and actions always spring from love for His children. God wants the universe to understand that He will not use His foreknowledge to manipulate any outcome that is favorable to Himself. He also wants everyone to know that His subjects really do have the power of choice.

When Jesus went to the Father and offered to pay the price for their sin, the Father revealed the huge price that redemption required. I am sure that Jesus listened thoughtfully, and after hearing the terms required for man’s redemption, He submitted to three conditions. Whatever the Father wanted Jesus to become, He would become. Jesus agreed to become a man. Whatever the Father wanted Jesus to do, He would do. Jesus would live as an inferior among sinners (poor and having no human father), resist every temptation, die a horrible death, and cease to exist. Finally, whatever the Father wanted Jesus to say, He would say – no matter the consequences. Jesus agreed to speak the Father’s words
– no matter what.(Jh. 14:10,24)

When Jesus accepted these terms and conditions, the Father made a covenant with Jesus. (Ps. 2:7-12) If Jesus perfectly carried out the Father’s plan, the Father would (a) resurrect Jesus from the second death,(Jh. 10:17,18) (b) give Jesus authority over His church,(Eph. 1:22) (c) give the saints and the world to Jesus,(Jh. 17:6) and (d) show the universe that Jesus is His equal – that Jesus is Almighty God just as the Father is Almighty God. (Jh. 5:22; Rev.14:7; 11:17) Incidentally, this last item explains why the last book in the Bible is called “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.”

The price for the redemption of sinners is unbelievably high. Jesus had to forfeit His eternal life for sinners and cease to exist. Jesus humbled Himself on the day that sin began by becoming a subject (a son) of the Father.( Ps.2:7-12; Heb.1:5; 5;5) This is why Jesus is called, “The Son (subject) of God.” Four thousand years after Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus took a deeper step into humility. Jesus not only became a man, He became the object of endless ridicule. Later, Jesus stooped even lower. He died on the cross as a criminal. Jesus could give nothing more. He gave up everything He had, even His eternal life for our redemption. On the basis of Jesus’ sinless life and perfect conformity to His will, the Father “righteously” resurrected Jesus and took Him to Heaven. The Father coronated Jesus as man’s high priest.(Heb. 8:1) For the past 2,000 years, Jesus has presided over His church.

The humiliation and exaltation of Jesus is important to understand. When the power of the little horn was broken (1798), Jesus went before the Father and after being found worthy, He was promoted to the throne of God. Instead of sitting at the right hand of the Father as a prince and High Priest, Daniel 7:13,14 indicates that Jesus was coronated as a co-regent king with the Father and given sovereign power! In (Rev. 4&5) we learn that Jesus was also found worthy to receive the book sealed with seven seals (The Book of Life) when He was given the seven attributes of sovereign power.(Rev..5:12,13) Think about this. Sovereign power can only be bestowed once. Once a person has sovereign authority, how can he be given greater power?

The Father gave Jesus sovereign power in 1798 because Jesus began a new phase of work in Heaven that requires sovereign power.
The Father needed someone to (a) resolve the sin problem on Earth, (b) exonerate the character and government of God, and (c) judge each sinner compassionately. The worthiness of Jesus for this task is beyond question. He is the only person in the universe who can perfectly complete all three tasks.

Jesus began exercising sovereign power in 1798. He has to accomplish several objectives which the Father requires Him to do. For example, as sovereign king, Jesus is free to fulfill the requirements of each of the seven seals according to His own wisdom and authority. Jesus is free to glorify the Father according to His own wisdom and He is free to resolve many questions about God’s government that could not be answered otherwise. Jesus can pass eternal judgment on human beings as He desires. He is free to conduct Heaven’s business in whatever way He deems appropriate as long as He produces the objectives which the plan of redemption requires. At the end of the 1,000 years,(Rev. 20) Jesus will complete His special work. He will fully exonerate the character and ways of God and in turn, the Father will glorify Jesus before the universe as a co-eternal God. Jesus went into the depths of humiliation to save sinners from the second death and in the end, the Father will exalt Him as an equal!

At the end of the 1,000 years, Paul’s prediction will be fulfilled: “Then the end will come, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he [Jesus] must reign [from 1798] until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he [the Father] ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God [the Father] himself, who put everything under Christ. When he [Jesus has destroyed the works of sin] has done this, then the Son himself will [surrender His sovereign power and] be made subject to him [The Father] who put everything under him, so that God [the Father] may be all in all [the greatest of all].”(1 Cor.15:24-28)

 

[The Liturgist]

Bob, in response to your response here from post #82, as you understand it, Christ does not receive sovereign power until He returns and sets up His Kingdom. That would mean He wouldn't have it while He was conducting the pre-advent judgement, which we both understand was seated/started in 1798. I know that most christians have no knowledge of the significance of this court room event recorded in Dan. 7, and Rev. 4&5, and why Jesus was given sovereign power at that time.

I hope you and others whom my read these following post will give considerable thought to these insights into the workings of Christ to complete the plan of salvation from 1798 through time, until He usher in His eternal kingdom.

The Exaltation of Jesus
Many people do not appreciate the importance of Daniel 7:13,14 because they do not understand the process that Jesus voluntarily endured to redeem mankind. A book could be written on this amazing topic, but the essence of Christ’s humiliation and exaltation is this: When Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus went to the Father and offered to die in their place. Remember, Adam and Eve were to be executed on the day that they sinned.(Gen. 2:17)Even before the creation of life, the Father foreknew that sin would occur. Therefore, He had a plan of redemption that could be implemented when necessary. The Father would have implemented the plan of redemption for the rebellious angels had they been willing to repent, but they defiantly refused. Lucifer and the angels who followed him committed the unpardonable sin, making redemption impossible.

God’s plan to redeem mankind is intricate because He resolves several issues at the same time. It takes some effort to sort out these issues and understand their purposes. For example, God does not want sin to occur again, so God is resolving the current problem of sin in such a way that no one will ever want to sin again! God has allowed sin to mature because He wants everyone to see how the malignant curse imposes increasing decadence and degeneracy on each succeeding generation. God wants the universe to see what sinners will become and do; when sin is given enough time. God also wants the universe to understand that He is a God of love and His laws and actions always spring from love for His children. God wants the universe to understand that He will not use His foreknowledge to manipulate any outcome that is favorable to Himself. He also wants everyone to know that His subjects really do have the power of choice.

When Jesus went to the Father and offered to pay the price for their sin, the Father revealed the huge price that redemption required. I am sure that Jesus listened thoughtfully, and after hearing the terms required for man’s redemption, He submitted to three conditions. Whatever the Father wanted Jesus to become, He would become. Jesus agreed to become a man. Whatever the Father wanted Jesus to do, He would do. Jesus would live as an inferior among sinners (poor and having no human father), resist every temptation, die a horrible death, and cease to exist. Finally, whatever the Father wanted Jesus to say, He would say – no matter the consequences. Jesus agreed to speak the Father’s words
– no matter what.(Jh. 14:10,24)

When Jesus accepted these terms and conditions, the Father made a covenant with Jesus. (Ps. 2:7-12) If Jesus perfectly carried out the Father’s plan, the Father would (a) resurrect Jesus from the second death,(Jh. 10:17,18) (b) give Jesus authority over His church,(Eph. 1:22) (c) give the saints and the world to Jesus,(Jh. 17:6) and (d) show the universe that Jesus is His equal – that Jesus is Almighty God just as the Father is Almighty God. (Jh. 5:22; Rev.14:7; 11:17) Incidentally, this last item explains why the last book in the Bible is called “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.”

The price for the redemption of sinners is unbelievably high. Jesus had to forfeit His eternal life for sinners and cease to exist. Jesus humbled Himself on the day that sin began by becoming a subject (a son) of the Father.( Ps.2:7-12; Heb.1:5; 5;5) This is why Jesus is called, “The Son (subject) of God.” Four thousand years after Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus took a deeper step into humility. Jesus not only became a man, He became the object of endless ridicule. Later, Jesus stooped even lower. He died on the cross as a criminal. Jesus could give nothing more. He gave up everything He had, even His eternal life for our redemption. On the basis of Jesus’ sinless life and perfect conformity to His will, the Father “righteously” resurrected Jesus and took Him to Heaven. The Father coronated Jesus as man’s high priest.(Heb. 8:1) For the past 2,000 years, Jesus has presided over His church.

The humiliation and exaltation of Jesus is important to understand. When the power of the little horn was broken (1798), Jesus went before the Father and after being found worthy, He was promoted to the throne of God. Instead of sitting at the right hand of the Father as a prince and High Priest, Daniel 7:13,14 indicates that Jesus was coronated as a co-regent king with the Father and given sovereign power! In (Rev. 4&5) we learn that Jesus was also found worthy to receive the book sealed with seven seals (The Book of Life) when He was given the seven attributes of sovereign power.(Rev..5:12,13) Think about this. Sovereign power can only be bestowed once. Once a person has sovereign authority, how can he be given greater power?

The Father gave Jesus sovereign power in 1798 because Jesus began a new phase of work in Heaven that requires sovereign power.
The Father needed someone to (a) resolve the sin problem on Earth, (b) exonerate the character and government of God, and (c) judge each sinner compassionately. The worthiness of Jesus for this task is beyond question. He is the only person in the universe who can perfectly complete all three tasks.

Jesus began exercising sovereign power in 1798. He has to accomplish several objectives which the Father requires Him to do. For example, as sovereign king, Jesus is free to fulfill the requirements of each of the seven seals according to His own wisdom and authority. Jesus is free to glorify the Father according to His own wisdom and He is free to resolve many questions about God’s government that could not be answered otherwise. Jesus can pass eternal judgment on human beings as He desires. He is free to conduct Heaven’s business in whatever way He deems appropriate as long as He produces the objectives which the plan of redemption requires. At the end of the 1,000 years,(Rev. 20) Jesus will complete His special work. He will fully exonerate the character and ways of God and in turn, the Father will glorify Jesus before the universe as a co-eternal God. Jesus went into the depths of humiliation to save sinners from the second death and in the end, the Father will exalt Him as an equal!

At the end of the 1,000 years, Paul’s prediction will be fulfilled: “Then the end will come, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he [Jesus] must reign [from 1798] until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he [the Father] ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God [the Father] himself, who put everything under Christ. When he [Jesus has destroyed the works of sin] has done this, then the Son himself will [surrender His sovereign power and] be made subject to him [The Father] who put everything under him, so that God [the Father] may be all in all [the greatest of all].”(1 Cor.15:24-28)

This argument seems to me entirely incompatible with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity which @BobRyan and I share a belief in. Since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, coeternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, begotten, not made, and begotten of the Father before all worlds, and of one essence with the Father, who for our salvation became man by the Holy Spirit and the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the Nicene Creed, the idea of him not having sovereign power makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, having become incarnate without change, confusion, division or separation, any attempt to apply this to his humanity would be Nestorianism.

But as it stands the argument you present appears to deny the doctrine of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity and to be an expression of Arianism. How do you reconcile this with the Nicene Creed?

 

[Tigger Boy]

This argument seems to me entirely incompatible with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity which @BobRyan and I share a belief in. Since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, coeternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, begotten, not made, and begotten of the Father before all worlds, and of one essence with the Father, who for our salvation became man by the Holy Spirit and the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the Nicene Creed, the idea of him not having sovereign power makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, having become incarnate without change, confusion, division or separation, any attempt to apply this to his humanity would be Nestorianism.

But as it stands the argument you present appears to deny the doctrine of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity and to be an expression of Arianism. How do you reconcile this with the Nicene Creed?

Liturgist, first, I consider at this point my conversation with Bob is not an argument as you claim. We are exchanging our understanding of prophecy, not being disrespectful of the other. If you desire to be a part, please don’t make it into an argument, by being disrespectful as we see it demonstrated often on this forum.

The basis for your response as I understand it is, “the idea of Christ receiving sovereign power.” This is not an “idea” but a biblical fact as stated in (Daniel 7:14) NIV. I prefer the NIV, which uses the term, “sovereign power”, which you and other may not be comfortable with. Both the KJV and the NKJV and others uses these descriptives, “was given Him dominion, glory, and a Kingdom.” Is it not true that for a individual to receive a Kingdom, they too have dominion, along with glory, which results in that individual having the equivalent of sovereign power?

The word “dominion” means, “sovereignty or control; the territory of a sovereign or government”. So according to these definitions the NIV is a correct translation using a different word.

But one most not deny the court room event of both Dan. 7 and Rev. 4&5. Revealing that Jesus at that point in time is given something He had not possessed prior, because these texts inform us otherwise. So either we must except them or explain them away.

You have read some of my previous post in which I have stated, “the Bible does not contradict itself.” It is ones understanding of it that brings in the contradiction. You except the Nicene Creed, I am not comfortable with the belief that Jesus was “begotten of the Father.” It is my belief and that of many others that all three Gods which make up the trinity coexisted from the beginning, all possessing the same powers which only deity have. I'm quite sure Bob Ryan is in agreement with that since we are both Adventist.

The plan of salvation required Jesus to humbled Himself, of which He was willing, and to give up most of His divinity in order order to take on the un-fallen nature of the first Adam. (The miracles perform by Him during His ministry were through the Holy Spirit). In that nature He lived without sin, Therefore, He died as the perfect “Lamb of God”. But in dying He died the second death, “which is the penalty for sin”, of which there is no resurrection. He went to the cross in faith that the Father would resurrect Him. He had no assurance of this, only faith. With the divinity He had, He could have come down from the cross just by speaking the words. However, love for His creation overruled, and deity died for sinful man. That is the sum total of God’s love. The price for our salvation is priceless.

Did Jesus regain some of His powers as deity after He arose? Yes. Did He receive it all at that time? Not, according to our texts. Now it remains for each of us to choose what we believe, and I am sharing what I believe, as many do.

 

[BobRyan]

Prophecy 11
The Rise of Babylon Revelation 12:7-14:5
Beginning point in time: Resurrection Sunday, A.D. 30 Ending point in time: 1,265th day of the Great Tribulation.

Summary: This apocalyptic prophecy describes three types of kingdoms: Political, religious, and demonic. The first type lasted approximately 1,000 years (605 B.C.- 538 A.D.). During this time, political leaders governed world empires (represented by the four beasts in Daniel 7).

Certainly I agree that Rome - the 4th beast in Dan 7 - ran its course from 31 BC to around 538 AD.
And I agree that Babylon's rule starts around 605 BC. So then "the four beasts of Dan 7" as you point out.

The second type lasted 1,260 years (538- 1798). During this time, religious leaders dominated the nations of Europe (the little horn in Daniel 7).

agreed. That same 1260 year period is in Rev 11,12,13
And is also in Dan 7

The third and final type of kingdom will last 42 months and a demon will dominate it. This progression speaks volumes.

The final kingdom will have two phases. During Phase I, (the beast from the sea) Lucifer will achieve an important objective through the world’s religious and political leaders. After the first four trumpets demolish the infrastructures of Earth and one forth of mankind has been killed, (Rev. 6:7,8) the whole world

Ok but this goes beyond the Dan 7 details that are the focus of this thread.

will be in a state of panic and trauma. The devil will seize the moment to bring the whole world under the jurisdiction of one government. The book of Revelation calls this government Babylon. To appease God’s wrath, the leaders of the world will unite in a common effort to eliminate the sinful behaviors they believe made God angry. Once this union becomes functional, the devil will inspire the leaders of Babylon to create and implement “sin-less” laws to appease God’s wrath. Because the world will be very fearful of God, these laws will seem “reasonable and appropriate,” but they will quickly put God’s saints in a dire situation. The leaders of Babylon will not realize, at first, the unintended consequences of their laws. The laws of Babylon will stand in direct opposition to the laws of God. Lucifer’s objective during Phase I is to identify and punish all who choose to obey the eternal gospel. Civil authorities, like police officers or militia in each locality, will enforce the laws of Babylon. They will do as they are commanded (even after many within their ranks realize that what they are doing is wrong) for fear of losing their job and/or being punished by their commanders.

Phase II (the image to the first beast) will begin when Lucifer physically appears on Earth with his angels. John describes the physical appearing of the devil in three different places throughout the book of Revelation1 and each reference reveals a new dimension about this wily foe. Masquerading as Almighty God, Lucifer will betray the leadership of Babylon so he can establish a counterfeit theocracy during the sixth trumpet. The devil will abolish all the religions and governments of the world. During Phase II, there will be one lord, one faith, and one baptism; a one-world-church-state. For a short time, the devil will rule over the world as king of kings and lord of lords. Everyone will do as he says or die.

Prophecy 11 describes the transition of Lucifer from an invisible state to a visible state. The devil will appear physically as a majestic being wearing a glorious garment of brilliant light! (2 Cor. 11:14) Jesus permits the devil to appear so that mankind can observe his words and actions, in the same way the Father permitted Jesus to appear so mankind could observe the God head. Because Lucifer is evil incarnate, even a wicked person will learn for himself that Lucifer is a grossly evil super power.

This prophecy begins on Resurrection Sunday and it reaches to the time when the 144,000 ascend on the 1,265th day of the Great Tribulation. God has given us this prophecy because He wants us to study and anticipate Lucifer’s actions even though he is currently invisible. The devil is extremely clever and powerful. The world has not seen anything that even remotely compares with the physical appearing of Lucifer. He will come down from the sky, attended by millions of demons (fallen angels). They will be very large in stature, perhaps fifteen feet tall.(1 Kings 6:25) They will physically dwarf the people of Earth and worse, guns and artillery cannot kill them. The whole world will find out that human beings are no match for fallen angels. Lucifer will take over the world and no one can thwart him.

Introduction: This prophecy consists of five events that occur in chronological order.

The devil is cast out of Heaven (verses 7-12)
The devil persecutes the woman for 1,260 years (verses 13-16)
The devil wages war on the remnant of the woman (verses 12:17-13:10)
The devil physically appears, sets up his theocracy (the image to the first beast) and implements the mark of the beast (verses 13:11-18)
The 144,000 celebrate in a victory ceremony in Heaven (verses 14:1-14:5)

The coming victory celebration of the 144,000 may not seem to
be “all that important” today, but a day is coming when their victory celebration will serve as a powerful beacon during a very depressing time. During the sixth trumpet, Lucifer will appear to meet his objectives. He will abolish the religions and governments of the world, kill a third of mankind, and set up a counterfeit theocracy. Even more distressing, many of the remnant of the woman (the saints) will be killed and most, if not all, of the 144,000 will also be martyrs. Thankfully, this dismal situation is not the end of this story! Victory day will surely come. When the remaining saints see the 144,000 resurrected and taken to Heaven, the saints will be overjoyed! When wicked murderers see the 144,000 taken to Heaven, they will become terrified and panic stricken. The resurrection and ascension of the 144,000 is pivotal in this story because it marks the end of Lucifer’s success. After Jesus gathers the “ first fruits” to Heaven, Jesus will methodically destroy Babylon and the wicked with the seven bowls of justice. Jesus will avenge the suffering of His saints.(Rev. 18: 5,6)

After reading this introduction, consider reading through the prophecy and see if it makes more sense just as it reads.

I will take some time to read your discussion of Rev 12 - but since it exceeds the scope of details in Dan 7 - I am not addressing it here.

Bob, it is my prayer that after considering these three post, that you begin to realize the importance of knowing the beginning and ending of each prophecy, so a proper understand of it can be realized. Too, that the persecution the world will face during closing events will not come from the papacy, but rather the physical appearance of Satan, the “ANTICHRIST,” the man of sin, and his angles.

No doubt the fake second coming event you are talking about is in Rev 13. Notice that the fake second coming is in Matt 24, it is in Luke as well but it is not in the Gospel of John since John put it in as an entire chapter in Rev 13 prior to writing his gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I'm posting this parable at this time, because maybe your a little down at this time, because of my recent post. And I pray this is the case, what it says to me is the Holy Spirit is speaking to you.

actually my time has been consumed with a funeral event for someone in my local church. And I do agree with most if not all of your prior post where you are commenting on what is in the Rev 12 text, so no complaints from me regarding the part that comes right out of the Bible.

But I have not had time to go through part of your Rev 12 post. Will comment on that later.

I pray you will see yourself in this parable and understand our natural reactions when we come face to face with progressive truths, during our spiritual journey.

I am always happy to find that our understanding of truth is unfolding.

The Parable of the Math Teacher

Once upon a time, there was a math teacher who surrendered his life to the Lord. Later, he felt called to serve as a missionary in a foreign land. Eventually, he was invited to teach math in a college in a distant city called Overspent. During the first week of college algebra, the teacher discovered
a puzzling situation. His students could not solve a single math problem correctly. In fact, all of the students gave identical answers for each math problem that he gave them. He asked the students to explain how they entered college – given the fact they did not have the skills necessary to resolve basic math problems. The students said their high school teachers did not require them to work through math problems because highly educated and spiritually guided math teachers long ago had solved all math problems and all that they needed to do was to memorize the answers. The teacher was shocked.

yep. The way you hear that today - is that some folks insist that only the traditions of the past can be consulted. I prefer to just let the Bible speak for itself.

The next day, the teacher set out to remedy the problem. He put this equation on the board: 3c + 5 = 20. He asked the students to solve for c. All of the students reported that c was equal to 3. When the teacher asked how they arrived at 3, they said they had always been taught that the variable c always equals 3.

yep - instead of working through the problem , they report what they were told. That is how many christians cling to the mistakes of the past even in cases where the obvious answer is sitting right in front of them in the text.

Jesus complained about that very thing in Mark 7:7-13