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Why does a good God allow pain and suffering to exist in this world?

Neogaia777

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@Neogaia777 , you need to stop and take a good hard look at yourself. You're being offended. You're responding overly emotionally. As a Christian who's supposedly patient and understanding, and cares about others, these are two things that you shouldn't do.

As for my being a hypocrite, let me remind you of something that I told you over in the 'Free will and determinism' thread.



This isn't hypocrisy on my part... it's me doing exactly what I said that I'd do. If you take one side of an argument my little brain is going to do the absolute best that it can to argue the other side. It doesn't mean that I think that those arguments are true. As for you being cool with it... well that seems to need a little work.

So until you can get your emotions under control perhaps I should refrain from engaging with you.
So, are you saying you don't actually believe that any kind of super or other natural is not or was not 100% ever possible ever? Or you're just trying to argue the other side of it for the sake of argument? Or just "what" exactly?

I'll try to be a little bit less emotional/passionate about this if I can understand you a little bit better, ok. But just please help me understand you a little bit better, ok. Because otherwise, I still am passionate, and will remain passionate, and still do care about some things, ok.

Much thanks.

God Bless.

And it doesn't mean I hate you or don't like you if I do get a little bit emotional or passionate about it sometimes, ok. Just so you know that about me, ok.

But you also just got to know about me also, is that the way I argue sometimes, is to try to provoke an emotion, or get an emotional/passionate effect sometimes, ok.

It's nothing you should take personally if I do get a little bit emotional/passionate about it sometimes, ok.

I don't see how you/me/we can ever really truly care about anything sometimes, if you/me/we don't ever get emotional or passionate about it sometimes, ok.

God Bless.
 
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Ace777

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So in your view, death existed before the fall?
Yes, there have been 6 extinctions just like there are six days of creation in the Bible.
According to the bible, there were no humans before Adam and Eve.
In Genesis 1 God created mankind around 200 million years ago. Adam and Eve were real individuals that were the beginning of civilization 6,000 years ago in ancient mesopotamia. Jesus HAD to be a descendant of Eve to pay the price for her sin, transgression. Mary had to be a descendant of Eve for the Bible to be true. The word "offspring" is very important here. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Adam as "the first man.":
Genesis 1:26 says
אָדָ֗ם
Genesis 2:7 says
הָֽאָדָ֗ם
Clearly you can see that is not the same word.

According to the bible
There is no contradiction between Science and the Bible. Also the Bible does NOT contradict itself. Many people have tried to show me a contradiction and they have failed.
47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man [is] the Lord from heaven.”
Exactly, that is what I just said.

The Hebrew word for "breath of life" is nephesh, which can also mean "life," "person," or "very self". It refers to the instinct in the nostrils of all living beings that gives them life. In the Bible, Genesis 2:7, 7:22, and 6:17, and Ecclesiastes 3:19 all say that God gave humans and animals this life breath as a gift.

We do not see nephesh in Genesis chapter one.

Romans 5 14 says the second Adam in the Garden of Eden is a type of christ. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Adam chapter one was given the whole earth. Adam chapter two was given the Garden of Eden. Noah saved the plants and animals in Eden, that we read about in the Bible. Science calls this a biodiverse eco system. Science uses the word Adam, Eve and Eden for a reason. Because Science confirms that our Bible is accurate and true.

1722093353806.png


 
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Ace777

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Adam chapter one was given the whole earth. Adam chapter two was given the Garden of Eden.
This is why there is suffering in the world because all of creation is going to be redeemed. God has to do a work through us to save the world.

Romans 8 22 "We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."

One man sinned, one man paid a price for that sin.
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
 
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Neogaia777

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So, are you saying you don't actually believe that any kind of super or other natural is not or was not 100% ever possible ever? Or you're just trying to argue the other side of it for the sake of argument? Or just "what" exactly?

I'll try to be a little bit less emotional/passionate about this if I can understand you a little bit better, ok. But just please help me understand you a little bit better, ok. Because otherwise, I still am passionate, and will remain passionate, and still do care about some things, ok.

Much thanks.

God Bless.

And it doesn't mean I hate you or don't like you if I do get a little bit emotional or passionate about it sometimes, ok. Just so you know that about me, ok.

But you also just got to know about me also, is that the way I argue sometimes, is to try to provoke an emotion, or emotional/passionate effect sometimes, ok.

It's nothing you should take personally if I do get a little bit emotional/passionate about it sometimes, ok.

I don't see how you/me/we can ever really truly care about anything sometimes, if you/me/we don't ever get emotional or passionate about it sometimes, ok.

God Bless.
@partinobodycular

And another thing you gotta know about me is, for one, I'm not like you, and you said that was perfectly a-ok with you, etc, and then for another, if you are currently on the side of an argument that I find completely ridiculous right now, then I am going to try to show both you and everyone else just how ridiculous I think it is in any way that I know how or by any means that I can, ok. It's just a part of who I am, etc. But it's not personal, ok. And I swear to you that, ok.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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@partinobodycular

And another thing you gotta know about me is, for one, I'm not like you, and you said that was perfectly a-ok with you, etc, and then for another, if you are currently on the side of an argument that I find completely ridiculous right now, then I am going to try to show both you and everyone else just how ridiculous I think it is in any way that I know how or by any means that I can, ok. It's just a part of who I am, etc. But it's not personal, ok. And I swear to you that, ok.

Take Care/God Bless.
Logic and reason are not the only tools in my toolbox IOW's, ok.

But it's nothing you should take personally, ok.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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Logic and reason are not the only tools in my toolbox IOW's, ok.

But it's nothing you should take personally, ok.

God Bless.
@partinobodycular

And just for the record, I found that anyone who is a solipsist, and who's general rule is not to assume things, or say they can be 100% sure about anything, to then say that they were 100% sure about something, to be very much hypocritical and ridiculous, etc. And so I was coming against/trying to show the ridiculousness of that, etc.

And then secondly, the specific argument that the super or other natural could not ever be possible for anyone in history ever (in this case Jesus and some of his apostles/disciples in the Bible specifically) I also found to be completely ridiculous, especially coming from a solipsist, etc, and so I was also coming against/trying to show the ridiculousness of that, etc.

And also the ridiculousness that the reports we have of them doing the super or other natural, or any of that ever happening to them or with them or around them, etc, only being reported that way because they were, well, you used the words embellished or exaggerated, etc, but would in all actuality, would have had to have been almost all completely made up or invented or fabricated, etc. Anyway, I found that argument to be completely ridiculous also, and so I was also coming against that, etc.

Sorry if I got too emotional or passionate about it, but sometimes that is the only way to point out the comepletely hypocritical or totally ridiculous, etc.

Or it is sometimes at least one of the ways I sometimes choose to confront it sometimes anyway, etc.

Try not to take it too personal, ok.

Because I certainly don't at all hate you at all, ok.

You'll see when we interact some more at other times and in other places on here, ok.

I don't like to hold grudges. It's not good for the soul, etc. And so I don't do that, ok.

I very much move on when the current argument is settled or is over, etc.

And any future arguments we might get into, or might have, nothing is ever held over or transferred from the previous one, ok.

But this is a debate forum, and we will sometimes get into some arguments on here, and it will sometimes get heated sometimes, but once the current argument is over, I don't hold grudges, and nothing is ever transferred over to the next one after that, ok.

Oh, and about some of my behavior not being entirely "christian" in your view, etc, loving, caring, patient, kind, and all of that, etc, I would just like to remind you, that one of the most loving, caring, patient, kind, etc, things I can do for you, and for any of you, etc, is to bring you all to a place where you 100% fully believe in, and fully acknowledge God and Jesus Christ, as God, etc, which would also include a belief in the super or other natural, etc, and do that by any means necessary, or in any way that I can, etc.

So don't fault me for being willing to do that, ok.

God Bless.
 
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Larniavc

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Larniavc

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Larniavc

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partinobodycular

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So, are you saying you don't actually believe that any kind of super or other natural is not or was not 100% ever possible ever? Or you're just trying to argue the other side of it for the sake of argument? Or just "what" exactly?

All that I'm really saying is that "I Don't Know". Because I honestly don't. However, if someone is going to step up and say that they're absolutely certain that they're right... as @Bradskii did with determinism and free will, and you did with the miracle accounts, then I'm definitely going to take the other side, just out of general principles. If there's a position that needs defending then I'm more than willing to be the one to stand up and defend it. Whether it's free will, miracles, or LGBTQ. It's not me defending my own personal version of right and wrong, because that's not all that important, it's just me objecting to the idea that someone else is absolutely certain that they're right.

Perhaps I have a bit of 'advocatus diaboli' in me, but I'm always willing to defend that which others may believe to be undefendable.

Devil's Advocate
 
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Larniavc

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What scripture are you talking about: "free will"?
So you said:

"You can ask this question as many times as you want and the answer is going to always be the same. Because He gives us free will. We have the freedom to choose if we are going to love God or not. Animals do not have that choice. Before Adam and Eve we did not have that choice. They had the breath of life in them. nephesh"

Do you see now?
 
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Larniavc

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Yes, there have been 6 extinctions just like there are six days of creation in the Bible.
And there are 6 sides on a six sided die!!! We're through the looking glass here, people.
 
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Neogaia777

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All that I'm really saying is that "I Don't Know". Because I honestly don't. However, if someone is going to step up and say that they're absolutely certain that they're right... as @Bradskii did with determinism and free will, and you did with the miracle accounts, then I'm definitely going to take the other side, just out of general principles. If there's a position that needs defending then I'm more than willing to be the one to stand up and defend it. Whether it's free will, miracles, or LGBTQ. It's not me defending my own personal version of right and wrong, because that's not all that important, it's just me objecting to the idea that someone else is absolutely certain that they're right.

Perhaps I have a bit of 'advocatus diaboli' in me, but I'm always willing to defend that which others may believe to be undefendable.

Devil's Advocate
Well, I thank you for trying to give me a better understanding, etc. And I think I do understand some of it maybe, etc.

Anyway, I'll see you later, or maybe in another argument, or around the rest of the forums again sometime, ok.

Take Care/God Bless.
 
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Ace777

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And there are 6 sides on a six sided die!!! We're through the looking glass here, people.
So what do you have to say about extinctions? I know I get distracted sometime. But you are quick to drift off of the subject also.
 
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Larniavc

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So what do you have to say about extinctions? I know I get distracted sometime. But you are quick to drift off of the subject also.
Extinctions occur when the environment changes and an organism is no longer able to maintain a viable population.

In the Great Dying for example approximately 251.9 million years ago over half of the then living Families of organism went extinct.

The Siberian Traps continually spewed out sulphur and carbon dioxide making a run away green house effect and the seas became too acidic to support all but the most resilient organism.

The Permian extinction was so vast it was actually multiple extinction events back to back (geologically speaking). Depending how you look at it over the last half billion years there have been five to twenty significant decreases in biodiversity.

If I was pressed that’s what I would say about extinctions events. Periods of time over the last half billion years where the biodiversity dropped dramatically because of environmental change.
 
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Astrid

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I feel everything God made is just the way He wanted it. He created animals that can think and choose. The choices we have made are evident today.
The story is that god made e rrything good,
but 2 people disappointed him so he changed
everything to bad.

If the various hideos diseases, deformities snc other horrors that beset man and beast are just as he wants things, this god is quite the guy.
 
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Astrid

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I want to address those like @partinobodycular who think the NT could have been "embellished" or maybe completely changed to the point of being completely made up back in very, very close to Bible times.

And I was in error earlier about the earliest copies that we have, but was thinking of the time they were reported to have been written, which was at the the time that many of Jesus followers were still alive, etc, but the earliest copies that we have are from around the middle of the second century A.D. Which was long before the RCC, or when Christianity was accepted by the Roman government, or was recognized as being the religion of Rome, etc. This was still during a time of great persecution for a lot of Christians, and most of the believers were very common, very simple people at the time, etc.

The copies that we have are around 100 years or so from the actual events that they are reporting, and are believed not to have changed very much from the originals that were originally written around 50 to 100 years or so ago before that at the time, etc. Like I said, most of them were very simple folk and commoners at the time. Not people of high position or of great rank or wealth, or notoriety or repute, but just common simple folk, or regular people at the time.

Now, do you think these folk all got together and said "Let's change or alter what we have in order to make the story of Jesus even greater, or even more exaggerated/believable/unbelievable, and so we can use this to finally take a hold of or sieze great wealth and power and position, and control people since they will all be looking at us", etc, etc, etc, or anything like that at the time?

And if they did, then what do you think they also said? Maybe something like "Let's make up a story about Jesus feeding a lot of people supernaturally, or him walking on water during a storm, or calming a storm with the rest of his disciples in a boat, or make up a story about him and some of his apostles going up on a mountain, and Jesus being transfigured, and Moses and Elijah being there with him, and it being witnessed by some of his apostles that he took with him at the time? That would be really, really cool, and would make a lot of people worship Jesus more, right?"

Or maybe they also said or added "How about we make up a ton of stories and put them in there about him curing the sick, or supernaturally healing lepers (which was an incurable disease at the time) and him opening blind people's eyes so they could see, and opening up deaf people's ears so they could hear, and restoring the paralyzed so they could move or walk again, or supernaturally delivering people from demons, and everything of that kind, etc. And lets just make up a bunch of stuff like this and rewrite what we have or put them all in there of every kind", etc. That would be really cool right? I mean, we could get a lot of power with it, and control people with it, and no one would be the wiser, right?"

Do you really think these common simple folk did this? Or were even capable of such a thing of any kind? These people were very much downtrodden, and were being stepped on and crushed at the time, and this was some of the furthest things from their mind at the time. Their leaders of their individual churches who could have done these things were just common simple folk with no great power or wealth or high position also at the time, and just wouldn't/couldn't have done this at the time.

Anyway, if you believe any of this, or anything like this, I might ask you just what it is you are smoking right now at the time, etc? It's preposterous to think these very simple people did this, etc. Most of them were not even capable of the kinds of things that you are accusing them of at the time, etc.

Or maybe you doubt the previous people's memories, who were the original followers of Jesus at the time? But even if their memories were not the greatest, it is highly, highly unlikely that these events could have been all just made up by the people who were here/there with him at the time, and many who were personal eyewitnesses/followers of him at the time.

You can't make this stuff up, ok, so you need to just accept it for being pretty much very, very close to what it is or was at the time, etc. And that means some of it at least had to have been real or true or actual at least, and whoever does not believe that, is probably smoking something, or is probably high on some kind of illegal substance right now at the time.

And in closing, I would like to ask you just exactly how you think it is that these things were exaggerated or embellished at the time? There would have to be a lot of just 100% completely fabricated made up lies to be exaggerated or embellished to the point that you are talking about at the time. And this would have had to be done by some of the original followers of Jesus at the time, etc.

So, please give some specific examples of how you think this specifically happened at the time?

You can't make this stuff up, etc, which is probably why they found it so very much important to make sure it was all written down at the time, etc.

Jesus was a real man who really did exist back then in those times, and who really did do or perform at least some actual bonafide, very, very real supernatural acts or miracles at the time, etc.

That is what 100% honesty tells us anyway, etc.

And his power/abilities at the time are beyond explaining other than the existence of a supernatural being or God at the time, etc.

That is the only real honest conclusion anyone can make about this if they are being truly honest, etc.

Unless you can tell me very, very specifically how it could have happened or been otherwise, etc.

And I want specifics of just how exactly some of the very specific things in it were all fabricated or embellished to the point of not at all being true at the time, and not just some general statements of such at the time, etc.

God Bless.
If that's what it takes to talk yourself into something
 
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Laodicean60

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The story is that god made e rrything good,
but 2 people disappointed him so he changed
everything to bad.

If the various hideos diseases, deformities snc other horrors that beset man and beast are just as he wants things, this god is quite the guy.
He did warn them about the tree of good and evil. What happened I don't have a clue because the story of creation in my opinion has been passed down from ancient people verbally till writing came on the scene. I wouldn't blame God for him not giving us heaven on earth.

I blame mankind for the most hideous diseases that plague the world today. The deformities are mutated genes from evolution maybe caused by environmental factors.
 
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