Why does a good God allow pain and suffering to exist in this world?

[Laodicean60]

Interesting that Jesus was not from the blood line of Adam,

Doesn't Luke's gospel show Jesus to Adam?

 

[Laodicean60]

The term "creation" is a religious term and not a scientific one. Science says that humans and all life species on our planet emerged through Darwinian processes. For the sake of argument, I say that science says we were "created" by natural processes.

I would say yes "created" is a religious term in both examples.

 

[d taylor]

Doesn't Luke's gospel show Jesus to Adam?

-​

That was through Joseph who was not actually Jesus' father but i would guess an adopted father.

Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

 

[Laodicean60]

there were no humans before Adam and Eve.

Who did Cain marry it seems there were others before Adam.

 

[Larniavc]

After God breathed life into them. The Hebrew word for "breath of life" is nephesh (נפש‎). It can also mean "life", "person", or "very self". In the Bible, nephesh is used to describe the instinct for "breath of life" in the nostrils of all living beings, but not for plants or bugs. It's also connected with lifeblood.

This is why Noah saved all he did on the Ark.

What does that have to do with their free will or lack thereof?

 

[Laodicean60]

-​

That was through Joseph who was not actually Jesus' father but i would guess an adopted father.

Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Thx, Maybe the reason Luke included Joseph was because lineage is passed down through the father.

 

[Larniavc]

Doesn't Luke's gospel show Jesus to Adam?

But Jesus was not Joseph's son; in a biological manner. They shared no genes in common.

 

[Larniavc]

Who did Cain marry it seems there were others before Adam.

Seems like the obvious answer is one of his sisters.

 

[David Lamb]

Who did Cain marry it seems there were others before Adam.

We are not told, but it presumably was a relative.

 

[Laodicean60]

God is all good but everything he made is bad?

I feel everything God made is just the way He wanted it. He created animals that can think and choose. The choices we have made are evident today.

 

[Laodicean60]

We are not told, but it presumably was a relative.

Then how can we assume that Adam was the first man? Why weren't the other relatives mentioned? Cain even built cities didn't he, so there were a lot of relatives.

 

[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

Hello, I have known these forums for a few years, but I haven't accessed them for a long time and I noticed that things have changed around here.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss this topic. If it's not, I apologize and ask the moderators to move it to the appropriate forum if this is not the right place for this kind of topic. I apologize in advance if I break any forum rules. And I also apologize for the long post below.

I consider myself a pantheist and a freethinker, but I really want to regain my former faith in Christianity. Yes, I was raised in a Christian family, my whole family is Christian, and I used to be a Christian as well. I started losing faith in the Christian God after I lost my friend to cancer several years ago. The ancient philosophical and theological problem of evil is perhaps one of the biggest and main challenges preventing me from returning to Christianity. When I was a Christian, I was taught in church that God is All-Powerful, All-Loving, Perfect, a God who hears our prayers and cares for us, an Omnipotent God. If this God really cares about us, why did He allow my friend to lose the battle against liver cancer? This disease made him wither and suffer in such a tragic and inhumane way, even after almost two years of treatments and many prayers, but none of that helped, he lost the battle and passed away. I considered him like a brother. This made me question the goodness of the Christian God and my faith.

There was a moment when I came across Epicurus' trilemma, which presents the following dilemma attributed to this philosopher, saying:

If God is unable to prevent evil, then He is not all-powerful.

If God is not willing to prevent evil, then He is not all-good.

If God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

This was also one of the reasons that made me question the goodness of the Christian God. And several other questions related to evil and suffering arose, such as these:

Why does God allow diseases like Tay-Sachs, which affect the neurons of some children, causing them to live short lives and experience horrible suffering? Why allow hepatic carcinoma that killed my friend, pancreatic cancer, lung cancer, and many other forms of cancer that often cause so much pain and terrible suffering in patients, many of whom are also young children? Why does leprosy exist, which, if untreated, rots the flesh and causes fingers to fall off? Why do such horrible congenital defects exist, such as epidermodysplasia verruciformis, cyclopia, ethmocephaly, craniopagus parasiticus, epidermolysis bullosa, anencephaly, progeria, spina bifida (and many other congenital diseases listed here https://medlineplus.gov/geneticsbirthdefects.html)? If you are sensitive to strong images, do not search for them on Google. The number of genetic and congenital errors that can occur is almost infinite. Why do mental and behavioral disorders exist, causing such horrible suffering that many people wish they had never been born, preferring to take their own lives, some even losing their sanity and discernment? Moreover, there are diseases like Alzheimer's, sickle cell anemia, autism, color blindness, diabetes, and countless other diseases that kill millions and millions of people, including babies and young children. Why does God allow natural disasters that have killed many people like these here ? Why do we have parasitic infections like malaria, dengue, Chagas disease, tetanus, lice, ticks, Loa loa, brain-eating amoebas, and many others? Why create a world with predation where animals cruelly kill each other to survive and where animals also suffer pain and agony? Why create a world where millions of women and small children were killed in Auschwitz, Treblinka, and other extermination camps, and also murdered by SS soldiers and the Einsatzgruppen during World War II? Why? Just because they were Jews? Why create a world where, besides the Holocaust, other events like the Stalinist Holodomor and other genocides and crimes against humanity have occurred and still occur? A world where women and children are mistreated, assaulted, exploited, used in sex trafficking, mutilated, raped, and killed in such cruel ways? A world where millions and millions of humans have been killed by wars, famines, and plagues? A world where misogyny, religious intolerance, homophobia, racism, chauvinism, fascism, rampant capitalism, extreme poverty, theft, and hunger exist, etc.? A world where people experience hatred, violence, indifference, hypocrisy, lies, and rancor? A world where some people are so selfish and full of themselves, proud, vain, mean, hateful, arrogant, abusive, and narcissistic?

And this is just what comes to mind at the moment.

I know that this is a question that has been asked and pondered by great philosophers and theologians over millennia, but despite that, I would like to hear the perspective of the Christians in this forum.

A long time ago, I read a post that @ViaCrucis (CryptoLuther) wrote in this forum several years ago quoting the philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, who said that 'to believe in God, a leap of faith must be made.' I'm sorry, but unfortunately, I can't find that post anymore. Although I found this very interesting, I can't make the leap to faith and embrace Christianity. I feel that doing so would be abandoning reason. Sometimes Christians say that God is beyond reason or that His plans are mysterious and incomprehensible to our limited minds. If God often doesn't want us to use reason and critical thinking to question His actions, then why did He make us thinking and rational beings? And why is He so mysterious and sinister? If we cannot even know God's plans, actions, and mysteries, then why assume that He really cares about us? I simply wish I could at least begin to understand in some logical way why the Christian God, with all the attributes He has, allows these terrible and tragic things to happen to us and to the rest of His creation that He claims to love so much.

Why does a God who is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and good allow all this suffering and pain that we see and experience in this world?

Thank you for reading until here.

Why? Because God is infinite and we are not. Because God is sovereign over HIS creation and we are not. Because God has given all a conscience to know God and to do HIS will but all do not. Because God calls on all to repent and follow HIM and all do not. God has one standard and none of us meet it, namely: absolute perfection. If you love God and have faith in God you will suffer evil for HIS name's sake. Why? Because God has said so, and God is sovereign. Peace and blessings to you and yours. Amen amen.

 

[Laodicean60]

Seems like the obvious answer is one of his sisters.

Gross! I'd rather marry a cousin.

 

[Laodicean60]

I think we have it all wrong and backward. Pain and suffering may be our greatest opportunities.

Amen, My wild living, drugs, and alcohol created suffering for my family and myself. The worst feeling in the world is needing a fix. To me, my lifestyle was good till it was bad. I tried to quit once having kids then the greatest opportunity was to call on God to save me from myself. I had the luxury of suffering, because of my free will, without suffering why call out to God?

 

[Neogaia777]

I want to address those like @partinobodycular who think the NT could have been "embellished" or maybe completely changed to the point of being completely made up back in very, very close to Bible times.

And I was in error earlier about the earliest copies that we have, but was thinking of the time they were reported to have been written, which was at the the time that many of Jesus followers were still alive, etc, but the earliest copies that we have are from around the middle of the second century A.D. Which was long before the RCC, or when Christianity was accepted by the Roman government, or was recognized as being the religion of Rome, etc. This was still during a time of great persecution for a lot of Christians, and most of the believers were very common, very simple people at the time, etc.

The copies that we have are around 100 years or so from the actual events that they are reporting, and are believed not to have changed very much from the originals that were originally written around 50 to 100 years or so ago before that at the time, etc. Like I said, most of them were very simple folk and commoners at the time. Not people of high position or of great rank or wealth, or notoriety or repute, but just common simple folk, or regular people at the time.

Now, do you think these folk all got together and said "Let's change or alter what we have in order to make the story of Jesus even greater, or even more exaggerated/believable/unbelievable, and so we can use this to finally take a hold of or sieze great wealth and power and position, and control people since they will all be looking at us", etc, etc, etc, or anything like that at the time?

And if they did, then what do you think they also said? Maybe something like "Let's make up a story about Jesus feeding a lot of people supernaturally, or him walking on water during a storm, or calming a storm with the rest of his disciples in a boat, or make up a story about him and some of his apostles going up on a mountain, and Jesus being transfigured, and Moses and Elijah being there with him, and it being witnessed by some of his apostles that he took with him at the time? That would be really, really cool, and would make a lot of people worship Jesus more, right?"

Or maybe they also said or added "How about we make up a ton of stories and put them in there about him curing the sick, or supernaturally healing lepers (which was an incurable disease at the time) and him opening blind people's eyes so they could see, and opening up deaf people's ears so they could hear, and restoring the paralyzed so they could move or walk again, or supernaturally delivering people from demons, and everything of that kind, etc. And lets just make up a bunch of stuff like this and rewrite what we have or put them all in there of every kind", etc. That would be really cool right? I mean, we could get a lot of power with it, and control people with it, and no one would be the wiser, right?"

Do you really think these common simple folk did this? Or were even capable of such a thing of any kind? These people were very much downtrodden, and were being stepped on and crushed at the time, and this was some of the furthest things from their mind at the time. Their leaders of their individual churches who could have done these things were just common simple folk with no great power or wealth or high position also at the time, and just wouldn't/couldn't have done this at the time.

Anyway, if you believe any of this, or anything like this, I might ask you just what it is you are smoking right now at the time, etc? It's preposterous to think these very simple people did this, etc. Most of them were not even capable of the kinds of things that you are accusing them of at the time, etc.

Or maybe you doubt the previous people's memories, who were the original followers of Jesus at the time? But even if their memories were not the greatest, it is highly, highly unlikely that these events could have been all just made up by the people who were here/there with him at the time, and many who were personal eyewitnesses/followers of him at the time.

You can't make this stuff up, ok, so you need to just accept it for being pretty much very, very close to what it is or was at the time, etc. And that means some of it at least had to have been real or true or actual at least, and whoever does not believe that, is probably smoking something, or is probably high on some kind of illegal substance right now at the time.

And in closing, I would like to ask you just exactly how you think it is that these things were exaggerated or embellished at the time? There would have to be a lot of just 100% completely fabricated made up lies to be exaggerated or embellished to the point that you are talking about at the time. And this would have had to be done by some of the original followers of Jesus at the time, etc.

So, please give some specific examples of how you think this specifically happened at the time?

You can't make this stuff up, etc, which is probably why they found it so very much important to make sure it was all written down at the time, etc.

Jesus was a real man who really did exist back then in those times, and who really did do or perform at least some actual bonafide, very, very real supernatural acts or miracles at the time, etc.

That is what 100% honesty tells us anyway, etc.

And his power/abilities at the time are beyond explaining other than the existence of a supernatural being or God at the time, etc.

That is the only real honest conclusion anyone can make about this if they are being truly honest, etc.

Unless you can tell me very, very specifically how it could have happened or been otherwise, etc.

And I want specifics of just how exactly some of the very specific things in it were all fabricated or embellished to the point of not at all being true at the time, and not just some general statements of such at the time, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

I want to address those like @partinobodycular who think the NT could have been "embellished" or maybe completely changed to the point of being completely made up back in very, very close to Bible times.

And I was in error earlier about the earliest copies that we have, but was thinking of the time they were reported to have been written, which was at the the time that many of Jesus followers were still alive, etc, but the earliest copies that we have are from around the middle of the second century A.D. Which was long before the RCC, or when Christianity was accepted by the Roman government, or was recognized as being the religion of Rome, etc. This was still during a time of great persecution for a lot of Christians, and most of the believers were very common, very simple people at the time, etc.

The copies that we have are around 100 years or so from the actual events that they are reporting, and are believed not to have changed very much from the originals that were originally written around 50 to 100 years or so ago before that at the time, etc. Like I said, most of them were very simple folk and commoners at the time. Not people of high position or of great rank or wealth, or notoriety or repute, but just common simple folk, or regular people at the time.

Now, do you think these folk all got together and said "Let's change or alter what we have in order to make the story of Jesus even greater, or even more exaggerated/believable/unbelievable, and so we can use this to finally take a hold of or sieze great wealth and power and position, and control people since they will all be looking at us", etc, etc, etc, or anything like that at the time?

And if they did, then what do you think they also said? Maybe something like "Let's make up a story about Jesus feeding a lot of people supernaturally, or him walking on water during a storm, or calming a storm with the rest of his disciples in a boat, or make up a story about him and some of his apostles going up on a mountain, and Jesus being transfigured, and Moses and Elijah being there with him, and it being witnessed by some of his apostles that he took with him at the time? That would be really, really cool, and would make a lot of people worship Jesus more, right?"

Or maybe they also said or added "How about we make up a ton of stories and put them in there about him curing the sick, or supernaturally healing lepers (which was an incurable disease at the time) and him opening blind people's eyes so they could see, and opening up deaf people's ears so they could hear, and restoring the paralyzed so they could move or walk again, or supernaturally delivering people from demons, and everything of that kind, etc. And lets just make up a bunch of stuff like this and rewrite what we have or put them all in there of every kind", etc. That would be really cool right? I mean, we could get a lot of power with it, and control people with it, and no one would be the wiser, right?"

Do you really think these common simple folk did this? Or were even capable of such a thing of any kind? These people were very much downtrodden, and were being stepped on and crushed at the time, and this was some of the furthest things from their mind at the time. Their leaders of their individual churches who could have done these things were just common simple folk with no great power or wealth or high position also at the time, and just wouldn't/couldn't have done this at the time.

Anyway, if you believe any of this, or anything like this, I might ask you just what it is you are smoking right now at the time, etc? It's preposterous to think these very simple people did this, etc. Most of them were not even capable of the kinds of things that you are accusing them of at the time, etc.

Or maybe you doubt the previous people's memories, who were the original followers of Jesus at the time? But even if their memories were not the greatest, it is highly, highly unlikely that these events could have been all just made up by the people who were here/there with him at the time, and many who were personal eyewitnesses/followers of him at the time.

You can't make this stuff up, ok, so you need to just accept it for being pretty much very, very close to what it is or was at the time, etc. And that means some of it at least had to have been real or true or actual at least, and whoever does not believe that, is probably smoking something, or is probably high on some kind of illegal substance right now at the time.

And in closing, I would like to ask you just exactly how you think it is that these things were exaggerated or embellished at the time? There would have to be a lot of just 100% completely fabricated made up lies to be exaggerated or embellished to the point that you are talking about at the time. And this would have had to be done by some of the original followers of Jesus at the time, etc.

So, please give some specific examples of how you think this specifically happened at the time?

You can't make this stuff up, etc, which is probably why they found it so very much important to make sure it was all written down at the time, etc.

Jesus was a real man who really did exist back then in those times, and who really did do or perform at least some actual bonafide, very, very real supernatural acts or miracles at the time, etc.

That is what 100% honesty tells us anyway, etc.

And his power/abilities at the time are beyond explaining other than the existence of a supernatural being or God at the time, etc.

That is the only real honest conclusion anyone can make about this if they are being truly honest, etc.

Unless you can tell me very, very specifically how it could have happened or been otherwise, etc.

And I want specifics of just how exactly some of the very specific things in it were all fabricated or embellished to the point of not at all being true at the time, and not just some general statements of such at the time, etc.

God Bless.

And Jesus wasn't some kind of special "magician" either, and did not make or cause his followers to believe some things by misdirection, or by deceiving or tricking theirs or everyone else's eyes, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

John 10:37-38- "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

John 14:11- "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

John 10:37-38- "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

John 14:11- "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."

God Bless.

This (what we have reported about Jesus) is not some tall tale like the epic of Gilgamesh or something like that. Not the tale of some great warrior or hero or militarily conquering king, etc. But only of one who was very, very humble, and mostly regular like the rest of us, and who was a suffering servant, only with the exception of being able to do some supernatural things sometimes, because he was of or from God, or walked with God, etc, or at least, that was his claim, etc.

And things like this were not even close to being heard of at the time, etc. People didn't understand it or him, and still don't, etc. If he was so great, and had such great power, then why did he choose to suffer and die, etc. People still do not understand it now, etc. It is a mystery to them, etc. But nobody could have made this up, etc. Especially not the people who were living back then at that time, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Ace777]

What does that have to do with their free will or lack thereof?

What scripture are you talking about: "free will"?

 

[partinobodycular]

You're being a major hypocrite right now.

It's not a threat if you live by two different standards, and are only wanting to apply one of them to what you don't want to be true, or won't admit could possibly be true.

Or you are open to everything else, but are 100% closed to this.

@Neogaia777 , you need to stop and take a good hard look at yourself. You're being offended. You're responding overly emotionally. As a Christian who's supposedly patient and understanding, and cares about others, these are two things that you shouldn't do.

As for my being a hypocrite, let me remind you of something that I told you over in the 'Free will and determinism' thread.

Don't worry, nothing you do can offend me. Remember I'm a solipsist, I have absolutely no idea whether free will exists or not. It just happens that @Bradskii took one side of the debate, so I'll take the other, not because I think that it's true, but simply because I don't like it when people make assumptions, and in this particular instance Bradskii's making an assumption.

So don't worry, give me your best shot, but be warned, my little brain is gonna try to find a flaw in it. So if you're cool with it... then I'm cool with it.

This isn't hypocrisy on my part... it's me doing exactly what I said that I'd do. If you take one side of an argument my little brain is going to do the absolute best that it can to argue the other side. It doesn't mean that I think that those arguments are true. As for you being cool with it... well that seems to need a little work.

So until you can get your emotions under control perhaps I should refrain from engaging with you.