• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,783
5,670
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟362,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
@Vambram, as Valletta and I are Catholic and the fact that the Catholic church uses a Catechism, what does the Baptist church use as a guide for their denomination? I know that the Journal for Baptist Theology & Ministry is used somewhat amongst theologians. I have the 2009 edition on my computer, hooked up to a locally run, private AI, so I can chat with the document. Also, I have chatted with a smaller version of the Catholic Catechism and a book on 2000 years of Christian history.

Journal for Baptist Theology & Ministry (2009 Edition)
View attachment 352290
It is difficult for me to point to one document which the Baptist denomination uses as The guide to theology. There are more than a few Baptist theological seminaries.


However, Baptists do find several points of agreement amongst each other, amongst Evangelical Christians, as well as with Catholics. @Grip Docility does bring up a great point about 100% Bible. Baptists also believe that it is important to understand the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words within the manuscripts. Understanding the definitions of the words of the ancient languages are very often vitally important to learn a deeper, or more correct, understanding of the theology and doctrines in the Scriptures, in the Holy Bible.
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,699
25
WI
✟644,618.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is difficult for me to point to one document which the Baptist denomination uses as The guide to theology. There are more than a few Baptist theological seminaries.


However, Baptists do find several points of agreement amongst each other, amongst Evangelical Christians, as well as with Catholics. @Grip Docility does bring up a great point about 100% Bible. Baptists also believe that it is important to understand the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words within the manuscripts. Understanding the definitions of the words of the ancient languages are very often vitally important to learn a deeper, or more correct, understanding of the theology and doctrines in the Scriptures, in the Holy Bible.
Catholics also have a similar belief, as we must all trust in the Bible first, and then understand the different translations. I may be weird as a Catholic, but I use the NIV, NKJV and sometimes the ESV in conjunction with one of the Catholic Bibles, the NRSV-CE (New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition).

Also, whew, that is a lot of seminaries. It is good that the Baptists get young aspiring theologians and future pastors into Christianity. Catholics are trying to get younger folks into the Church as well, as many of our church leaders are getting some white hair.

Seminaries - Prepping Students for Ministry:

Catholic Seminary:
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,387
5,513
USA
✟702,753.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Catholics also have a similar belief, as we must all trust in the Bible first, and then understand the different translations.
Hey Alex,

Since this is a thread about God's Ten Commandments

The statement you made about trusting the bible first is a Catholic belief - can you explain why the Catholic church changed the Sabbath commandment not according to God of the Bible, the Creator of everything Exo 20:11- one of God's personally written and spoken commandments on God's Authority. Exo 31:18 Exo 32:18 Eze 20:20 that He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 but the CC said the change is a mark of their authority (over God's), that they are above the Bible.

This is what the Catholic church says on this matter- so I'm a bit confused on your statement that the bible comes first when it doesn't seem to be a teaching of the Catholic church

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.


Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
—The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible.
—The Catholic Virginian, To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.


These types of quotes go on and one, so it is not the bible that is first according to what the Catholic church teaches.

In Gods Word we are told this:

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is [a]pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.


Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there[a] is no light in them.

In the bible it says whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 God has good Christian people in all churches, but its time to come out of the teachings that are contrary to God's Word. Rev 18:4
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,699
25
WI
✟644,618.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hey Alex,

Since this is a thread about God's Ten Commandments

The statement you made about trusting the bible first is a Catholic belief - can you explain why the Catholic church changed the Sabbath commandment not according to God of the Bible, the Creator of everything Exo 20:11- one of God's personally written and spoken commandments on God's Authority. Exo 31:18 Exo 32:18 Eze 20:20 that He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 but the CC said the change is a mark of their authority (over God's), that they are above the Bible.

This is what the Catholic church says on this matter- so I'm a bit confused on your statement that the bible comes first when it doesn't seem to be a teaching of the Catholic church

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.


Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
—The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible.
—The Catholic Virginian, To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.


These types of quotes go on and one, so it is not the bible that is first according to what the Catholic church teaches.

In Gods Word we are told this:

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is [a]pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.


Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there[a] is no light in them.

In the bible it says whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 God has good Christian people in all churches, but its time to come out of the teachings that are contrary to God's Word. Rev 18:4
I detect legalism in this one.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Grip Docility
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
7,019
2,784
North America
✟19,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Obeying God the way He asks is legalism?

The Bible calls it love and faithfulness. 1 John 5:3 Rev14:12 Rom 3:31

Suit yourself.
One single question.

Which is more important to God?

Ensuring that a person is "Righteous" by the Moral Law per personal adherence in reference to their personal obedience, or Feeding the Homeless, Loving the Unlovable, Giving Water to the least of these, visiting the sick and imprisoned?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,387
5,513
USA
✟702,753.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
One single question.

Which is more important to God?

Ensuring that a person is "Righteous" by the Moral Law per personal adherence in reference to their personal obedience, or Feeding the Homeless, Loving the Unlovable, Giving Water to the least of these, visiting the sick and imprisoned?
God never said we had to choose, that is a teaching of man, not God. Can we feed the homeless and steal their belongings? The Sabbath commandment is no different than any of the other finger-written commandments. The Sabbath commandment is the only commandment that reveals God’s Authority Exo 20:11 over all heaven and earth and why it’s attacked so much.

Many of the scriptures that references feeding and drinking is speaking of spiritual food. Teaching something that is only half truth and not God’s Truth Psa 119:151 only leads one on the wrong path, which is why Jesus warned against doing so Mat 5:19
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aaron112
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
7,019
2,784
North America
✟19,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
God never said we had to choose, that is a teaching of man, not God.

Many of the scriptures that references feeding and drinking is speaking of spiritual food. Teaching something that is only half truth and not God’s Truth Psa 119:151 only leads one on the wrong path, which is why Jesus warned against doing so Mat 5:19
I was hit by another thought. Obviously, you don't have to answer any questions. However, I thought of an interesting question.

Let's say that you have been witnessing to a very stubborn person and they have been resistant to accepting Jesus. One day, a Sabbath day to be specific, they call you up and tell you that they have a landscape business and are about to go homeless because they are about to lose their wealthy client that has a massive mansion. The client is demanding that they complete their massive estate, this very day, because of a critical party that will transpire at Sundown. This person apologizes for reaching out to you, but says that noone is available to help them, this very day.

Would you help this person, or tell them that your convictions do not allow you to help them?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,325
1,339
TULSA
✟114,954.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Not only teaching sinfully, but
much more often listening sinfully , to false prophets, false gospels, false teachers,
has kept multitudes of multitudes on the path to destruction, not saving anyone.

Teaching something that is only half truth and not God’s Truth Psa 119:151 only leads one on the wrong path, which is why
 
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,325
1,339
TULSA
✟114,954.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Obeying God the way He asks is legalism?
The Bible calls it love and faithfulness. John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Rev14:12 Rom 3:31
Suit yourself.
With sorrow noting that multitudes follow and are part of and bring to the forum a false gospel that cannot save,
and what could save them , God's Word, Truth, is rejected as legalism.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,387
5,513
USA
✟702,753.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I was hit by another thought. Obviously, you don't have to answer any questions. However, I thought of an interesting question.

Let's say that you have been witnessing to a very stubborn person and they have been resistant to accepting Jesus. One day, a Sabbath day to be specific, they call you up and tell you that they have a landscape business and are about to go homeless because they are about to lose their wealthy client that has a massive mansion. The client is demanding that they complete their massive estate, this very day, because of a critical party that will transpire at Sundown. This person apologizes for reaching out to you, but says that noone is available to help them, this very day.

Would you help this person, or tell them that your convictions do not allow you to help them?
There is never a good reason to disobey God. That is where faith comes in. I have been in similar situations and every time I have obeyed God I was blessed ten-fold.

We should never compromise our faith. Work is to be done in 6 days Exo 20:9 the seventh day we are to keep holy thus saith the Lord. Exo 20:8

I would help teach them these things and show them how to help their landscaping business on another day, but would be willing to bring them food and fellowship with them on the Sabbath teaching the principles of God’s Word.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Aaron112
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,387
5,513
USA
✟702,753.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
With sorrow noting that multitudes follow and are part of and bring to the forum a false gospel that cannot save,
and what could save them , God's Word, Truth, is rejected as legalism.
They usually only apply this to the Sabbath for some strange reason when God is just trying to give us rest on the day He sanctified and blessed and made holy to do so. Exo 20:8-11 So He can bless Isa 56:1-6 and sanctify us Eze 20:12 because we can’t sanctify ourselves, we need God and they call that legalism- its amazing how things get twisted so easily if we don’t follow God’s Word

It really comes down to authority. Do we keep what we were warned about those who would change God’s times and laws Dan 7:25 based on their authority or are we faithful to God and keep the Sabbath commandment based on His Authority. Exo 20:8-11

Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
7,019
2,784
North America
✟19,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There is never a good reason to disobey God. That is where faith comes in. I have been in similar situations and every time I have obeyed God I was blessed ten-fold.

We should never compromise our faith. Work is to be done in 6 days Exo 20:9 the seventh day we are to keep holy thus saith the Lord. Exo 20:8

I would help teach them these things and show them how to help their landscaping business on another day, but would be willing to bring them food and fellowship with them on the Sabbath teaching the principles of God’s Word.
Matthew 12:5 “Or haven’t you read in the Torah that on Shabbat the cohanim profane Shabbat and yet are blameless? 6 I tell you, there is in this place something greater than the Temple! 7 If you knew what I want compassion rather than animal-sacrifice meant, you would not condemn the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of Shabbat!

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue. 10 A man there had a shriveled hand. Looking for a reason to accuse him of something, they asked him, “Is healing permitted on Shabbat?” 11 But he answered, “If you have a sheep that falls in a pit on Shabbat, which of you won’t take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore, what is permitted on Shabbat is to do good.”
 
  • Winner
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,325
1,339
TULSA
✟114,954.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
1 Corinthians 2:14 - Bible Gateway

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man pursues money instead of truth or life or God.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,387
5,513
USA
✟702,753.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 12:5 “Or haven’t you read in the Torah that on Shabbat the cohanim profane Shabbat and yet are blameless? 6 I tell you, there is in this place something greater than the Temple! 7 If you knew what I want compassion rather than animal-sacrifice meant, you would not condemn the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of Shabbat!

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue. 10 A man there had a shriveled hand. Looking for a reason to accuse him of something, they asked him, “Is healing permitted on Shabbat?” 11 But he answered, “If you have a sheep that falls in a pit on Shabbat, which of you won’t take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore, what is permitted on Shabbat is to do good.”
Eating was never a sin in the Sabbath commandment Exo 20:8-11, but work is Exo 20:9

Healing was never a sin, helping an animal in need never a sin- but work is Exo 20:9

These were also exceptions Jesus was teaching, the main focus on the Sabbath is about honoring God on His holy day, doing the ways of God Isa 58:13 examples from scripture were reading, teaching and hearing God’s Word and prayer. If an animal is in danger on the Sabbath, not a sin to help, if one is hungry on the Sabbath, not a sin to eat, but work and labors are very clear meant for the other 6 days Exo 20:9
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Aaron112
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
7,019
2,784
North America
✟19,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Eating was never a sin in the Sabbath commandment, but work is Exo 20:9
Have you ever had to lift a sheep from a ditch, before? It's a ton of work. Would you just let the sheep die?
 
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,325
1,339
TULSA
✟114,954.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
1 Corinthians 2:14 - Bible Gateway

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man pursues money instead of truth or life or God.
So how can any natural man learn truth , including about Shabbat and about work ?
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,387
5,513
USA
✟702,753.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Have you ever had to lift a sheep from a ditch, before? It's a ton of work. Would you just let the sheep die?
Nonsense. You can pick it up and move it in a few minutes, much different than doing hard labor for money on the Sabbath.

God’s law is spiritual and requires spiritual discernment.

It’s not the point of my post and that is God’s law was changed as we were warned Dan 7:25 and not by God, but by the Catholic church who takes credit for the change based on their own authority which they believe they are above the Bible. If you believe Rome- keep Sunday- if you believe God keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo 20:8 no middle ground.


Guess all gets sorted out soon enough.
 
Upvote 0