VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You’re making much more of this than is necessary. There are verses that fulfill earlier verses.

I'd suggest the Word abides forever, and is Alive

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective.

If you've been around as long as I have you've heard it all before. Utter nonsense then, same now

And just so you know none of us are better than the supposed (it will never happen) man as the antiChrist.

See Romans 3:9 and 1 Tim 1:15 for quick references

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

suffer according to God's will

Don't know how you missed it

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Don't know how you missed it

I didn't miss it. It applies to spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ.

 

[keras]

The claim of wrath in the 6th seal is made by unbelievers. How credible are they?

2 Peter 3:7 (NIV): By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. ----- If verse 7 is about the Trib, it's all about unbelievers. That's only fitting, because it is a provable fact that no believers enter the Trib (Rev 3:10). Also 2 Peter 3:10

Nahum 1:3 (NIV):
The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet. ----- "The guilty" are unbelievers. How do I know that? They are punished. We believers are forgiven.

You don't include the Bible version you use for the verses you cite. So, I have to assume that "He is veiled from sight" is in a verse. If so, that can't be related to the 6th seal because everyone there is an unbeliever and they collectively claim they see Jesus.

Zephaniah 1:17 (NIV):
“I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.

----- If Zephaniah 1:17 pertains to the Trib, it's about those who have sinned against the Lord; not believers because our sins are forgiven, and no believers enter the Trib (2 Peter 3:7).

Zechariah 9:14 mentions a battle trumpet. Where is that in the 6th seal? Another out-of-context verse.

Malachi 4:1 mentions all the arrogant and all evildoers. Whatever it pertains to, it's all about unbelievers.

2 Esdras 15:23 mentions sinners. C'mon. Are you mixing us in with unrepentant sinners? And, yes, if they are unrepentant sinners being "consumed like burning straw."

Luke 3:17, if in reference to the Trib, is DQ'd as applying to believers.

Hebrews 10:27 mentions "God’s enemies." Would that be us?

All of your replies are just a desperate attempt to fit in a rapture to heaven of the Church.
So, until you can prove that idea is in the Bible, the rest of your rantings are just hot air.

I use the Revised English Bible, 1987 Oxford Press. A complete re-translation from hundreds of sources, into modern English.
It is the version preferred by the Wickliffe Bible translators.
People who grip onto old and biased versions, are handicapping themselves.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of their wrath has come...That Day will fall upon ALL people..... Rev 6:15
Your fanciful rapture belief, is wrong and will never happen.

it will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up.
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly says: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

Please note the wording of John 14:3 (ESV): “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.” Jesus "descends" to a very shallow degree, remaining on the premises of Heaven. He may only descend from His throne. Why? We go to Him. 1 Th 4:17 proves we go to Him. Rev 4:1 also makes no mention of a descent. The descent was probably already done. Why? The open door. Who opened it?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All of your replies are just a desperate attempt to fit in a rapture to heaven of the Church.
So, until you can prove that idea is in the Bible, the rest of your rantings are just hot air.

I use the Revised English Bible, 1987 Oxford Press. A complete re-translation from hundreds of sources, into modern English.
It is the version preferred by the Wickliffe Bible translators.
People who grip onto old and biased versions, are handicapping themselves.

John 14:3 and Rev 4:1 are just two. Both represent the same pre-Trib rapture, straight to Heaven. Prove that isn't true.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All of your replies are just a desperate attempt to fit in a rapture to heaven of the Church.
So, until you can prove that idea is in the Bible, the rest of your rantings are just hot air.

I use the Revised English Bible, 1987 Oxford Press. A complete re-translation from hundreds of sources, into modern English.
It is the version preferred by the Wickliffe Bible translators.
People who grip onto old and biased versions, are handicapping themselves.

Is the REV version the same as REB?

This is Rev 7:14 (REV): And I say to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is Rev 7:14 (NLT): And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows. ”Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

I prefer NLT for its accuracy and its boldness in accuracy. It's not the only version I use, but it's a killer version.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All of your replies are just a desperate attempt to fit in a rapture to heaven of the Church.
So, until you can prove that idea is in the Bible, the rest of your rantings are just hot air.

I use the Revised English Bible, 1987 Oxford Press. A complete re-translation from hundreds of sources, into modern English.
It is the version preferred by the Wickliffe Bible translators.
People who grip onto old and biased versions, are handicapping themselves.

The pre-Trib rapture can be proven in more ways than this: Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): "I will keep you from the hour of trial." That means the Church will not enter the Trib. To not enter the Trib means we are removed from Earth. That is accomplished through Rev 4:1.

 

[Oseas]

If you've been around as long as I have you've heard it all before. Utter nonsense then, same now

And just so you know none of us are better than the supposed (it will never happen) man as the antiChrist.

See Romans 3:9 and 1 Tim 1:15 for quick references

In this the children of GOD are manifest, and the children of the Devil:
The birthplace, or the cradle of Antichrist, was the own Church, unfortunately, see how.

1 John 2:v.18-19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,even now are there MANY antichrists;whereby
we know that it is the last time.

The Antichrist was born from the church - see how | Friends Of Jesus

The birthplace of Antichrist 1 John 2:v.19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt

friendsofjesus.proboards.com

The Antichrist was born and rose up from the own Church-See how

Yes, the birthplace, or the cradle of Antichrist, was the own Church, unfortunately, see how. 1 John 2:v.18-19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that...

purebibleforum.com

 

[keras]

The pre-Trib rapture can be proven in more ways than this: Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): "I will keep you from the hour of trial." That means the Church will not enter the Trib. To not enter the Trib means we are removed from Earth. That is accomplished through Rev 4:1.

Tired old attempts to find a rapture, not any of the scriptures you present say such a thing at all.
You just succeed to make yourself look silly and gullible for believing such nonsense.

Scripture does not say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who will be the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control. They are not said to go to live in heaven, they will go with Jesus and become His priests or co-rulers, with the rest of the Christian martyrs. Rev 20:4

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Tired old attempts to find a rapture, not any of the scriptures you present say such a thing at all.
You just succeed to make yourself look silly and gullible for believing such nonsense.

Scripture does not say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who will be the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control. They are not said to go to live in heaven, they will go with Jesus and become His priests or co-rulers, with the rest of the Christian martyrs. Rev 20:4

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

Keras, where is Elijah? Elijah, the 2W, the GM and the 144k clearly are transformed into their glorified bodies before going into Heaven.

All of these verses work together in their fulfillment: Rev 3:10, 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1.

Their more detailed sequence: (1) Rev 3:10 (ESV): "... I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world ,..." (2) 1 Th 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52: (3) 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1. Therefore, we are no longer human upon 1 Th 4:17 / Rev 4:1 because we are already in our glorified bodies from 1 Cor 15:52 before we are raptured to Heaven.

Keras, you can't refute Jesus' words and their meaning in Rev 3:10 "... I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, ..." There's just one pre-Trib rapture of the Church, so the foregoing verses work together at their mutual fulfillment.

The pre-Trib rapture is not guesswork or wishful thinking. It is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ in Acts 1:9-11. You cannot find any other verses that PRECISELY align with Acts 1:9-11, other than 1 Th 4:16-17. You asked for a verse that says we are raptured to Heaven. That's Rev 4:1 because Apostle John never left Patmos during his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Our "testing" is in our trials and tribulation of daily life, as beautifully stated in 1 Peter 4. Per Rev 3:10, only "those who dwell on the earth" are certified unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture, as who are tried in the hour of trial.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Tired old attempts to find a rapture, not any of the scriptures you present say such a thing at all.
You just succeed to make yourself look silly and gullible for believing such nonsense.

Scripture does not say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who will be the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control. They are not said to go to live in heaven, they will go with Jesus and become His priests or co-rulers, with the rest of the Christian martyrs. Rev 20:4

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

“Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!”

--Luke 6:22

That is a classic example of a verse that proves that our testing is in our daily living as disciples of Jesus.

 

[keras]

“Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!”

--Luke 6:22

That is a classic example of a verse that proves that our testing is in our daily living as disciples of Jesus.

It sure is a classic example - of your failed attempts to find any scripture to support the rapture to heaven theory.
A rapture removal from the soon to occur Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will not happen. Best to be ready to stand strong, as you endure the test.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It is up to the believing followers of JESUS to identify

We have but one enemy. Satan.

Anyone studying scriptures should have figured that one out pretty quickly, and even assessed the reality of Satan via temptations out of left field upon their own minds

No need to go hunting your neighbors or politicians when the real enemy is in our own house, riding us like a horse

You've merely been distracted to look away from yourself. Mark 4:15

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I didn't miss it. It applies to spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ.

Did you happen to miss the fact that we all die because of sin?

 

[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

The claim of wrath in the 6th seal is made by unbelievers. How credible are they?

2 Peter 3:7 (NIV): By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. ----- If verse 7 is about the Trib, it's all about unbelievers. That's only fitting, because it is a provable fact that no believers enter the Trib (Rev 3:10). Also 2 Peter 3:10

Nahum 1:3 (NIV):
The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet. ----- "The guilty" are unbelievers. How do I know that? They are punished. We believers are forgiven.

You don't include the Bible version you use for the verses you cite. So, I have to assume that "He is veiled from sight" is in a verse. If so, that can't be related to the 6th seal because everyone there is an unbeliever and they collectively claim they see Jesus.

Zephaniah 1:17 (NIV):
“I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.

----- If Zephaniah 1:17 pertains to the Trib, it's about those who have sinned against the Lord; not believers because our sins are forgiven, and no believers enter the Trib (2 Peter 3:7).

Zechariah 9:14 mentions a battle trumpet. Where is that in the 6th seal? Another out-of-context verse.

Malachi 4:1 mentions all the arrogant and all evildoers. Whatever it pertains to, it's all about unbelievers.

2 Esdras 15:23 mentions sinners. C'mon. Are you mixing us in with unrepentant sinners? And, yes, if they are unrepentant sinners being "consumed like burning straw."

Luke 3:17, if in reference to the Trib, is DQ'd as applying to believers.

Hebrews 10:27 mentions "God’s enemies." Would that be us?

Christians are enduring tribulation today and have been enduring tribulation from the 1st century. Read John Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Tribulation is the English word for the Greek word thlipsis. Thlipsis means persecution.

Great tribulation are the English words for the Greek words megale thlipsis. Megale thlipsis means widespread intense persecution.


God's wrath comes from the Greek word orge'. We are not appointed to God's orge', but we are, will, and have been subject to, thlipsis and megale thlipsis. Just look at reports of our Christian brothers and sisters around the world that are butchered for their faith. Are they not also the church?

Beware of dispensational eschatology: it is the demonic led private interpretation of man, and out of the heart of man comes nothing good.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It sure is a classic example - of your failed attempts to find any scripture to support the rapture to heaven theory.
A rapture removal from the soon to occur Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will not happen. Best to be ready to stand strong, as you endure the test.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

We are kept from entering the Trib.

Rev 6:12-17 (ESV): 12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Rev 6:15-16 is proof that only unbelievers are on Earth. They hide in the caves and among the rocks (verse 15). They call to the mountains and rocks (verse 16). Why would they not call on Jesus? They want the mountains and rocks to fall on them TO HIDE them FROM THE FACE OF HIM WHO IS SEATED ON THE THRONE. Is that the behavior of believers? They call to have rocks fall on them and hide from an alleges sighting of Jesus. Keras, you can't prove there is one believer on Earth in Rev 6:12-17.

Titus 2:13 (ESV): waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

True or false? All believers are patiently enduring now, the blessed hope that is to come.

Jesus said in Rev 3:10 "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

True or false? The "hour of trial" that envelops the whole world is the 7-year Trib.

True of false? The hour of trial envelops the whole world.

True or false? The hour of trial only tries those who dwell on the earth.

Tired old attempts to find a rapture, not any of the scriptures you present say such a thing at all.
You just succeed to make yourself look silly and gullible for believing such nonsense.

Scripture does not say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who will be the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control. They are not said to go to live in heaven, they will go with Jesus and become His priests or co-rulers, with the rest of the Christian martyrs. Rev 20:4

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.
We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

What does Jesus mean in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial," when the "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib? Also, don't try to say it isn't the 7-year Trib. Jesus also says in Rev 3:10, "... that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." The "trial" is conducted through 21 judgments of God's wrath, known as the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, over about seven years. So, don't even try to say "the hour of trial" is not the 7-year Trib. Daniel's 70th week is seven years (of 360 days, each) per Daniel 9:27.

Those "who dwell on the earth" in Rev 3:10 are proven to be unbelievers, only. That is proven by Rev 6:10. Those crying out in verse 10 are new converts who become martyrs for the first group of the GM (Rev 6:9-11). The next proof of only unbelievers on earth is in the 6th seal. "Everyone" on Earth is gathered (Rev 6:15). Per Rev 6:15-17, they ALL hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” ----- What you're missing is the alleged wrath has already occurred (verses 12-14). The reaction by "everyone" is to call on the mountains and rocks. Keras, why don't they call on Jesus? Because they are unbelievers, every one of them, like verse 15 says. Therefore, all Christians you cite in the Trib, are new converts produced by the hard work of the 144k and, later, the 2W. They become "saints" by becoming "those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev 12:17).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It sure is a classic example - of your failed attempts to find any scripture to support the rapture to heaven theory.
A rapture removal from the soon to occur Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will not happen. Best to be ready to stand strong, as you endure the test.

You, once again, have not refuted what I wrote.

 

[Oseas]

We have but one enemy. Satan.

Anyone studying scriptures should have figured that one out pretty quickly, and even assessed the reality of Satan via temptations out of left field upon their own minds
No need to go hunting your neighbors or politicians when the real enemy is in our own house, riding us like a horse
You've merely been distracted to look away from yourself. Mark 4:15

What you are saying is good for nothing. Satan is not alone. What you are saying is good for nothing, except to be a stumblingblock.

Satan is not alone, he has legions with him, and you should know that the great Dragon is the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world. Multitudes are placed /situated in his devilish body having 7 heads and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his heads, and his TAIL is the most terrible among GOD's people, as prophesied Isaiah 9:15-16 combined with 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. But he will be cast out from this current heavenly environment (Ephesians 1:3-8) into the earth, and his messengers will be cast down with him.

Everyone who posts what is not true according the Word of GOD, they are placed/situated in the TAIL of the red Dragon working for for him against the true believers-Revelation 12:9.

Be careful or else get ready