Propitiation

[Hammster]

The thing is no one of us believe we have to be perfect to be saved.

Well, you should. That is the standard.

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
— Matthew 5:48

 

[zoidar]

Well, you should. That is the standard.

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
— Matthew 5:48

... in ourself...

I think the standard is to be sinless.

 

[David Lamb]

... in ourself...

I think the standard is to be sinless.

But even the best of us cannot achieve sinlessness in this life. That's why we need Christ's perfect righteousness. The apostle Paul recognised this:

“7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 ¶ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:7-9 NKJV)

 

[Hammster]

... in ourself...

I think the standard is to be sinless.

Okay. I’m going with what Jesus said.

 

[zoidar]

Okay. I’m going with what Jesus said.

Is that the only verse you have saying we need to be perfect?

 

[zoidar]

But even the best of us cannot achieve sinlessness in this life. That's why we need Christ's perfect righteousness. The apostle Paul recognised this:

“7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 ¶ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:7-9 NKJV)

Of course I agree we can't achieve sinlessness. But we get Christ righteousness when we are forgiven. Nothing needs to be added to being forgiven for what we have done and failed to do. Even we are counted as sinless, you and Hammster seem to be saying it is not enough to be sinless, you also need to be imputed a whole life of perfect works... This is where I disagree.

 

[Hammster]

Is that the only verse you have saying we need to be perfect?

You need more?

 

[zoidar]

You need more?

If you only got one verse you better be sure you understand it correctly.

 

[Hammster]

If you only got one verse you better be sure you understand it correctly.

Some things are pretty unambiguous.

 

[zoidar]

Some things are pretty unambiguous.

Yes, but not Matthew 5:48. Do you think Jesus is saying you have to be just as perfect as God in everything ... or that we are to do what God would have done in our place? It's a quite different thing. In the sermon Jesus tells us what he means by being perfect as his Father is perfect. He is not giving us any impossible demands, but everything he tells us to do we can do and should. Now being human and all, we will fail from time to time, which means we need forgiveness, but a general rule for a Christian is living perfectly like God is perfect. We have been given a great responsibility for how we live our life.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but not Matthew 5:48. Do you think Jesus is saying you have to be just as perfect as God in everything ... or that we are to do what God would have done in our place? It's a quite different thing. In the sermon Jesus tells us what he means by being perfect as his Father is perfect. He is not giving us any impossible demands, but everything he tells us to do we can do and should. Now being human and all, we will fail from time to time, which means we need forgiveness, but a general rule for a Christian is living perfectly like God is perfect. We have been given a great responsibility for how we live our life.

He is giving impossible demands. Thats why we need the gospel.

 

[zoidar]

He is giving impossible demands. Thats why we need the gospel.

We need the gospel to be saved. When we are saved we hopefully have the power to act according to Jesus teachings.

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell⁠—and great was its fall.”
— Matthew 7:24-27

 

[HIM]

But even the best of us cannot achieve sinlessness in this life. That's why we need Christ's perfect righteousness.

No where did Jesus teach that. In fact that teaches faithlessness

The apostle Paul recognised this:

“7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 ¶ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:7-9 NKJV)

Bad translation. The biggest issue with it is the word in. It is not faith in Christ. It is the faith of Christ. Take note in the beginning of verse 9 it says to be found in Him. What does that mean. Read Gal 2:20 as you ponder.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Remember Chapter 2 in Ephesians just got done saying it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Jesus said similar words about Himself in John 14 when he said "HE doeth the work"

This is key in understanding these text in chapter 3.

Here is the Greek.

Phil 3:9 καὶ And
εὑρεθῶ Be Found
ἐν In αὐτῷ Him,
μὴ Not
ἔχων Having
ἐμὴν δικαιοσύνην My Righteousness
τὴν the
ἐκ OUT Of
νόμου Law,
ἀλλὰ But
τὴν The
διὰ though
πίστεως of Faith
Χριστοῦ Of Christ '
τὴν The
ἐκ out Of θεοῦ God
δικαιοσύνην Righteousness
ἐπὶ On
τῇ the
πίστει Faith,

 

[David Lamb]

No where did Jesus teach that. In fact that teaches faithlessness

Bad translation. The biggest issue with it is the word in. It is not faith in Christ. It is the faith of Christ. Take note in the beginning of verse 9 it says to be found in Him. What does that mean. Read Gal 2:20 as you ponder.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Remember Chapter 2 in Ephesians just got done saying it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Jesus said similar words about Himself in John 14 when he said "HE doeth the work"

This is key in understanding these text in chapter 3.

Here is the Greek.

Phil 3:9 καὶ And
εὑρεθῶ Be Found
ἐν In αὐτῷ Him,
μὴ Not
ἔχων Having
ἐμὴν δικαιοσύνην My Righteousness
τὴν the
ἐκ OUT Of
νόμου Law,
ἀλλὰ But
τὴν The
διὰ though
πίστεως of Faith
Χριστοῦ Of Christ '
τὴν The
ἐκ out Of θεοῦ God
δικαιοσύνην Righteousness
ἐπὶ On
τῇ the
πίστει Faith,

No, saying that no one is able in this life to have their own perfect righteousness in no way teaches faithlessness. The apostle John says that if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and he's writing to Christians. Paul said he needed a righteousness better than his own, the righteousness that comes through the faith of (as you say) Christ.

 

[HIM]

No, saying that no one is able in this life to have their own perfect righteousness in no way teaches faithlessness.

Oh yes it is. What is not of faith, is of sin. Right from the get failure is derived.

The apostle John says that if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and he's writing to Christians.

It does not say, if we say we are not sinning. It says, if we say, we have no sin. There is a difference. One is a noun and the other is a verb. Confess before the action, We must fight the flesh. Sin is always knocking at the door. If we live after the flesh we shall die, but if we through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the Body we shall live.

Paul said he needed a righteousness better than his own, the righteousness that comes through the faith of (as you say) Christ.

RIGHT For God has said, the Law is in our hearts and minds. His word is in our hearts and mouths. This the Faith in which we preach. For we are dead, but live. Yet not us, but Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of Christ. We do not make void the Law through Faith, we establish it. How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer in it?

 

[Hammster]

We need the gospel to be saved. When we are saved we hopefully have the power to act according to Jesus teachings.

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell⁠—and great was its fall.”
— Matthew 7:24-27

We need to be saved because of impossible demands. If we could do it on our own, we wouldn’t need Christ.

 

[David Lamb]

Oh yes it is. What is not of faith, is of sin. Right from the get failure is derived.


It does not say, if we say we are not sinning. It says, if we say, we have no sin. There is a difference. One is a noun and the other is a verb. Confess before the action, We must fight the flesh. Sin is always knocking at the door. If we live after the flesh we shall die, but if we through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the Body we shall live.

RIGHT For God has said, the Law is in our hearts and minds. His word is in our hearts and mouths. This the Faith in which we preach. For we are dead, but live. Yet not us, but Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of Christ. We do not make void the Law through Faith, we establish it. How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer in it?

I'm sorry but we seem to be disagreeing on the basic matter of whether sinlessness is possible for anyone apart from the Saviour in this life. Over and over, the New Testament has examples of the impossibility of sinless perfection. The apostle Paul wrote:

“18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice.” (Ro 7:18-19 NKJV)

It seems immeasurably better to put one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness, than in any righteousness of my own.

 

[HIM]

I'm sorry but we seem to be disagreeing on the basic matter of whether sinlessness is possible for anyone apart from the Saviou

No. What were disagreeing on apparently is what we can achieve through our savior.

 

[David Lamb]

No. What were disagreeing on apparently is what we can achieve through our savior.

Of course the Saviour is perfect, but He is opposed by Satan, and we are often quicker to act upon Satan's suggestions. The Christian life is described as a fight, with the need for armour (spiritual armour, of course). The New Testament contains instructions to Christians such as "Resist the devil" and "Fight the good fight of faith". We also are given instances of people of God in both testaments falling into sin, such as Abraham, David and Peter. We do need the Saviour's perfect righteousness; our own is not enough.

 

[zoidar]

If we could do it on our own, we wouldn’t need Christ.

True!

We need to be saved because of impossible demands

Is it impossible for those indwelled with the Holy Spirit?