Propitiation

[Hammster]

Because that is how man is supposed to live and if we don't it's sin. We are supposed to live righteous lives, do good and abstain from doing evil. The only problem is we are not perfect and therefore we need forgiveness. When we are forgiven it's like we lived a perfect life, never did sin and always did good.

So again, we are commanded to do positive things, but they aren’t actually required.

 

[zoidar]

So again, we are commanded to do positive things, but they aren’t actually required.

You are required to abstain from sinning and to do that you need to do positive things, or else you are sinning.

 

[Hammster]

You are required to abstain from sinning and to do that you need to do positive things, or else you are sinning.

So if it’s sinful to not do the needed/required positive things, and we don’t do them, then they aren’t really needed/required.

 

[zoidar]

So if it’s sinful to not do the needed/required positive things, and we don’t do them, then they aren’t really needed/required.

Of course they are required, like I explained, or else we are sinning. But they are not required because we need postive deeds on our account.

Think of a born again person like a newborn baby. He/she is spotless, like that baby. Do you think God requires good deeds on the baby's account to be saved? Is it not enough to be spotless?

 

[Hammster]

Of course they are required, like I explained, or else we are sinning. But they are not required because we need postive deeds on our account.

Think of a born again person like a newborn baby. He/she is spotless, like that baby. Do you think God requires good deeds on the baby's account to be saved? Is it not enough to be spotless?

Yes, that baby needs good deeds. That baby is born in sin.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, that baby needs good deeds. That baby is born in sin.

But just as a baby doesn't need to do good deeds to be alive, so a sinner saved by Jesus Christ doesn't need good deeds to have new life in Christ, in other words, to become a Christian. True, once a person is a Christian, then God expects them to do good deeds, not to make them Christians, but because they are Christians. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

 

[Hammster]

But just as a baby doesn't need to do good deeds to be alive, so a sinner saved by Jesus Christ doesn't need good deeds to have new life in Christ, in other words, to become a Christian. True, once a person is a Christian, then God expects them to do good deeds, not to make them Christians, but because they are Christians. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

I’ve used this example ad nauseum. I have three biological children, and two adopted children. All five have birth certificates with my name and my wife’s name on them. The adopted two are just as much my children as the ones born of my wife.

What did my adopted children do to become my children? What good works did they do? What confessions or professions did they offer? None. They were three and two when adopted. So the only good works that “saved” them were those done by my wife and I. And nothing will change that.

Now, are they still required to do good works? Darn right. Keep rooms cleaned. Take out trash. Go to church. Love one another. Etc. If they fail at any one of them, do they fail to be my child, even for a moment? Not at all. The good works, though, show that they are mine.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, that baby needs good deeds. That baby is born in sin.

If a baby is born in sin is a good question. I'm sure you think of Adam's guilt for his transgression being imputed to everyone born into this world. I tend to think more like the Eastern Orthodox Christians, we inherit a sinful condition, not the guilt itself. So from that view infants are guiltless and spotless until they commit their first sin. Either way I still don't get why we need positive deeds on our account.

 

[Hammster]

If a baby is born in sin is a good question. I'm sure you think of Adam's guilt for his transgression being imputed to everyone born into this world. I tend to think more like the Eastern Orthodox Christians, we inherit a sinful condition, not the guilt itself. So from that view infants are guiltless and spotless until they commit their first sin. Either way I still don't get why we need positive deeds on our account.

You do understand that your view logically leads to universalism, right?

 

[zoidar]

You do understand that your view logically leads to universalism, right?

How? I don't understand how you connect this to universalism.

 

[Hammster]

How? I don't understand how you connect this to universalism.

Well, you think that Christ’s death atoned for all sin, and all we need is forgiveness. We don’t need anything positive in our favor, just nothing negative.

I don’t see how you can avoid universalism.

 

[zoidar]

Well, you think that Christ’s death atoned for all sin, and all we need is forgiveness. We don’t need anything positive in our favor, just nothing negative.

I don’t see how you can avoid universalism.

It's because we have a different view of what the atonement accomplished. I don't believe everyone is forgiven because they have an atoning sacrifice made for them, but that forgiveness is bestowed through the atonement to those who repent and have faith in Christ.

 

[Hammster]

It's because we have a different view of what the atonement accomplished. I don't believe everyone is forgiven because they have an atoning sacrifice made for them, but that forgiveness is bestowed through the atonement to those who repent and have faith in Christ.

But wouldn’t that be a positive action?

 

[zoidar]

But wouldn’t that be a positive action?

I don't think so because faith is not something we do and it's not faith itself that saves us, but what we have faith in.

 

[Hammster]

I don't think so because faith is not something we do and it's not faith itself that saves us, but what we have faith in.

So there’s no command anywhere to believe? It just happens?

 

[zoidar]

So there’s no command anywhere to believe? It just happens?

Of course there is a command to believe, but faith is a gift.

 

[Hammster]

Of course there is a command to believe, but faith is a gift.

The command is to repent and believe. So you need a positive action.

 

[zoidar]

The command is to repent and believe. So you need a positive action.

Ok, if I would agree faith is a positive part (or action) of our salvation, what would that have to do with Jesus' perfect obedience imputed to us? Especially since faith isn't a work.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, if I would agree faith is a positive part (or action) of our salvation, what would that have to do with Jesus' perfect obedience imputed to us? Especially since faith isn't a work.

We cannot have perfect faith, nor perfect repentance. In fact, everything required of us will not be done to perfection. And we are commanded to be perfect. We need someone to stand before God in our place.

 

[zoidar]

We cannot have perfect faith, nor perfect repentance. In fact, everything required of us will not be done to perfection. And we are commanded to be perfect. We need someone to stand before God in our place.

The thing is no one of us believe we have to be perfect in ourself to be saved. You believe Christ perfect life is imputed to us so we don't have to be perfect (in ourself) to be saved and I believe we have forgiveness when we fail and therefore we don't need to be perfect (in ourself) to be saved. That's the fact of things. Now you can say the Law of God demands perfect obedience to be saved by the Law, but that is another thing. We are not saved through the Law.