Propitiation

[Hammster]

No, as asked (3rd time), kindly cite the "verses [that] support this new claim that the Father gives some but not all humanity (indeed, every creature) to the Son? Mark 16:15-16.

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
— John 17:12

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

 

[o_mlly]

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
— John 17:12

Thanks for the citations.

First, the citation above is time limited and past tense (while I was with them) referring only to ~ 3 years of Jesus' public ministry. I note the plural "them" in John 17:12 identifies those whom Jesus kept during His earthly ministry.

The exception "son of destruction" is a singular reference to the only one lost during His earthly ministry, ie., Judas. I find no commentary on the verse that suggests otherwise.

Therefore, the verse does not support your claim that Jesus mediates for some and not others.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

I think this citation does not support your claim that Jesus only mediates for some, rather it states the He mediates for the plural "them" w/o delimiting them as some but not others.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for the citations.

First, the citation above is time limited and past tense (while I was with them) referring only to ~ 3 years of Jesus' public ministry. I note the plural "them" in John 17:12 identifies those whom Jesus kept during His earthly ministry.

The exception "son of destruction" is a singular reference to the only one lost during His earthly ministry, ie., Judas. I find no commentary on the verse that suggests otherwise.

Therefore, the verse does not support your claim that Jesus mediates for some and not others.

It does when you read the other citation.

I think this citation does not support your claim that Jesus only mediates for some, rather it states the He mediates for the plural "them" w/o delimiting them as some but not others.

Okay. You won’t be convinced by scripture. Not much more I can do.

 

[zoidar]

Let’s start here.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
— Romans 5:19

The one man's disobedience is the one act (v.18) that made all sinners. The obedience of the one is the one act (v.18, crucifixion) that makes all believers righteous.

 

[Hammster]

The one man's disobedience is the one act (v.18) that made all sinners. The obedience of the one is the one act (v.18, crucifixion) that makes all believers righteous.

So we are made righteous by His active obedience.

 

[zoidar]

So we are made righteous by His active obedience.

I would say it's not the obedience itself that makes us righteous, but the "fruit" of his obedience, his death and resurrection.

 

[Hammster]

I would say it's not the obedience itself that makes us righteous, but the "fruit" of his obedience, his death and resurrection.

Then Paul got it wrong. He thought it was the obedience.

 

[o_mlly]

Okay. You won’t be convinced by scripture. Not much more I can do.

No, I would be convinced by Scripture. I am not (or ever) convinced by one's eisegetical argumentation.

 

[Hammster]

No, I would be convinced by Scripture. I am not (or ever) convinced by one's eisegetical argumentation.

Okay.

 

[zoidar]

Then Paul got it wrong. He thought it was the obedience.

Then you misunderstand Paul.

The obedience was necessary for the effect to take place. The obedience is not part of the means which makes us righteous, like it's not the obedience to the doctor that makes us well, but the medicin we are ingesting.

 

[Hammster]

Then you misunderstand Paul.

The obedience was necessary for the effect to take place. The obedience is not part of the means which makes us righteous, like it's not the obedience to the doctor that makes us well, but the medicin we are ingesting.

Maybe this will help.

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
— Philippians 2:8-11

Paul here shows that it’s all of Christ’s life that is in view.

 

[zoidar]

Maybe this will help.

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
— Philippians 2:8-11

Paul here shows that it’s all of Christ’s life that is in view.

"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him" You think it refers to Jesus' general obedience and not to the very point he was obedient to death on the cross? I think it can be taken both ways. But ok, let's say if refers to Jesus living a life in obedience and was exalted therefore. What then? You will say Rom 5:19 refers to Christ's general obedience and not the one act of obedience?

 

[Hammster]

"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him" You think it refers to Jesus' general obedience and not to the very point he was obedient to death on the cross? I think it can be taken both ways. But ok, let's say if refers to Jesus living a life in obedience and was exalted therefore. What then? You will say Rom 5:19 refers to Christ's general obedience and not the one act of obedience?

I’m not sure what you’re asking, but let me tell you the point. We are called on to not only not have sins of commission, but also no sins of omission. Which means we need to be perfect in all aspects of our life. We need a perfect substitute so that we can have that perfect life. So it’s not just Christ’s death that benefits us. It’s also His life.

 

[zoidar]

I’m not sure what you’re asking, but let me tell you the point. We are called on to not only not have sins of commission, but also no sins of omission. Which means we need to be perfect in all aspects of our life. We need a perfect substitute so that we can have that perfect life. So it’s not just Christ’s death that benefits us. It’s also His life.

I don't understand why forgiveness of our sins of omission isn't enough. If we are forgiven for not being perfect in obedience, means we don't have to be perfect in obedience to be saved. Then adding of Christ perfect obedience to that seems to me superfluous. Also I haven't seen any good arguments from Scripture for Christ perfect obedience being imputed to us.

 

[Hammster]

I don't understand why forgiveness of our sins of omission isn't enough. If we are forgiven for not being perfect in obedience, means we don't have to be perfect in obedience to be saved. Then adding of Christ perfect obedience to that seems to me superfluous. Also I haven't seen any good arguments from Scripture for Christ perfect obedience being imputed to us.

So in your view, just not doing bad is good enough?

 

[zoidar]

So in your view, just not doing bad is good enough?

No, but we don't need to be perfect in acts of commission or free from failures of omission, since there is forgiveness. Being forgiven makes us perfect, no doing or not doing can make us perfect, only forgiveness can. That's my view.

 

[Hammster]

No, but we don't need to be perfect in acts of commission or free from failures of omission, since there is forgiveness. Being forgiven makes us perfect, no doing or not doing can make us perfect, only forgiveness can. That's my view.

What you are saying is that you don’t need anything positive. You just need to make sure you have nothing negative.

 

[zoidar]

What you are saying is that you don’t need anything positive. You just need to make sure you have nothing negative.

If I understand you correct, then yes! You don't get anything positive for helping someone who has been hit by a car. You are supposed to do that. You only get negative from not helping him. So yes, we need forgiveness to be free from sin. We don't need anything for what we have done that is right. The only way to have nothing negative is by being forgiven every sin, what you have done and failed to do. I don't understand why something needs to be added to that.

 

[Hammster]

If I understand you correct, then yes! You don't get anything positive for helping someone who has been hit by a car. You are supposed to do that. You only get negative from not helping him. So yes, we need forgiveness to be free from sin. We don't need anything for what we have done that is right. The only way to have nothing negative is by being forgiven every sin, what you have done and failed to do. I don't understand why something needs to be added to that.

Then why are there commands to do good?

 

[zoidar]

Then why are there commands to do good?

Because that is how man is supposed to live and if we don't it's sin. We are supposed to live righteous lives, do good and abstain from doing evil. The only problem is we are not perfect and therefore we need forgiveness. When we are forgiven it's like we lived a perfect life, never did sin and always did good.