FBI identifies Trump rally shooter as Thomas Matthew Crooks <--- Thread is about the perpetrator, the crime, and the motivation, not Trump

[Ana the Ist]

I don’t recall the complaints against heavy metal being used to justify the denial of civil rights.

No...but let's not pretend that the political left supported gay marriage either. They were against it right up until the moment it was popular enough to pass the SCOTUS.

Either way, in the world in which I grew up, the complaints against heavy metal got more extreme than you probably realize. The fears of satanism were very real.

Fears perhaps.

That’s splitting hairs. Charles Manson never killed anybody himself either.

That's not splitting hairs. I wasn't sure you understood the claim.

It’s been a while at this point, so I don’t recall all of them, but off the top of my head, several alleged “bodyguards” were merely helicopter crewman who never had more than minimal contact with the Clintons. I remember one of the names on the list being the wrong person altogether.

Ok. Skip all the bodyguards and you still have maybe 36 people if you update the list to include this guy....

Journalist who broke Clinton-Lynch tarmac meet story dies by suicide

Christopher Sign (left), 45, who was first to report of a secret meeting between former President Bill Clinton (top right) and then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch in 2016, has died of apparent suicide.

www.google.com

Who claimed to be threatened before his death. It's a rather large number of suicides (two of which jumped from tall buildings), car accidents, plane accidents, and at least two robberies gone wrong.

I mean, now that Epstein is dead and they aren't really in political circles anymore...it seems unlikely another body will happen, but regardless, how many dead people have to know, work for/with, or make claims about a politician and die before anything comes of it before you regard it as suspicious?

 

[durangodawood]

No...but let's not pretend that the political left supported gay marriage either. They were against it right up until the moment it was popular enough to pass the SCOTUS.

A lot of them did. But not at the top. Obama was a follower in that regard - at least publicly.

I never believed his initial denials of support for gay marriage. I was pretty sure it was a lie of political necessity.

 

[iluvatar5150]

So if we're looking at what led up to or fostered the things that threaten democratic norms (IE: questioning or rejecting election results, eventually in ways that lead to violent altercations)

What's more likely to have set the framework for normalizing election denial
Was it religious media calling people "baby killers"? Or Rush Limbaugh floating conspiracy theories about Vince Foster?

Or was it the events I outlined before that happened surrounding the 2000 and 2004 elections?

It's neither. It's the coming of age of a segment of the population who grew up between the late 70's - mid 90's in a fundamentalist/charismatic environment steeped in conspiracies and superstition, along with a broader erosion of trust in institutions. Election denialism doesn't exist in a vacuum; it's merely one manifestation of an entire conspiracy-laden worldview. Fretting over the "Deep State" and much of the politicized furor about sex trafficking are other manifestations.

Whatever the rhetoric was surrounding Bill Clinton, I don't recall over a dozen house reps trying to stop the election from being certified during his first election, and I don't recall 1/3 of the opposing team suggesting that his 2nd election was "rigged via voting machines" after his subsequent re-election.

Where do you come up with "1/3 of the opposing team"? I read the Politico piece and it never presents that group as being anything other than small.

And while some goofy conspiracy theories may have been floated around, they were always just that, fringe conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories didn't start getting "mainstream status" (as in, a substantial amount of a party, and party leaders willing to embrace them) until the Bush 9/11 stuff.

Terry McAuliffe (then DNC chair) along with some Senators and House Reps attending the premier of "Fahrenheit 911" (and subsequently promoting it) represents a "normalization of conspiracy theories" that hadn't existed up until then.

I haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11. Does it allege that 9/11 was an inside job? I remember that claim going around, but wikipedia doesn't say anything about the movie making it.

And I also feel that those events were the precursor to them voting for someone like Trump in the first place. After 3 times in a row of getting labelled as "fascist/racist/etc..." after voting for the respectable (yet, increasingly watered-down) candidates, eventually that causes a "gloves are coming off, we want a counter-puncher" mentality for some people I would imagine.

"Well, they called us names for voting for Bush...okay, well we'll back John McCain, he's a little more tame, and gets along well with their team...hmmm, they still called us racists, let's go with Romney, a New England governor who accomplished healthcare reform and got high approvals ratings in a blue state...what's that, they're still calling us fascists?...ok, that's it, no more playing nice"

The Right has been directing more vitriol than that at the Left for longer. Why is it mostly only folks on the Right who regress into voting for the low brow populists?

 

[ozso]

There's no way that the S.S. should have ever relinquished such a pertinent location over to local law enforcement. That is very poor drcision-making on the part of the Secret Service!

And if this is an example of the kinds of decision making the Secret Service makes, then an investigation on who made that call needs to take place immediately.

....And I want to know exactly who that ladder belongs to that multiple sources cite as being used at that location.

I'm wondering why there wasn't a rooftop spotter. Someone up on the roof with the snipers scanning everywhere with high powered binoculars.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'm wondering why there wasn't a rooftop spotter. Someone up on the roof with the snipers scanning everywhere with high powered binoculars.

While the gunman was visible to those at the back of the building, the angle of the roof meant it was far harder for Secret Service snipers to see him until he aimed over the peak with his gun.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A lot of them did. But not at the top. Obama was a follower in that regard - at least publicly.

I never believed his initial denials of support for gay marriage. I was pretty sure it was a lie of political necessity.

You think he supported gay marriage and denied it?

Just wanted to be clear on what you said.

 

[ozso]

While the gunman was visible to those at the back of the building, the angle of the roof meant it was far harder for Secret Service snipers to see him until he aimed over the peak with his gun.

How does that explain why there wasn't a spotter? Also snipers are usually kneeling or on their belly. A spotter stands upright.

 

[Larniavc]

humdrum personalities don't go launch elaborate assassination attempts on a presidential candidate

ever

they are motivated by insanity (Son of Sam types), self-promotion and fame (Hinkley), or politics and ideology (Princip, etc.)

now I realize the political left just wants this to go away, and is basically saying "nothing to see here", but it isn't going to go away.

assassins have motives and leave evidence

they don't do things spontaneously and leave absolutely no evidence

if a registered Democrat who expressed support for the Democratic Party and Joe Biden suddenly decides one day to shoot the president, we should be asking "why would he do that? what was the motive? this doesn't make sense"

sometimes, conspiracy theories are real, as in the case of Gavrillo Princip

We have a saying in the UK ‘it’s always the quiet ones…’ typically in regards to people like country side axe murderers.

 

[Larniavc]

assassin puts a bullet one inch away from a kill shot on Trump, and you are asking me how the plan was elaborate? lol

I don't even need to explain further about how silly your comment is

He climbed onto an unguarded roof and fired off some shots. It’s hardly ‘The Day of the Jakal’.

 

[ozso]

There's no way that the S.S. should have ever relinquished such a pertinent location over to local law enforcement. That is very poor drcision-making on the part of the Secret Service!

And if this is an example of the kinds of decision making the Secret Service makes, then an investigation on who made that call needs to take place immediately.

....And I want to know exactly who that ladder belongs to that multiple sources cite as being used at that location.

Going over the wiki article on it, it says "Crooks purchased a five-foot ladder".

 

[Larniavc]

Always the victim they are.

Crikey. Have you seen the recurrent post started on CF where Christians complain of persecution?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's neither. It's the coming of age of a segment of the population who grew up between the late 70's - mid 90's in a fundamentalist/charismatic environment steeped in conspiracies and superstition, along with a broader erosion of trust in institutions.

Erosion of trust in institutions?

The police are systemically racist and unconsciously biased against black men. That's a conspiracy theory based on a lie about the police evolving from slave catchers (and somehow that makes modern police racist). There's no evidence of it.

How about college graduates deserve student loan forgiveness? That's an erosion of trust in not only higher education to deliver value on a degree, but the banks to not swindle college students, and the job market that this administration keeps claiming is great.

Election denialism doesn't exist in a vacuum; it's merely one manifestation of an entire conspiracy-laden worldview. Fretting over the "Deep State" and much of the politicized furor about sex trafficking are other manifestations.

Much politicized furor over sex trafficking?

Did you watch the HHS whistleblower testimony?

The Right has been directing more vitriol than that at the Left for longer. Why is it mostly only folks on the Right who regress into voting for the low brow populists?

Populism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I'm not sure populism is a regression. When you have a disappearing middle class, a near impossibility of home ownership for those under 30, and 90 billion being shipped to a war we aren't fighting (supposedly) you should expect some populist sentiments.

Also, every time a politician on the left complains about billionaire's and multimillionaires not paying their fair share....you're hearing a blatantly populist message.

 

[Landon Caeli]

We have a saying in the UK ‘it’s always the quiet ones…’ typically in regards to people like country side axe murderers.

That saying is actually false. It's far more likely for fast-talkers to become psychopathic killers than the quiet ones.

In fact, it's the quiet types who are statistically more intelligent and kinder than big blabbers, who typically spout nonsense and tend to be self-righteous. Blabbers also tend to have higher rates of dementia later in life.

 

[Pommer]

That saying is actually false. It's far more likely for fast-talkers to become psychopathic killers than the quiet ones.

In fact, it's the quiet types who are statistically more intelligent than big blabbers, who typically spout nonsense. Blabbers also tend to have higher rates of dementia later in life.

Oh, I didn’t know that you were a profiler for any LEO, congrats.

 

[durangodawood]

He climbed onto an unguarded roof and fired off some shots. It’s hardly ‘The Day of the Jakal’.

Mission Incompetent.

 

[Larniavc]

Shooter reportedly used a ladder to gain access to roof in Trump assassination attempt

Officers were reportedly told by rally attendees moments before a gunman attempted to assassinate former President Donald Trump of a man trying to reach the roof of a nearby building using a ladder.

www.kbzk.com

Some reports I've read say that the officer also gained roof access via ladder, while other reports say he was "hoisted" by other officers... Clearly some people are lying about this.

Probably the officer was a tubby fellow and need support to manage a few dozen feet up a ladder.

 

[ozso]

Oh, I didn’t know that you were a profiler for any LEO, congrats.

Oh, is that the requirement for giving opinions on killers in this thread?

 

[wing2000]

....a reminder:

Thread is about the perpetrator, the crime, and the motivation​

...there are plenty of other threads addressing the security issues.

 

[wing2000]

Sadly, the officers are claiming they "hoisted" an officer up to the roof... To me, it sounds like they're lying because it makes it look that much worse - that Crooks totes not only a rifle, but even a ladder right there in front of them, and nobody was watching.

But the question remains... Why was nobody in charge of that area.

A good question for a different thread.

 

[Landon Caeli]

A good question for a different thread.

Carry on. It's deleted.