FBI identifies Trump rally shooter as Thomas Matthew Crooks <--- Thread is about the perpetrator, the crime, and the motivation, not Trump

[rjs330]

It's not people voting for it. They want to start a civil war.

I thought Trump.was the leader of the civil war movement. After all he has called people to fight.

 

[BPPLEE]

Something doesn't need to be elaborate to be successful. He, after the event had started, climbed a building outside the event and fired with a rifle that belonged to his father. He had one lucky shot that grazed Trump, but that was all, and he was dead before getting off more than a small handful of shots. TBH, it wasn't much of a plan, and it looks like he came up with some of it on the spot when he realized there were magnetometers at the really.

In that case it was ridiculously easy. He managed to graze the president, kill one supporter and wound another

 

[RDKirk]

The stuff back then was tame in comparison to today. It was all about small government vs big government, less taxes vs more taxes and heaven forbid, character. Yes rhe moral majority was formed because those conservatives were concerned about the moral decline of the country. But the time was not near as devisive as it became. Why even the Democrats weren't as liberal back then and both parties could work together despite their differences. There were liberal talk show hosts as well, although not very popular and the media was still pretty liberal but not as bad as today.

Stuff really wasn't as extreme as you make it out to be. It was pretty tame. But we did have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Then there was the great hanging chad incident which started a divisive problem with the Democrats claiming Gore won.

Then came the great 911 hit and America came together at least for a while. The the conspiracies started and Bush was accused of either masterminding the attack or knowing about it before hand.

Then Obama the great divider was elected. And the division has gotten worse and worse since then. Racial division began to really become a thing as Republicans and conservatives were continually accused of being racists and homophones. Bitter clingers to their god and guns. And the names just kept on coming. The tea parties who were all about responsible governement called tea baggers, probes launched by IRS into conservative groups even though Obama wasn't supportive of gay marriage. By the time Obama was done race relations was seen as an all time low. The border was a mess and the names kept coming against conservatives. The main steam media went even further left and conservatives were called baskets of deplorables and their states relegated to flyover states.

Basically, the 80s and 90s were nothing compared to the vitriol accusations and name calling that has gone on since by the left. And the left certainly wasn't innocent in the 80s and 90s either.

And I know you hate Trump. I don't like the man either. But to see today, leftists very upset over the fact that Trump wasn't killed, is enough evidence to how unhinged it has become. Far beyond anything that was going on in the 90s.

It started with Gingrich.

 

[RDKirk]

In that case it was ridiculously easy. He managed to graze the president, kill one supporter and wound another

It's always ridiculously easy. Which assignation or assassination attempt in American history was not ridiculously easy? The only thing hard is making a getaway.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The stuff back then was tame in comparison to today. It was all about small government vs big government, less taxes vs more taxes and heaven forbid, character.

No, that wasn't all it was.

Yes rhe moral majority was formed because those conservatives were concerned about the moral decline of the country. But the time was not near as devisive as it became.

The LGBTQ community might disagree about how divisive their rhetoric was.

Stuff really wasn't as extreme as you make it out to be. It was pretty tame. But we did have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Stuff didn't seem extreme because you agreed with it or because it was said with a smile. But claiming that gay marriage threatens the fabric of the family or that the Clintons murdered several of their associates are not "pretty tame."

 

[BPPLEE]

It's always ridiculously easy. Which assignation or assassination attempt in American history was not ridiculously easy? The only thing hard is making a getaway.

That shot that Oswald made was not easy

 

[ozso]

The fact that it's been 43 years since Regan was shot suggests that it's normally not that easy.

 

[rjs330]

The LGBTQ community might disagree about how divisive their rhetoric was.

Rhe lgbtq community will always call it divisive when they disagree. Always the victim they are.

No, that wasn't all it was.

That's was pretty much almost all of it.

Stuff didn't seem extreme because

It wasn't. Not near as extreme as it is today. Conservatives and liberals always disagreed an many things. And the stuff I heard from the liberal talk shows was not tame at all. However it still wasn't filled with as much vitriol as we see today.

No it's a lot worse now thanks to the left.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Every single person with whom I am acquainted has suffered familial collateral damage from this Trump nonsense. Every. Single. Person.

I know people who have family members who won't speak to them anymore or just act like they don't exist....because they voted for Trump.

I don't see that as "Trump's fault" but rather the result of those family members being unreasonable and goofy.

If you stop talking to a family member because they voted for a candidate who you don't like....there's something wrong with you, not them.

 

[rjs330]

Just remember, as Biden said we should resolve our differences at the battle box.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Rhe lgbtq community will always call it divisive when they disagree. Always the victim they are.

lol, wow. Yes, oppressing them makes them the victim. Lying about them - as Dobson et al frequently did - in order to deny them basic rights does make them the victim.

 

[essentialsaltes]

[Local LEO] Snipers were inside the building where gunman attempted to assassinate Trump​

The team, according to the source, was located on the second floor providing overwatch of the crowd at the rally.

wat

 

[ozso]

Just remember, as Biden said we should resolve our differences at the battle box.

That's how we do it, at the battle box.

 

[ozso]

[Local LEO] Snipers were inside the building where gunman attempted to assassinate Trump​

The team, according to the source, was located on the second floor providing overwatch of the crowd at the rally.

wat

Next it's going to be Crooks high-fived them on his way to the roof.

 

[iluvatar5150]

[Local LEO] Snipers were inside the building where gunman attempted to assassinate Trump​

The team, according to the source, was located on the second floor providing overwatch of the crowd at the rally.

wat

This happened in Pennsylvania, which makes these guys, literally, the Keystone state Cops.

 

[Arcangl86]

[Local LEO] Snipers were inside the building where gunman attempted to assassinate Trump​

The team, according to the source, was located on the second floor providing overwatch of the crowd at the rally.

wat

I strongly suspect that the Butler County ESU will be getting a lot smaller in the immediate future.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You obviously didn’t grow up in that environment. I did. Not only were they engaging in full blown conspiracies then, they were much worse about it. They’re actually more sane now, by a significant margin.

Remember: the 80’s were the height of the satanic panic, creationism, and end times eschatology; and then abortion was poured on top. The fundy right was absolutely swimming in crazy back then.

It’s probably true that that group’s conspiracies are more partisan in nature now, but, on average, they’re not crazier. Not even close.



I didn’t say it was a conspiracy theory, but it does lead to some pretty extreme conclusions.


That’s an artifact of technology. By 2000, right-wing media had been in full swing for several years and the internet was taking off, which allowed the crazy stuff to spread faster than when it was spread in print. Limbaugh spent years in the 90’s pushing the claim that the Clintons had Vince Foster (and others) killed.

There's 2 problems contributing to the proliferation of conspiracy theories these days.

1. Lack of honesty in the media. Media openly trafficking in nonsense political narratives and outright lies. I know people here who claimed "hydrochloroquine" was "horse medicine". I know people here who claimed "Donald Trump caused the border crisis" with zero evidence and only half-cocked reasoning. I watched thread after thread of completely normal words and phrases called "white supremacist dog whistles" whether it was the word "globalist" or "it's OK to be white" or "Wuhan coronavirus". There was a time when the mere suggestion of a lab leak, even accidental, would result in you being treated as if you had gone insane. The left has little trouble when identifying right wing conspiracy theories....but is often wildly overestimating the number of people on the right who believe them. They also seem to be blind to their own conspiracy theories because they are promoted in mainstream media. Do you think that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election? Never any evidence for this found despite a mountain of resources thrown at the attempt. Not only that, but the subsequent investigation of that investigation showed improper procedures, political bias, and plenty of indicators that the investigation was never valid. Even the CIA buried a report in late 2016 that indicated Putin preferred Hillary to win the election as he saw her as a weaker/more predictable opponent.

2. Government lying. Does the government lie? Of course it does. Has the government always lied? You betcha. Does the government lie to you? Yes....full stop. We watched the government lie about everything from the existence of a border crisis from 2016-2019 (although the Obama head of DHS acknowledged the existence of a growing problem back in 2014). Did numerous government officials lie about Trump's connection to the growing but still small "white supremacist groups" from 2016-2020? Oh yeah...a quick search on the topic shows they were growing under Obama...and no official research has ever tried to tie Trump to any of these movements. That's pretty wild when you consider just how honest these people are over why they're white supremacists.....you can literally just ask them and they'll gladly explain with a smile on their face. Other lies the government has told include the necessity of covid vaccines to "beat covid" (we haven't beaten covid, and vaccines lose effectiveness in less than a year). I watched politicians like Lori Lightfoot literally threaten to jail people who refused to get the vaccine because they were "putting lives in danger". The main reason why covid isn't the concern it once was is the fact that it evolved to a less lethal variant. We've also watched the government lie about the mental fitness of the president for several years at this point...a fact many people had to face for the first time post debate. The government and media lied about CRT in schools, gender theory in schools, sexually graphic children's books in schools, and the inclusion of racist practices and policies in schools.

So it's always weird to me to see those on the left harangue over right wing conspiracy theories as if they themselves haven't completely bought into all sorts of ridiculous nonsense simply because they read it in the NYT or WaPo. I recall when those publications treated the "Pewdipie to nazi pipeline" or "Ben Shapiro to nazi pipeline" as real things that were really happening. I recall those publications treating the word "based" as an indication your son is being "radicalized online" lol. I'm certain there's still people on the left who believe Trump was working with Putin in some capacity despite the hundreds of agents, over 100,000 hours of investigation, and dozens upon dozens of electronic wire taps on Trump and everyone in his circle just missed the evidence.

A little humility and perspective is needed when looking down one's nose what the "other side" believes regardless of which side you're on. The main difference between the conspiracy theories on the right and left is the ones on the right tend to be found in internet basements and few people on the right genuinely believe them. Those on the left are spread on mainstream news publications and are believed by a very wide audience and nobody acknowledges the lie once it's disproved.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No we haven't

George W Bush, Al Gore, John Kerry, John McCain, Barack Obama, and Mitt Romney were all perfectly respectable candidates.

I'm not sure if I agree on the respectability of GW. He was a nepotism candidate, not particularly bright, got us in 2 wars with little upside, and seemed to be working harder for the large corporations he was a part of prior to his presidency. He looks respectable in retrospect.

I actually don't blame anyone for voting for Biden in 2020 either. He ran a very quiet campaign because his dementia was not as serious but still a problem...and I was more inclined to believe it was being exaggerated by the right, just like everyone else.

I don't think Trump or Hillary were particularly good candidates. Both ran largely negative campaigns, and Hillary was guilty of the same sort of classified documents pilfering that Biden and Trump have been shown guilty of.

Trump may be a bad candidate because of his false elector scheme...but it's hard to say the extent of his involvement without a conviction and that really should have happened a year ago if they had a case. Biden is a candidate in name only. I don't think the current white house agenda is his. I don't think he can claim to be running on anything. It's not as if he ran on race based loans, job quotas, or any of the other DEI nonsense. Out of all failures, foreign policy, economic, crime, the border....I think what his education department has done will be the worst of his entire legacy. If you haven't looked into "race based suspensions" look at Broward county (I think) to see the disastrous damage done by these neo-racist ideals.

People may have not agreed with their policies (depending on which side a person was on), but they were perfectly qualified and reasonable candidates.

Nobody should've been getting called any sort of name for supporting any one of them. (but they were)

Yeah...McCain's death was celebrated by a segment of the hardcore left. Yet his moment during his campaign where he stamped on divisive rhetoric of Obama being affiliated with terrorists is sorely missed. Politicians equating their opposition with democracy ending evil is the norm now.

....unless someone is so narcissistic to believe that "reasonable choices" should span the spectrum of "exactly like me" <-> "mostly like me"

Part of the reason the left has no clear option outside of Biden is the idea they pushed that someone needs to be a certain race and sex to effectively benefit a group of people....which happens to be the same sex and race as you. It's rather disturbing to go back and read those headlines complaining of white men running for office....because they're white and men.

But are you really offering them the off-ramp of "reality" as a stand-alone option, or is that off-ramp coming with a bunch of baggage?

Yes, the people who supported an election denier were engaging in some avoidance of reality, but if their only other option is "you have to bend a knee to all of these other progressive positions because democracy is at stake", then it's a false choice.


Take this example.

If "Dave Jones" is in favor of addressing climate change, supports gun control, supports a woman's right to choose, supports gay marriage, and supports a $20 minimum wage, but has said "I know I'll win big, and if I lose, it's because they cheated, and that means this whole thing was rigged!"

Vs.

"Tom Smith" who says "abortions should be banned", "people should be allowed to own a bazooka", "climate change is a hoax"...but, says "but if I lose, I'll concede the election, Dave Jones won fair and square, it's important we listen to the will of the people"


Would it be fair to bash you as being "detached from reality" if you made the choice to cast a ballot for Dave Jones?

The media plays a big part in this. The backlash by the "not my president", "he will not divide us", "hashtag resistance" groups following Trump's victory in 2016....these are all things that got memory-holed by the media. Were they peaceful? Absolutely not. A protest/riot broke out on his Inauguration day that set cars on fire and planned/attempted to block his motorcade....ostensibly, because they thought preventing his inauguration would somehow stop him from being president. It's a ridiculous thing to think...but no more or less ridiculous than the idea of stopping Pence from ratifying the election of Biden would prevent him from being president.

I don't think most people recall these things happening....and the idea that because they're on the left, they're somehow more reasonable than those on the right, is silly. In retrospect, considering how relatively mild and uneventful Trump's presidency was (much like Obama, he was blocked from much of what he tried to do in his initial 4 years)....this is all a really stupid and overblown reaction to an election.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We've believed that for decades. It's not a conspiracy theory. Believing that can lead to conclusions that would not be extreme in any other circumstance.

There have been people who have acted out in extreme ways. Such as bombing clinics etc. But we also had people.who believed all police were hunting down black men and tried to burn the police alive. Also leading to police assassinations and the burning down of businesses etc.

I wonder what some leftists would do if they believed that (some on the right were murdering people in pregnancy caring centers).

I don't want to turn this into an abortion debate. But when people believe children are being killed you can expect some to react wrongly. Just like some reacted wrongly over the belief cops were murdering black.men and getting away with it.

Both sides would be wrong to react by destruction and murder.

The fact that the left still refers to the bombing of an abortion clinic in the 80s as a response to the political violence unleashed by groups like Antifa (who they frequently tried to gaslight people into believing wasn't a group at all) is telling.

Counterprotests were largely unheard of prior to Trump. Post Trump, any right wing protest was something that was considered a viable target for the left. I believe in the right to protest...I don't believe in the right to block streets. People died because emergency vehicles were unable to reach people in need in 2020. Climate protesters have taken blocking roads to a new level. Meanwhile, completely peaceful truckers were dragged from their trucks and beaten in Canada. You may have noticed a lot fewer people promising to flee to Canada if Trump is elected.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Civil war" rhetoric? I know hundreds of conservatives, but not a single one who talks about a civil war.

I've heard talk of civil war from the right and left in media. It's less prominent than that of a "culture war" but it exists.