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FBI identifies Trump rally shooter as Thomas Matthew Crooks <--- Thread is about the perpetrator, the crime, and the motivation, not Trump

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iluvatar5150

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If this is just about saying "who technically started it" in terms of "who said a mean thing first"...fine you can pin that on early 90's GOP members' name calling and an AM radio show if that somehow makes anyone feel better?? (although, if we're setting that bar that low, we could probably go much further back than 1990)

But the impactful/significant escalation occurred in the early 2000's during George W Bush's tenure when half of the population thought it was acceptable to suggest that the president they didn't like was "in on" the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

I understand your point. Mine is that you're sort of blinded by your own experience - you weren't paying enough attention in the 90's (probably because you were what, 8yo?) and, like many folks from what I can gather, weren't aware of how extreme and how popular and influential a lot of this stuff was.




lol, I totally mis-read that at first glance.

It's comments like these that make me glad I still participate here.
 
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essentialsaltes

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the FBI cannot make a conclusion that the shooter acted alone if they do not have any evidence from social media, PMs, letters, etc.

when confronted with no evidence
They don't have 'no evidence'. They have no evidence (as yet) indicating a motive (or conspiracy).
 
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RileyG

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I honestly think the whole thing is surreal and I can’t believe we are in this place right now. I genuinely don’t think this kid has any comprehension of just what he’s done, which is terrifying. I’m praying for Trump, his family, those who died, their families, those who are injured, and our country as a whole.
I'm with you. Prayers for all, and for our nation.
 
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RileyG

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Thank you or posting this thread with the facts @essentialsales.

Take care.
 
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Pommer

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The left is putting out conspiracy theories that

a) the shooter was a "pedophile hunter" who wanted to kill Trump
b) the whole thing is a false-flag, staged

anyway ...

if we assume what we are being told by the FBI and others is true, that:

1. The shooter seemingly had no political or ideological motive, and that his politics were unclear
2. That classmates remember him as being relatively conservative in high-school
3. That he has virtually no social media or Internet footprint whatsoever, and that a discord server he had was taken down months ago--but contained no political content
4. No manifesto, notes, letters, or any kind of self-promotional material were found in his house
5. That this guy is a complete ghost
6. No evidence of insanity

THEN:

He did not act alone

These are the hallmarks of someone covering his tracks before a crime to protect the others who were involved.

A couple possibilites:

1. He was recruited online to commit the crime. Someone found a young loner who knew how to shoot, was not political, but badly needed money. The person who recruited him also gave him details as to where to set up and how to avoid detection. There could be 250k in BTC and a burner phone with Telegram on it inside some safety-deposit box somewhere.

who would recruit him? People working for Zelensky are the primary suspects imho. No one in the world stands to lose more if Trump is reelected.

2. The shooter was radicalized at Community College. There isn't any evidence that he belonged to Christian or pro-life groups, etc. He wasn't a college republican. Whatever group he was involved in was off-campus, and doesn't want their involvement known.

who would do this? ANTIFA --that organization exists to spread chaos and confusion in order to undermine the state. The shooter could have been in private contact with them.

Now all of this is speculation until we have more details and evidence

but the FBI/CIA could simply scrub everything and issue a report that says "we have no idea why the shooter targeted Trump. Nothing to see here"
My working “theory” is “kook w/ rifle”.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I understand your point. Mine is that you're sort of blinded by your own experience - you weren't paying enough attention in the 90's (probably because you were what, 8yo?) and, like many folks from what I can gather, weren't aware of how extreme and how popular and influential a lot of this stuff was.
"extreme" shouldn't be conflated with "impactful" in a political sense though, in terms of the devaluing of democratic norms.

Sometimes they overlap, but not always.

One could make an argument that David Duke harbored views that were far more extreme than anything you'd find in the current congress (or at least more extreme than any of them would fess up to publicly), yet, his impact on American politics, as a whole, was trivial (apart from the times people use his endorsements of another person as a way of bashing that other person)


When I'm talking about "impactful", I'm talking about the kinds of things that escalate generalized political trash talk/smearing and fighting, to that next level, where large numbers of people thinking it's okay to label the other team's guy as illegitimate or some sort of enemy of the state when they win. (or buy into wild conspiracy theories on a large scale)

When Bill Clinton won in 1992, there were people who obviously didn't like it, but I don't recall large swaths of the population suggesting that he was an illegitimate president or enemy of the state.

It was the 2000 election (I'm sure we all remember that election debacle) involving Bush v. Gore where we saw the escalation ramp up to what should be seen as the infancy of "election denial tolerance", when Maxine Waters and a dozen other house democrats tried to make motions to prevent the certification FL's electoral votes.

Their reasons? Of course, they claimed there was "voting irregularities" and that Bush "stole the election" Obviously things didn't get as out of hand, but does that sound a little familiar?

There was another dust-up over the 2004 election as well that seemed to escalate things even further:
Politico did a piece on it that was rather interesting:
Over the 16 years that followed the 2004 election, candidates have won and conceded; presidents have been inaugurated. But the loosely defined movement that launched back then has lived on. Most of its members are left-wing, though not all of them identify as Democrats. They’ve come to define their cause not around John Kerry’s rightful presidency, but around the idea of election integrity. Some are fixated on voter suppression; some subscribe to deep-state conspiracies about the manipulation of voting machines. What they share is a conviction that the 2004 election was a sham, and that it exposed a sweeping, anti-democratic cabal. Jonathan Simon, a onetime pollster-turned-lawyer-turned-chiropractor who worked with Freeman on his early analysis, summed up the prevailing view at a congressional hearing after the 2004 vote: “What we’re dealing with here, although the formality is all in place, is a stuffed animal, not a real animal—a taxidermic model of democracy.”

Any of the parts in bold ringing a few bells (with the language used and how they compare to some recent events?)

And when they did follow-up polling on the matter in mid-2006:
In polls conducted since December [2004], a little more than one-third of all Democrats have said that Bush stole the election

Do those kinds of percentages ring any bells?


The stunts in 2000, followed by the "election denial becoming socially acceptable in 2004", are what set us down this particular path...much more than anything Jerry Falwell or Rush Limbaugh ever said.
 
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wing2000

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BETHEL PARK, PA. — Federal investigators have determined that the rifle used in an apparent assassination attempt on former president Donald Trump on Saturday was legally purchased by the gunman’s father in 2013, according to a person familiar with the investigation.

The 20-year-old gunman, Thomas Matthew Crooks, bought 50 rounds of ammunition at a local gun store the morning of the shooting, according to this person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share information that has not been released publicly.

 
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wing2000

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The shooter was spotted over two minutes before he fired a shot and local law enforcement couldn’t get the message to the SS

Where did you see the timeline for the above information?
 
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iluvatar5150

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When Bill Clinton won in 1992, there were people who obviously didn't like it, but I don't recall large swaths of the population suggesting that he was an illegitimate president or enemy of the state.

That's because you weren't exposed to their (or, "our", I suppose) media.

For whatever reason, there seems to be a big wall between conservative (esp religious) media and everybody else, where outsiders never really get a glimpse over the wall, regardless of how many people are inside the wall. I saw this when the Tea Party took off - "mainstream society" was surprised by the new movement, when it wasn't really new at all. It was just the Limbaugh crowd getting tv time.

I don't recall anybody calling Clinton "illegitimate" as in he didn't win the election, but "enemy of the state" or similar sentiments were extremely common.
 
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essentialsaltes

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wing2000

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I saw reports on that. It clearly sounds to me like law enforcement dropped the ball. No excuses. I listened to an interesting speech from Matthew Murphy who is a retired Green Beret and level 1 sniper in counter assassinations voice his two cents on what happened. Dan Bongino (who is a former Secret Service agent) stated that a decent sniper can easily hit a target out to 500 yards or more so why is the Secret Service claiming the building the shooter used to fire at Trump (which was a little over 100 yards away) wasn't their responsibility? I can't repeat what Dan said after that. Let's just say he is furious! It all smells fishy to me and it will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

The Secret Service, FBI, DHS have not issued any statements (that I know of) on the security failure. The Secret Service was the primary agency in charge and thus, ultimately accountable for screening the area prior and during the rally.

I do recall reading (no longer have the link) that the Secret Service would have preferred to have two more teams on site...but due to resource issues, they relegated that role to local law enforcement.
 
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wing2000

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Brihaha

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how convenient

Well, it's all the evidence affords us presently. A kid with a rifle. Investigators use evidence and facts to shape theories. Some people like to shape their evidence and facts to suit their theories. It doesn't work well when we do that.
 
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essentialsaltes

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RDKirk

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the FBI cannot make a conclusion that the shooter acted alone if they do not have any evidence from social media, PMs, letters, etc.

when confronted with no evidence and material, one cannot simply say "well I guess he acted alone"!

logic dictates that zero evidence means covering tracks, and that means others might be involved
No, if there is no evidence that he acted with anyone else, logic dictates that he acted alone. We don't know that there is zero evidence...we only know that there is little evidence that he behaved abnormally.
 
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rjs330

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conspiracy theories flood the internet, creating dangerous ‘spiral’


[The] claims typically came from random social media users — the writers casting aspersions or seeking to affix blame based on their place in the nation’s intensely polarized political landscape.

The conspiracies formed two now familiar camps — one blaming the “deep state” for what happened, the other claiming without evidence that the shooting was not what it seemed.

“Seemed staged,” one social media user wrote.

But even some elected officials joined with false claims. “Joe Biden sent the orders,” Rep. Mike Collins (R-Ga.) wrote on X, the social media platform.

“What’s always interesting to me about moments like this is that digital sleuths, be they everyday people, be they politically motivated online trolls … we’re all looking in the same place for reliable true and correct information,” said Joan Donovan, a professor of journalism and emerging media studies at Boston University and founder of the Critical Internet Studies Institute. “What’s hard, I think, for the everyday person, is what they’re really looking for is verified information that they can use.”

The hot takes on the internet create a ripe breeding ground for increased division and potential violence, Nisbet said.

“We see each other as enemies, not as fellow Americans,” Nisbet said. “If the other side is immoral, not human, is an existential threat to us and to our country, then it is morally OK to take violent action against them.”

One of the main drivers of political violence is perception — how violent each side thinks the other is, Nisbet said. [Producing a vicious cycle.]
I have to it's interesting you post this right after posting something about the right wing terrorism and how dangerous and violent they are. Makes one wonder what's next.
 
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