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Could Peter have done otherwise?

ViaCrucis

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Foreknowledge =/= fatalism.

The unregenerate man has no freedom of the will as it pertains to divine things, and therefore cannot cooperate with God in his regeneration; regeneration is therefore the monergistic work of God. That does not, however, translate to man lacking any freedom in regard to his own actions and behaviors. Otherwise we make God the author of sin, and that is blasphemy.

The Lord's own knowledge of Peter's actions before Peter took them is not that Peter was fated nor determined to deny Christ, that God in His own sovereign will ordained that Peter would deny Christ, this would make God responsible for Peter's failure. Peter's failure is Peter's, known by God but not ordained by God.

When the Lutheran fathers sought to make clear what it is to be confessed as Evangelical faith, as the controversies between the Philippists and Flaccians erupted; care and consideration and deliberation was made to deny where each side erred, and to affirm where each side spoke truth. Thus in the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord the Evangelical fathers write,

"Namely, that in spiritual and divine things the intellect, heart, and will of the unregenerate man are utterly unable, by their own natural powers, to understand, believe, accept, think, will, begin, effect, do, work, or concur in working anything, but they are entirely dead to what is good, and corrupt, so that in man’s nature since the Fall, before regeneration, there is not the least spark of spiritual power remaining, nor present, by which, of himself, he can prepare himself for God’s grace, or accept the offered grace, nor be capable of it for and of himself, or apply or accommodate himself thereto, or by his own powers be able of himself, as of himself, to aid, do, work, or concur in working anything towards his conversion, either wholly, or half, or in any, even the least or most inconsiderable part; but that he is the servant [and slave] of sin, John 8:34, and a captive of the devil, by whom he is moved, Eph. 2:2; 2 Tim. 2:26. Hence the natural free will according to its perverted disposition and nature is strong and active only with respect to what is displeasing and contrary to God." - Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, Article II.7

It is not the rejection of all or any manner of freedom to the human will, as though man were an automaton, that his choice of attire or breakfast cereal of choice in the morning were determined beforehand. Nor that when man sins, such as when committing adultery or murder or lying that he was determined to so act; but this he does by his own fallen volition; and so guilt is properly ascribed to himself.

It is only in regard to regeneration, to his salvation, his conversion, his justification and redemption that he is entirely unable to will; for the unregenerate will of man is entirely held in bondage, captive to the passions and lusts of the flesh; and therefore unable to act, think, work, etc in any way whatsoever so as to contribute anything to his salvation and redemption in Christ. It is wholly and entirely the work of God, by His grace alone, working and creating faith--and therefore creating a new man, a creature born anew in Christ--that man is made alive to God in Christ: saved. So that by grace alone, through faith alone, a man is saved and justified; on Christ's account alone.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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So that by grace alone, through faith alone, a man is saved and justified; on Christ's account alone.
And yet a man can still resist and reject that grace, that gift of faith, just as Peter freely denied Christ in the moment.
 
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FireDragon76

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How did He know?

From a Molinist perspective, God knows all possible futures, but that isn't the same as determining the future. There is still room for creaturely agency.
 
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FireDragon76

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And yet a man can still resist and reject that grace, that gift of faith, just as Peter freely denied Christ in the moment.

We should be careful not to over-read soteriology into Peter's denial.

Peter's denial doesn't imply he wasn't elected to salvation or didn't have faith, and that's the important point in Lutheran and Reformed theology. Peter's denial is not the last word, it is tentatio or trial that will ultimately shape who Peter becomes. People are psychologically complicated beings. This isn't something that just goes away simply because we are regenerated. Doubt and faith are interrelated, doubt is just the shadow side of faith.

My pastor gave a sermon once on the short story, The Giving Tree, and I think that helps put Peter's denial in perspective. Jesus, as the Suffering Servant, chose to be misunderstood, used and betrayed by his friends. But he still loved them. And that love redeems us, despite our failures, because God's love is eternal and unchanging.

 
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fhansen

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We should be careful not to over-read soteriology into Peter's denial.

Peter's denial doesn't imply he wasn't elected to salvation or didn't have faith, and that's the important point in Lutheran and Reformed theology. Peter's denial is not the last word, it is tentatio or trial that will ultimately shape who Peter becomes. People are psychologically complicated beings. This isn't something that just goes away simply because we are regenerated. Doubt and faith are interrelated, doubt is just the shadow side of faith.

My pastor gave a sermon once on the short story, The Giving Tree, and I think that helps put Peter's denial in perspective. Jesus, as the Suffering Servant, chose to be misunderstood, used and betrayed by his friends. But he still loved them. And that love redeems us, despite our failures, because God's love is eternal and unchanging.

Nothing is the last word -unless and until we've persevered in our rejection to the end. And while we know the outcome of Peter's denials, no one, save God, can predict whether or not they'll persevere unto salvation. God loves all; not all will be saved. Not all will come to faith and repentance, not all will remain there, remain in Him. That's what we know, and what we must live according to.
 
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FireDragon76

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Nothing is the last word -unless and until we've persevered in our rejection to the end. And while we know the outcome of Peter's denials, no one, save God, can predict whether or not they'll persevere unto salvation. God loves all; not all will be saved. Not all will come to faith and repentance, not all will remain there, remain in Him. That's what we know, and what we must live according to.

I disagree with Catholic moralism or rigorism as it obscures the Gospel. Good works are an aspirational ideal, not a requirement, for justification.
 
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fhansen

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I disagree with Catholic moralism or rigorism as it obscures the Gospel. Good works are an aspirational ideal, not a requirement, for justification.
Ok, and I find that to be uncatholic, unscriptural, and unpatristic, with Protestant theology dong the obscuring. I won't apologize for the fact that morality simply continues to play its role in the new covenant; it's not as if we can dismiss it now. Grace gives us the authentic means to believe, and to obey, and to do whatever God requires of us. He just refuses to outright compel us to do anything even if we cannot possibly begin to do the right thing apart from Him, from grace.
 
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o_mlly

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I disagree with Catholic moralism or rigorism as it obscures the Gospel. Good works are an aspirational ideal, not a requirement, for justification.
I rather think that your tradition plainly obscures the Gospel: Matthew 25:41-46.

Both the goats and the sheep believed but the goats did not do good works. They, being unjustified, eternally dismissed themselves from God's friendship.
 
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Hammster

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Ok? Jesus, the Truth, nailed him with the truth. An inevitably convicting experience.
Okay. Let’s say that Jesus knew, but didn’t say anything. The outcome would have gone a different way. But He did say something, so we ended up the way it did. So this is more than just “Jesus knew what he would do.”
 
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fhansen

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In Catholic teaching God wants more from and for us than faith and a grateful forgiven sinner -with no demands to overcome sin, but He wants us to reciprocate by becoming like Him, which He gives all the reason and the grace for us to do. Properly understood, God's purpose is for man to come to love, which overcomes sin and does the right thing by its nature. That's His requirement, and He, alone, knows when its been sufficiently satisfied although His word gives us some very good guidelines.
 
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Hammster

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From a Molinist perspective, God knows all possible futures, but that isn't the same as determining the future. There is still room for creaturely agency.
Molinism is nonsense. And it is determining the future.
 
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FireDragon76

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Ok, and I find that to be uncatholic, unscriptural, and unpatristic, with Protestant theology dong the obscuring. I won't apologize for the fact that morality simply continues to play its role in the new covenant; it's not as if we can dismiss it now. Grace gives us the authentic means to believe, and to obey, and to do whatever God requires of us. He just refuses to outright compel us to do anything even if we cannot possibly begin to do the right thing apart from Him, from grace.

I disagree that patristic theology is the final word on Christian doctrine. I think the Christian tradition should be seen as more dialogical than that.

I don't think the notion of good works as an aspirational ideal should be scoffed at. People need ideals and virtues to live by and flourish as human beings. Protestantism isn't antinomian, but neither does it accept legalism as the basis for justification.
 
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FireDragon76

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In Catholic teaching God wants more from and for us than faith and a grateful forgiven sinner -with no demands to overcome sin, but He wants us to reciprocate by becoming like Him, which He gives all the reason and the grace for us to do. Properly understood, God's purpose is for man to come to love, which overcomes sin and does the right thing by its nature. That's His requirement, and He, alone, knows when its been sufficiently satisfied although His word gives us some very good guidelines.

God overcame sin through God's own love. We participate in that love through faith.
 
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fhansen

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God overcame sin through God's own love. We participate in that love through faith.
Okay, we enter His love through faith; faith and love are not equivalent in other words, or inseparable. And then we must remain in Him in order for that love to be operative in us. He doesn't want to hold on to it, He wants to share it. And this love is the true mark of justice or righteousness in us. He overcomes sin in and through us as we participate in that work, not merely doing it for us.

And love, necessarily, in order to be love, is a choice, It's a gift of grace, and a human choice to accept, embrace, and express. that gift.
 
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FireDragon76

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Okay, we enter His love through faith; faith and love are not equivalent in other words, or inseparable. And then we must remain in Him in order for that love to be operative in us. He doesn't want to hold on to it, He wants to share it. And this love is the true mark of justice or righteousness in us. He overcomes sin in and through us as we participate in that work, not merely doing it for us.

And love, necessarily, in order to be love, is a choice, It's a gift of grace, and a human choice to accept, embrace, and express. that gift.

I don't experience love as a choice. In fact that notion seems odd to me, and contradicts my own experience. Love is more than Aristotle's habitus, and I think this is where Catholic theology went off the rails, trying to reduce Christianity to a legal system focused on inculcating external obedience, to the exclusive of mystical vision and the inner life (and there's plenty of evidence for that, for instance, the persecution of the Quietists and Illuminationists being a natural outcome of emphasizing external obedience to religion).
 
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bling

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Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
— Matthew 26:33-35

Could Peter have stuck to his guns and shown Jesus that He was wrong?
There are prophecies about what God will do, which are contingent on what man will do (Jer. 18), but Jesus is prophesying what man (Peter) will do so that is what Peter did in man's future. Jesus is just stating Peter's free will choice he "made" in the future.
This choice has not been made as far as Peter is concerned, but as far as God (residing outside of time) is concerned it is pure history and history cannot be changed.
It has been shown and never not shown that time is relative, so since God at the end of time knows everything including all free will choices made throughout time, he knows historically what choice Peter made and can send that information back to Jesus at an earlier time.
 
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Hammster

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There are prophecies about what God will do, which are contingent on what man will do (Jer. 18), but Jesus is prophesying what man (Peter) will do so that is what Peter did in man's future. Jesus is just stating Peter's free will choice he "made" in the future.
This choice has not been made as far as Peter is concerned, but as far as God (residing outside of time) is concerned it is pure history and history cannot be changed.
It has been shown and never not shown that time is relative, so since God at the end of time knows everything including all free will choices made throughout time, he knows historically what choice Peter made and can send that information back to Jesus at an earlier time.
But Jesus affected Peter’s choice. How do you deal with that?
 
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fhansen

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I don't experience love as a choice.
Sometimes I think we just want everything to be easy, which means no change. I most certainly have experienced love to be a choice. It's most often when I go beyond what I just feel like doing, and, in fact, do what I'd otherwise prefer not to do. I allow love in that case to modify my actions, doing what it dictates instead of what I might want to do. Then those kinds of choices arise regularly in life.
 
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