Could Peter have done otherwise?

[Always in His Presence]

I’ve made my point. Thanks for conversing with me

 

[The Liturgist]

And there are more than just one or two who hold Masters degrees in Theology. (including myself)

I thought you said you had an MDiv?

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe that man is free to make free choices based on his nature. I also believe that God is sovereign over all choices.

I would agree with that insofar as God knows what choice we will make, and can, owing to omnipotence, override a choice through persuasion or direct intervention, and even delegate this authority to His angels. That being said, the sole area of difference is that I do believe God does not compel us to love Him, or to make other soteriologically essential decisions, although He does know who will chose to love him and who will not.

 

[The Liturgist]

Did He foreknow that He’d foreknow?

I would say yes, but the way in which I say yes would be rejected by others because of a difference in opinion as to how we apply the Christological principle of communicatio idiomatum and the deity of Christ - characteristics of His divine nature or His human nature cannot be spoken of in isolation without risking Nestorianism, with, some argue, certain exceptions relating to immutability and omniscience, which would apply here.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I thought you said you had an MDiv?

You earn a ThM on the way to your MDiv.

A good advisor will guide you through the process. It took me one additional semester.

 

[Hammster]

Where then is God’s sovereignty?

Gods will over rule Peter’s will to not deny Christ, but GOD not over rule a Christians will to reach the lost?

Let’s look at Joseph. His brothers wanted to murder him. Would that have fulfilled God’s plan? No. Would Potiphar’s wife being honorable fulfilled God’s plan? No. Etc. We can see all these events line up to fulfill God’s plan. Decisions were made. And from our point of view, they were made freely. But what did Joseph say?

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
— Genesis 50:20

 

[Hammster]

I would agree with that insofar as God knows what choice we will make, and can, owing to omnipotence, override a choice through persuasion or direct intervention, and even delegate this authority to His angels. That being said, the sole area of difference is that I do believe God does not compel us to love Him, or to make other soteriologically essential decisions, although He does know who will chose to love him and who will not.

I don’t believe that God compels us to love Him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you not think that Peter’s denial was planned?

"Prophesied" and "planned" have different meanings.

- **Prophesied** refers to something that has been predicted or foretold, often with a sense of divine or supernatural insight.
- **Planned** refers to something that has been arranged or decided upon in advance, usually through human intention and effort.

While both terms involve looking ahead to the future, "prophesied" implies a prediction, often beyond human control, whereas "planned" implies a deliberate and intentional arrangement.

 

[Hammster]

"Prophesied" and "planned" have different meanings.

- **Prophesied** refers to something that has been predicted or foretold, often with a sense of divine or supernatural insight.
- **Planned** refers to something that has been arranged or decided upon in advance, usually through human intention and effort.

While both terms involve looking ahead to the future, "prophesied" implies a prediction, often beyond human control, whereas "planned" implies a deliberate and intentional arrangement.

I have a higher view of God’s sovereignty, it appears.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have a higher view of God’s sovereignty, it appears.

Please explain what your view is.

 

[Hammster]

Please explain what your view is.

He controls all things.

 

[FenderTL5]

Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
— Matthew 26:33-35

Could Peter have stuck to his guns and shown Jesus that He was wrong?

Yes. Peter could have chosen either path, his freewill was fully intact. It's within the realm of plausibility that Peter actually believed what he said of himself. He was resolved, at the time, that he would follow regardless.

Yet, Jesus knew Peter's failings and weakness. In short, Christ knew his heart. He knew that when the fat hit the fire Peter would be a coward and deny Him. I also believe that Jesus knew the remorse Peter would experience afterwards and that his repentance would allow Peter to become one of the most effective witnesses of the Gospel ever.
There's no determinism here, but there is a dramatic example of the omniscience of God/Jesus.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

He controls all things.

What does that mean, though. When you say that God controls all things in what way does God control them all. Is it always the same way.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don’t believe that God compels us to love Him.

On this we agree.

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, argued that it was the one thing God could not do, since love is by nature voluntary.

I would argue God being omnipotent could overcome such a limitation, but does not, just as the principle of divine immutability should not be read as “God cannot change” but rather “does not change” in order to protect divine omnipotence.

 

[The Liturgist]

You earn a ThM on the way to your MDiv.

A good advisor will guide you through the process. It took me one additional semester.

Yes, I know, I have an MDiv. Although I will say not all seminaries do that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don’t believe that God compels us to love Him.

When you said that God controls everything what would control mean in the instance of Christians' love for God.

 

[ozso]

How did Jesus know He would even tell him? Did He know it in the same way He knew Peter would deny Him?

That's common trait between a parent and child. Being one step ahead of what they're going to say, ask and do.

 

[Hammster]

Yes. Peter could have chosen either path, his freewill was fully intact. It's within the realm of plausibility that Peter actually believed what he said of himself. He was resolved, at the time, that he would follow regardless.

Yet, Jesus knew Peter's failings and weakness. In short, Christ knew his heart. He knew that when the fat hit the fire Peter would be a coward and deny Him. I also believe that Jesus knew the remorse Peter would experience afterwards and that his repentance would allow Peter to become one of the most effective witnesses of the Gospel ever.
There's no determinism here, but there is a dramatic example of the omniscience of God/Jesus.

That doesn’t make sense. You are saying he could have proven Christ wrong.

 

[Hammster]

What does that mean, though. When you say that God controls all things in what way does God control them all. Is it always the same way.

No. Everything that happens is either because He caused it or allowed it.

 

[Hammster]

When you said that God controls everything what would control mean in the instance of Christians' love for God.

He freely gives new hearts to men by which they freely love Him.