Baptist Schism: What Do You Guys Think

[Offline4Better.]

Hello folks. As a Catholic, who likes all branches of Christianity, I am wondering what you guys think about the Baptist Schism of SBC and it is sad how churches are getting split up over this woke stuff happening nowadays. Methodists broke up in 2022-2023, Lutherans are getting broken up, Presbyterians are getting changed. I am scared that this will happen with all the denominations over the next few years. Not an end times doomer here, but it does seem like we are close to the End Times. As your Catholic brother, I pray that the Baptist church keeps the woke stuff out. Even the Catholic church is slowly having some LGTV stuff seep in.

Prayers for both Protestants and Catholics, that all of Christianity stays true to the Bible, and is not swayed by modern ideologies.

Disclaimer: Love the Sinner, not the sin. We must try to turn these LGTV folks away from their sins.

Love The Sinner, but Hate The Sin

Hello folks. Remember this classic Christian adage? "Love the sinner, hate the sin"? Today, we will delve into just that, using two Bible verses. This is something that I sometimes struggle with, but hey, let us dive into Amos and Jude together, brothers and sisters. Date June 18, 2024 |...

www.christianforums.com

Baptist News/Opinion Piece (2023):

The SBC 2023: When dogma trumps gospel – Baptist News Global

In 1964, Addie Davis was ordained to the gospel ministry by Watts Street Baptist Church, Durham, N.C., becoming the first female ordained by a congregation affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. A new generation of female ordinands soon followed, not...

baptistnews.com

Methodist Schism (2022):

One fourth of United Methodist churches in US have left in schism over LGBTQ ban. What happens now?

United Methodist churches had a five-year window to leave the denomination over disputes involving its bans on same-sex marriage and ordaining LGBTQ persons.

apnews.com

Presbyterian Schism (2012):

These Churches Have Split Over LGBTQ Issues—As Hundreds More United Methodist Congregations Leave The Denomination

Conservative members of some of the largest Protestant churches in the United States have formed their own rival denominations over divisions on LGBTQ issues.

www.forbes.com

Here are two prayers for the protection of churches for us Christians (first one is Protestant, second prayer is for Catholics, though we are all one in Christ)

Protestant Prayer: 10 Prayers for the Church - Powerful Praying Words The church quite simply is the body of believers all around the world who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. In a world that is often very dark, and in times that we know the end is drawing nearer, may we be found faithfully praying for one another until Christ’s return. Here are 10... www.ibelieve.com Dear God, We pray for every leader in our churches around the world – give them your wisdom and discernment as they lead. We pray that their hearts would be directed first to you, that they would recognize where their true help and strength come from. We ask that you would guard their coming and going, that you would be their refuge and their peace. We pray that you would surround each one with wise counsel, that they would be humble and kind, patient and loving through their actions and words. We pray that their faith in you would be unwavering. We pray for their families – give them great strength, protection, and grace for the days ahead. We ask that you would continue to pave the way for strong, faithful men and women to serve your people. We ask you for the outpouring of your Spirit to raise up those you’ve chosen to lead. In Jesus’ Name, Amen.

Catholic Prayer: Prayer for a Holy Church and Priests - Prayers - Catholic Online O my Jesus, I beg You on behalf of the whole Church: Grant it love and the light of Your Spirit and give power to the words of priests so that hardened hearts might be brought to repentance and return to You, O Lord. Lord, give us holy priests; You Yourself maintain them in holiness. ... www.catholic.org O my Jesus, I beg You on behalf of the whole Church: Grant it love and the light of Your Spirit and give power to the words of priests so that hardened hearts might be brought to repentance and return to You, O Lord. Lord, give us holy priests; You Yourself maintain them in holiness. O Divine and Great High Priest, may the power of Your mercy accompany them everywhere and protect them from the devil's traps and snares which are continually being set for the souls of priests. May the power of Your mercy, O Lord, shatter and bring to naught all that might tarnish the sanctity of priests, for You can do all things. I ask You, Jesus, for a special blessing and for light for the priests before whom I will make my confessions throughout my lifetime. Amen.

 

[PloverWing]

For anyone who doesn't remember the details of the conservative reorganization of the SBC in the 1980s, the Wikipedia summary is pretty good and fits well with my memory of the events: Southern Baptist Convention conservative resurgence - Wikipedia

I was still a Southern Baptist at the time, and I followed the events closely while it was happening.

 

[Tuur]

Wouldn't consider Wikipedia reliable. The first cited article in the OP is an opinion piece and heavily slanted. The question is a basic one: Do you follow God's Word or not? This, we are told, is orthodoxy over the Gospel. But if we can't accept what God's Word says about some thing, can we accept what God's Word says about salvation?

 

[David Lamb]

I pray that the Baptist church keeps the woke stuff out. Even the Catholic church is slowly having some LGTV stuff seep in.

There really is no such thing as "the Baptist church", because one of the distinctives of baptists is that they believe in the autonomy (under God) of the local church. There's no such thing as a "baptist pope" or a "baptist bishop", and each local baptist church is responsible for appointing its own pastors and other office bearers. A local baptist church may choose to join a grouping of other baptist churches, such as the South Baptists in the USA, or the Baptist Union and the Grace Baptist Association here in the UK, but these groupings have no authority over the local church. If a local church finds that a group of churches it is affiliated to has started doing or teaching something the local church cannot in good conscience agree with, that church may decide to leave the grouping.

 

[Offline4Better.]

There really is no such thing as "the Baptist church", because one of the distinctives of baptists is that they believe in the autonomy (under God) of the local church. There's no such thing as a "baptist pope" or a "baptist bishop", and each local baptist church is responsible for appointing its own pastors and other office bearers. A local baptist church may choose to join a grouping of other baptist churches, such as the South Baptists in the USA, or the Baptist Union and the Grace Baptist Association here in the UK, but these groupings have no authority over the local church. If a local church finds that a group of churches it is affiliated to has started doing or teaching something the local church cannot in good conscience agree with, that church may decide to leave the grouping.

Yeah, I was a Protestant until 2022, and churches in general had more autonomy (Christian Missionary Alliance / nondenominational) was my denomination. Can these groupings kick out a rogue church, such as one that promotes LGBT?

 

[David Lamb]

Yeah, I was a Protestant until 2022, and churches in general had more autonomy (Christian Missionary Alliance / nondenominational) was my denomination. Can these groupings kick out a rogue church, such as one that promotes LGBT?

I assume that each grouping would have its own statement of faith, and a church which could no longer agree with it would not be able to remain in the grouping.

 

[Offline4Better.]

I assume that each grouping would have its own statement of faith, and a church which could no longer agree with it would not be able to remain in the grouping.

That is good.

 

[Tuur]

I assume that each grouping would have its own statement of faith, and a church which could no longer agree with it would not be able to remain in the grouping.

Very true. Yet when the president of a Baptist college promoted heretical views (concerning core Christian beliefs), it took a long time for the state Baptist association to act.

 

[9Rock9]

Yeah, I was a Protestant until 2022, and churches in general had more autonomy (Christian Missionary Alliance / nondenominational) was my denomination. Can these groupings kick out a rogue church, such as one that promotes LGBT?

Yes, Baptist associations can expel churches that violate certain rules such as teaching heresy or officiating same sex weddings.

However, since the local church is autonomous and retains the right to make its own decisions, the most Baptist associations can do is kick them out of the denomination. They can't remove the ministers, revoke ordination, nor can they shut down churches and confiscate property. All that really happens is that the church stops receiving benefits from being a part of the denomination (e.g. the SBC will no longer fund them.)

The SBC basically says, "Fine, do what you want, but you'll have to explain yourself to God on Judgment Day."

 

[Offline4Better.]

Yes, Baptist associations can expel churches that violate certain rules such as teaching heresy or officiating same sex weddings.

However, since the local church is autonomous and retains the right to make its own decisions, the most Baptist associations can do is kick them out of the denomination. They can't remove the ministers, revoke ordination, nor can they shut down churches and confiscate property. All that really happens is that the church stops receiving benefits from being a part of the denomination (e.g. the SBC will no longer fund them.)

The SBC basically says, "Fine, do what you want, but you'll have to explain yourself to God on Judgment Day."

It is good that the SBC can kick out any churches that teach heresy or condone gay marriage, and cutting funds is a good idea to weed out the woke churches. Do Baptist churches mainly receive funding from associations, or from local tithes?

 

[9Rock9]

It is good that the SBC can kick out any churches that teach heresy or condone gay marriage, and cutting funds is a good idea to weed out the woke churches. Do Baptist churches mainly receive funding from associations, or from local tithes?

I'm admittedly not super familiar with the process, but every Baptist church I've been to collects tithes. The tithe money is then forwarded to the local association and so on until reaches the SBC, which then redistributes funds as needed.

 

[PloverWing]

All that really happens is that the church stops receiving benefits from being a part of the denomination (e.g. the SBC will no longer fund them.)

Do Baptist churches mainly receive funding from associations, or from local tithes?

My memory from my Southern Baptist days is that the funding flows the other way: The congregation funds itself (though tithes and offerings), and then the congregation sends some of its funds to the Cooperative Program, which is the missions/ministry arm of the national SBC organization.

The idea is that, instead of each individual missionary having to raise their own funds (as is the case in some Baptist churches), SBC congregations collectively fund the Cooperative Program, which then pays missionaries so they can do their work.

 

[Offline4Better.]

I'm admittedly not super familiar with the process, but every Baptist church I've been to collects tithes. The tithe money is then forwarded to the local association and so on until reaches the SBC, which then redistributes funds as needed.

Interesting stuff. The Catholic church does a similar thing, where some of the tithe goes to the local church, community and missions, while other parts go to the Vatican (small percentage). I do not give to the Catholic church, as I am afraid that if the Vatican gets a woke pope after Francis passes away, that my money would support his stuff. But hey, it is good that the SBC redistributes funds as needed,

Where does the Vatican’s money come from?

The United States is the biggest donor to Peter's Pence, the fund allotted to the pope to carry out his mission.

aleteia.org

When you give to your parish, where does your money go? - TheCatholicSpirit.com

When you put your offering in the collection basket at Mass, make an electronic gift or give a special year-end donation to your parish, *92 cents of every dollar you give stays in your parish or supports initiatives as determined by your parish.

thecatholicspirit.com

 

[Offline4Better.]

My memory from my Southern Baptist days is that the funding flows the other way: The congregation funds itself (though tithes and offerings), and then the congregation sends some of its funds to the Cooperative Program, which is the missions/ministry arm of the national SBC organization.

The idea is that, instead of each individual missionary having to raise their own funds (as is the case in some Baptist churches), SBC congregations collectively fund the Cooperative Program, which then pays missionaries so they can do their work.

Missionaries are very important, so it is good that the SBC funds missionaries. Which countries do these missionaries typically visit?

 

[PloverWing]

Missionaries are very important, so it is good that the SBC funds missionaries. Which countries do these missionaries typically visit?

Oddly, I couldn't find a place on the SBC website that lists the countries where missionaries are currently serving. From what I could tell, SBC missionaries have served in most regions of the world. The page at (2020s - IMB) says that "Almost 25,000 Southern Baptist missionaries have been sent to 185 countries around the world since Southern Baptists sent their first missionaries to China in 1845." A few statistics are here: Fast Facts - IMB

 

[Offline4Better.]

Oddly, I couldn't find a place on the SBC website that lists the countries where missionaries are currently serving. From what I could tell, SBC missionaries have served in most regions of the world. The page at (2020s - IMB) says that "Almost 25,000 Southern Baptist missionaries have been sent to 185 countries around the world since Southern Baptists sent their first missionaries to China in 1845." A few statistics are here: Fast Facts - IMB

Wow, 185 countries is a lot, pretty much all over the planet, as there are just under 200 countries on our Earth. Imagine being a missionary in 1845, before airplanes, trains and cars. One would have to travel by sail, or steam ship if lucky. Must have been grueling back then.

Steamships were invented in the late 18th century, but became popularized during the mid-19th century:

The Origins of the Steamship

Steamships quickly replaced sails in the early 1800s. Learn more about the origins of steamships and the innovations that led to their creation.

science.howstuffworks.com

 

[JustaPewFiller]

My memory from my Southern Baptist days is that the funding flows the other way: The congregation funds itself (though tithes and offerings), and then the congregation sends some of its funds to the Cooperative Program, which is the missions/ministry arm of the national SBC organization.

The idea is that, instead of each individual missionary having to raise their own funds (as is the case in some Baptist churches), SBC congregations collectively fund the Cooperative Program, which then pays missionaries so they can do their work.

This is similar to how I've seen it work. I don't think there is a minimum (in either $ value or %) that a church has to give.
In most small SBC churches I've seen it goes something like this...
Tithes and offerings are taken up, counted, recorded and deposited. Of course, most churches have budget. But, in general..
A decent chunk of tithes and offerings the local church takes in goes toward running the local church. Payroll, supplies, bills, maintenance, etc.
Also whatever the church wants to do locally (events, local missions, local outreach etc) comes out of the tithes and offerings
Then there is however much the church decides to contributed to the various associations ( ie - local Baptist Association, State Baptist Association, SBC Cooperative Program etc). The amount sent to these varies by church - I know some SBC churches that contribute to the local association but not to the state and some that do the other way around (contribute to state but not local).

Another good question might be, "What does a local Baptist church get out of being a member of these associations (local, state, and SBC)?" But that might be another thread itself.

 

[Offline4Better.]

Isn't @Vambram part of the Baptist denomination? Is the Baptist church next in line to be infected by woke ideologies? Already the Lutherans and Methodists have been damaged by this far-left stuff.

 

[Vambram]

Isn't @Vambram part of the Baptist denomination? Is the Baptist church next in line to be infected by woke ideologies? Already the Lutherans and Methodists have been damaged by this far-left stuff.

The only churches with which I have been a member are independent fundamentalist Baptist churches. Also, I attended 2 different fundamentalist Baptist universities in the 80s. Unfortunately, I cannot speak with authority or experience about The Southern Baptist Convention. However, I do sincerely hope and pray that the SBC and also the independent Baptist churches stay away from woke influences while also take strong, Biblical stands against ALL of the woke stuff invading the culture.

 

[godisagardener]

This is similar to how I've seen it work. I don't think there is a minimum (in either $ value or %) that a church has to give.
In most small SBC churches I've seen it goes something like this...
Tithes and offerings are taken up, counted, recorded and deposited. Of course, most churches have budget. But, in general..
A decent chunk of tithes and offerings the local church takes in goes toward running the local church. Payroll, supplies, bills, maintenance, etc.
Also whatever the church wants to do locally (events, local missions, local outreach etc) comes out of the tithes and offerings
Then there is however much the church decides to contributed to the various associations ( ie - local Baptist Association, State Baptist Association, SBC Cooperative Program etc). The amount sent to these varies by church - I know some SBC churches that contribute to the local association but not to the state and some that do the other way around (contribute to state but not local).

Another good question might be, "What does a local Baptist church get out of being a member of these associations (local, state, and SBC)?" But that might be another thread itself.

You're basically spot on here.

As for what the local Associations provide (we have a three-county Association where I live) this article from Lifeway would be helpful:

5 Ways Local Associations Help Pastors