Did Jesus die on the day they killed the paschal lamb?

[notRusskiyMir]

Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.



Luke 22:8-13 — And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Mark 14:13-16 — And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Matthew 26:17-19 — Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.



What you're saying here is not clear. I can only assume you are referencing something to do with what you've already posted concerning the last supper being eaten at the beginning of the 14th when the calendar date changed at sunset on the 13th. But please clarify.

It should also be said that on the strength of "they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover" (John 18:28), it is concluded by many, including yourself, that it was the passover in John's gospel. But for some unfathomable reason, the strength of all the passages quoted above seem to have no relevance.

If you actually read what I wrote in the previous post, Edersheim gives a great breakdown of that passage.

Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, w

This would mean Jesus as killed on Nissan 15. That is clearly wrong. But, it goes on to say, "when the Passover must be killed" THAT is Nissan 14. So Mark 14:12 is not internally consistent. The Synoptics have a problem which John 19:14 addresses.

Luke 22:8-13 — And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover,

This is what the chabad citation addresses - see below. Jews then and now referred to Nissan 14 as 'Passover', due to the Paschal Lamb being slaughtered then. So, interpreted this way, the sequence of events do not conflict with John 19:14.

you are referencing something to do with what you've already posted concerning the last supper being eaten at the beginning of the 14th when the calendar date changed at sunset on the 13th.

The Last Supper was eaten at the beginning of Nissan 14, which is the evening of what was Nissan 13 calendar day. Christ was killed the afternoon of Nissan 14, the Day of Preparation (of the Passover). I get from this that the Day of Preparation - Nissan 14 - prepared us, the Faithful, for a new reality. A loving God and all that Christianity entails and the ability to join with Him via Holy Communion.

"they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover" (John 18:28), it is concluded by many, including yourself, that it was the passover in John's gospel.

I do not see a conflict here. See my first response in this comment.

Note the title of the chabad article. This is a quote:

"So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs.

The Name Change
Oddly, although the weeklong celebration is consistently called the Festival of Matzahs in the Torah, it has come to be known as Pesach, or Passover, in common parlance and even in our liturgy." As I stated several times, this resolves several 'conflicts' in conforming to John's statement. The unresolved one would be Mark 14:12, first part of it. At least I cannot resolve it.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/3283921/jewish/Why-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

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[PesachPup]

The passover is not about what man does (in worship) , but what God does for man. God delivered the children of Israel for their obedience in observing the night of Passover when the death angel came and slew the firstborn who were not observant to the command of God. They were delivered from death and given freedom. We are likewise delivered from death and given our freedom because of what Christ did for us.
1Co 11:23-24 KJV 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

It's not about the sacrifice, but the one who sacrificed himself for us. Jesus ate the paschal lamb on the same night he was betrayed.
PesachPup

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Orthodox believe in a 3 day Resurrection. Dying on a Friday doesn't satisfy that.

Pascha | St. Luke The Evangelist Orthodox Church

www.stlukeorthodox.com

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzahs -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

No, you are not correct. Your chronology for Orthodox rendering is wrong. We believe He died on the 14th (Friday), buried before sunset, rested in the tomb on Shabbat and raised after sunset (Pascha is midnight). That is 3 days. Friday before sunset, Saturday and Sunday. The last supper was on Thursday evening after sunset (which is actually Friday). All Orthodox know this. Go post your chronology above on the Orthodox board and you will see that you are wrong...I guess you did not read what was written at the bottom of the link you shared:
"The earliest evidence from scriptures and tradition suggest that Jesus was crucified and died on the 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan, a Friday. This means Jesus would have been resurrected on the 16th of Nisan, a Sunday."

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jesus ate the paschal lamb on the same night he was betrayed.

Show us the scripture that says that...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It wasn't illegal.

Yes it was...you should know that if you did research like you said you did...I have shown this to you previously. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4.1

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I didn't say Jesus was the Hagigah. YOU can't seem to separate your theology and philosophy from the historical facts. He didn't have to die on the 14th to be our passover. And dying on the 15th doesn't make him something else. You're the one suggesting that, not me.

Ok then, under your theory NONE of the prophets matter as does any fulfillment mentioned in the Gospels...nice lol. Ridiculous...

 

[PesachPup]

The passover is not about what man does (in worship) , but what God does for man. God delivered the children of Israel for their obedience in observing the night of Passover when the death angel came and slew the firstborn who were not observant to the command of God. They were delivered from death and given freedom. We are likewise delivered from death and given our freedom because of what Christ did for us.
1Co 11:23-24 KJV 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

It's not about the sacrifice, but the one who sacrificed himself for us. Jesus ate the paschal lamb on the same night he was betrayed.
PesachPup

The feast of unleavened bread is about what God did for the children of Israel.

Exo 12:17-19 KJV 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. 19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

"FOR IN THIS SELFSAME DAY HAVE I BROUGHT YOU... OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT".

The SELFSAME DAY as what day? The same day they ate the Passover meal! Numbers 33:3 makes it known that they left Ramses on the morning of the 15th. The 15th began on the night before at sundown. They ate the Passover on the night before they left... on the 15th!.

Furthermore, FUB is celebrated as a remembrance of their deliverance from Egypt... that started with the night that the passover meal was eaten. Scripture makes it clear that it is to begin on the 15th and last for seven days. So when Exodus 12 says that it runs from the 14th day at evening until the 21st day at evening, we know that "the 14th day at evening", refers to the start of the 15th. The whole feast of unleavened bread is a remembrance of their deliverance from Egypt. It would be silly to think that it is to celebrated apart from their night (selfsame day) of deliverance.

Looking further at Numbers 33 we find:

Num 33:3-7 KJV 3 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. 4 For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. 5 And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth. 6 And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. 7 And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol.

On the 15th (1st day after the passover) they traveled from Ramses to Succoth. On the 2nd night, the 16th, they made camp. On the 2nd day, they journeyed from Succoth to Etham. On the 3rd night, the 17th, they made camp. On the 3rd day, they journeyed from Etham unto Pi'hahiroth, before Migdol. On the 4th night, the 18th, they crossed the Red Sea from Pihahiroth. On the 4th night! This 4th night parallels the resurrection of Jesus, on the 3rd day after the crucifixion. This parallel is completely lost if one believes that Jesus was crucified on the 14th day when the lambs are offered. Furthermore, the fact that Jesus rose from the dead on the 4th night/day of the Feast of unleavened bread, [ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK] means that the 1st day of unleavened bread, the night on which the passover is ate, began at sundown on Wednesday and ended at sundown on Thursday...i.e., the 15th. Jesus was crucified on a Thursday, buried on a Friday (the preparation day for the sabbath) by Joseph of Arimathaea, and arose on the 1st day of the week.

Furthermore, the gospel of John is harmonized with the synopsis when one realizes that the "preparation of the passover" refers to the passover meal itself. How is that proven?
1. The passover meal must be eaten before the mornings sunrise. This was an ordinance instituted with the Exodus. None of it was to remain unto the morning.
2. Jesus was brought before Pilate three times. Once before sunrise and twice after sunrise.
A. On the 1st occasion, Pilate went out of the judgment hall, unto his accusers, so that they (his accusers) "... might eat the passover", before it was dawn. John 18:28-29.
B. On the 2nd occasion, it was after the rising of the sun. Matt 27:1;Mark 15:1. Luke 23:6-7.
C. The 3rd occasion was after Pilate sent Jesus unto Herod. Luke 23:11.

On the 2nd and 3rd occasions, Pilate judged Jesus "having examined him before you, Luke 23:14" from within the judgment hall. His accusers were with Jesus, standing before Pilate IN THE JUDGMENT HALL. The admonition that prevented them from entering the judgment hall (that they might eat the passover) only applied to the 1st encounter with Pilate because it was still the NIGHT of Passover when it must be eaten before dawn. Otherwise they would have defiled themselves on the 2nd and 3rd occasions with Pilate. The preparation of the passover, merely refers to the 1st day of unleavened bread, when it must be eaten before dawn.
Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"lol"ing at me is goading. You still haven't presented an argument. Calling me wrong and laughing is not an intelligent rebuttal. Say something intelligent or be quiet.

I HAVE presented lots of arguments. You just don't think I have because they disprove your theory. That is all you have left.

 

[PesachPup]

Show us the scripture that says that...

Luk 22:15 KJV And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Luk 22:15 KJV And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

What do you think that means? What did He mean by saying that? WHY would He say that?? No mention of lamb anywhere...

 

[notRusskiyMir]

The passover is not about what man does (in worship) , but what God does for man. God delivered the children of Israel for their obedience in observing the night of Passover when the death angel came and slew the firstborn who were not observant to the command of God. They were delivered from death and given freedom. We are likewise delivered from death and given our freedom because of what Christ did for us.
1Co 11:23-24 KJV 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

It's not about the sacrifice, but the one who sacrificed himself for us. Jesus ate the paschal lamb on the same night he was betrayed.
PesachPup

That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said

Yes, Judas betrayed Jesus on the same night (it was arranged earlier, but it was executed late that evening or early the next morning) that the Eucharist was established. That would be Nissan 14.

Jesus ate the paschal lamb on the same night he was betrayed.

There is nothing to suggest this from your citation.

 

[PesachPup]

What do you think that means? What did He mean by saying that? WHY would He say that?? No mention of lamb anywhere...

That he ate the Passover meal with them. It doesn't say it was a lamb that was eaten that night. But it was a lamb that was eaten on the night of the Exodus. This night was to be kept as a memorial to that night, throughout their generations. I can't say positively that it was a lamb, but that is what is to be remembered. Can you provide scripture that says to use anything else, on subsequent passover meals?
The PuP

 

[notRusskiyMir]

No, you are not correct. Your chronology for Orthodox rendering is wrong. We believe He died on the 14th (Friday), buried before sunset, rested in the tomb on Shabbat and raised after sunset (Pascha is midnight). That is 3 days. Friday before sunset, Saturday and Sunday. The last supper was on Thursday evening after sunset (which is actually Friday). All Orthodox know this. Go post your chronology above on the Orthodox board and you will see that you are wrong...I guess you did not read what was written at the bottom of the link you shared:
"The earliest evidence from scriptures and tradition suggest that Jesus was crucified and died on the 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan, a Friday. This means Jesus would have been resurrected on the 16th of Nisan, a Sunday."

Show your Orthodox evidence - the poorly worded citation from the goa website is not good. I showed mine.
I showed that on Holy Thursday evening, the Passion is read up to and including the Temple Authorities asking Pilate for a guard the next day. Why would that be on a Thursday?
Also, Holy Thursday morning, the Institution of the Eucharist is commemorated. Why on Thursday morning and not Wednesday evening? In Roman times, the days were figured from the sunset the day before. So, technically Thursday morning was the same day as Wednesday evening. The Roman calendar was still used when the liturgy was prepared. Also, just speculating, that the Church wanted the Eucharist to be commemorated during the day, as Christ is the light of the World. Therefore there is a healing service on Holy Wednesday evening.
The article I provided was not accurate in all things. You are trying to make Orthodox into Roman Catholics. Yes, Jesus died on Nissan 14. That day was a Thursday.

 

[tonychanyt]

I can't say positively that it was a lamb, but that is what is to be remembered.

See Jesus ate the Paschal lamb before he was crucified and follow up there.

 

[AFrazier]

This would mean Jesus as killed on Nissan 15. That is clearly wrong. But, it goes on to say, "when the Passover must be killed" THAT is Nissan 14. So Mark 14:12 is not internally consistent. The Synoptics have a problem which John 19:14 addresses.

This is what the chabad citation addresses - see below. Jews then and now referred to Nissan 14 as 'Passover', due to the Paschal Lamb being slaughtered then. So, interpreted this way, the sequence of events do not conflict with John 19:14.

The Last Supper was eaten at the beginning of Nissan 14, which is the evening of what was Nissan 13 calendar day. Christ was killed the afternoon of Nissan 14, the Day of Preparation (of the Passover). I get from this that the Day of Preparation - Nissan 14 - prepared us, the Faithful, for a new reality. A loving God and all that Christianity entails and the ability to join with Him via Holy Communion.

I do not see a conflict here. See my first response in this comment.

Note the title of the chabad article. This is a quote:

"So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs.

The Name Change
Oddly, although the weeklong celebration is consistently called the Festival of Matzahs in the Torah, it has come to be known as Pesach, or Passover, in common parlance and even in our liturgy." As I stated several times, this resolves several 'conflicts' in conforming to John's statement. The unresolved one would be Mark 14:12, first part of it. At least I cannot resolve it.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/3283921/jewish/Why-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

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What is your experience? What are your credentials? What have you written? How many books? How long have you been researching this topic? How many books are on your bookshelf?

I’m honestly getting about sick and tired of people telling me I’m wrong when I’m quoting things that are in plain black and white text. I’m tired of the arrogant and presumptuous attitudes. I DO know what I’m talking about. My bibliography is almost forty pages. I have thousands of dollars invested in research material. I’ve read hundreds of books on this subject.

Nothing you’re saying is any new revelation. I’ve read it all before. I’ve seen the strengths and weaknesses. I’ve weighed them and found them wanting.

What I’ve told you is correct. I’m done arguing with you and everyone else. If you prefer your fantasies over hard fact and scripture, have at it. But you’re wrong. And in disseminating incorrect information, you further the cause of atheists and similar who want to disparage the Bible.

 

[PesachPup]

See Jesus ate the Paschal lamb before he was crucified and follow up there.

I have addressed all of your points, with scripture, including the fact that the feast of unleavened bread and the time for eating the passover meal, both begin at the same time... at the start of the 15th. The lambs were sacrificed in the late afternoon just before the passover meal was to be eaten, on the 14th. Jesus was brought before Pilate, the 1st time in the early morning hours of (nighttime Thursday) passover when Jesus and his disciples ate the meal that must be consumed/ finished before dawn. That was on the 15th, approximately 10 or 11 hours after the start of the feast of unleavened bread.

Joseph of Arimathea came to Pilate, when it became evening,

Mar 15:42-43 KJV 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

When the evening/end of Thursday had come, it was now a new day. It was the preparation day for the weekly Sabbath. It was now Friday, the 2nd day of the Feast. Friday evening would start the 3rd day [and the weekly Sabbath] and Saturday evening would be the start of the 4th day of unleavened bread, concluding at sundown on Sunday.
Jesus ate the Passover meal with his disciples on Wednesday evening, the 1st day of unleavened bread. He arose on the 4th day of the Feast. I have given scripture for all of this [except for the part about Joseph, just now]
The PuP

 

[AFrazier]

Show us the scripture that says that...

You’ve been shown that scripture a hundred times. You just choose not to acknowledge it.

 

[George95]

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