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Did Jesus die on the day they killed the paschal lamb?

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AFrazier

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I used Wikipedia because it was readily available.

Look, I gave the Orthodox Christian version of the Passion sequence. It follows John 19:14. Catholics and protestants follow the Synoptics.

I gave the full daily sequence which is straight-forward and consistent with Jewish practice - I provided the link - one more time - below. You can get huffy all you want.

Your way results in inconsistencies with Jewish practice, or improbable outcomes such as Jesus at a Last Supper that is a seder and BEFORE He is killed. My way, the Orthodox way, Christ is the Paschal Lamb. And there is a 3 day Resurrection.

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Any other reckoning has Christ in the tomb for less than 2 days - Jewish and Roman basis.

So, I'll take the Orthodox Church's 1770? years against your 30 years. I don't want you to concede anything. I do want you to recognize that what I have presented is accepted by 25 per cent + of Christianity for 1770 (depends where you consider authoritative starting point) years.

First of all, orthodox means nothing to me. I've studied all of that, and reformed theology, and systematic theology. Keep in mind that these are the same people who determined that the eucharist actually turned into meat in your mouth, and executed people who believed otherwise. Other orthodoxies, like the Roman Catholics, sold sin for profit (a.k.a. indulgences). Orthodoxy embraces Mariology. Other orthodoxy embraces supralapsarianism. Honestly, it means nothing to me. It was men in positions of authority who came to conclusions and forced them on everyone else on pain of death in many cases. It doesn't make them right.

You did give a sequence. It is straightforward. It is not consistent with Jewish practice.

I wasn't being huffy. I was being direct. It honestly gets old feeling like I'm talking to the wind. What I was saying to you is that if I take the time to respond to you and answer to your comments or rebuttals, pay me the courtesy of considering what I have to say. As was once said, don't listen to answer. Listen to listen. Too many people only listen to see what they need to counter, what argument they need to overcome, without ever considering whether it needs to be countered or argued in the first place.

Moving forward, you don't have to keep posting your sequence. I read it. It wasn't ignored. It was disagreed with.
 
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AFrazier

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I used Wikipedia because it was readily available.

Look, I gave the Orthodox Christian version of the Passion sequence. It follows John 19:14. Catholics and protestants follow the Synoptics.

I gave the full daily sequence which is straight-forward and consistent with Jewish practice - I provided the link - one more time - below. You can get huffy all you want.

Your way results in inconsistencies with Jewish practice, or improbable outcomes such as Jesus at a Last Supper that is a seder and BEFORE He is killed. My way, the Orthodox way, Christ is the Paschal Lamb. And there is a 3 day Resurrection.

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Any other reckoning has Christ in the tomb for less than 2 days - Jewish and Roman basis.

So, I'll take the Orthodox Church's 1770? years against your 30 years. I don't want you to concede anything. I do want you to recognize that what I have presented is accepted by 25 per cent + of Christianity for 1770 (depends where you consider authoritative starting point) years.

So, on to this . . .

This is the actual, documented way the Passover occurred according to the Bible, the Talmud, and numerous other Hebrew sources:

The date, as I assume you already know, divides at sunset. Sunset is the beginning of a new calendar date. The Passover is from the 15th to the 21st, seven days. On the day of the 13th of Nisan, as the sun gets close to setting, at the time considered a "twilight" period of the 13th, the first search for leaven is made. When the sun fully sets, it becomes the 14th, calendrically. In the morning on the day of the 14th, just before the sun rises, considered a "twilight" period of the 14th, the second search for leaven is made. Around 11:00 in the morning, a final search for leaven is made. Then at noon, all leaven is burned and destroyed. It is no longer lawful to possess it until after noon on the 21st.

Following the burning of all leaven at noon, the lambs are sacrificed at about 3:00 in the afternoon. This is considered the evening, which is defined in rabbinic literature as any time after noon, as the sun begins to move towards the western horizon. This day, the 14th of Nisan, is referred to as the Eve of the Passover. It is never, ever, in any work I've ever read, referred to as the Preparation of the Passover. The colloquial nomenclature is the Eve of the Passover. And this is appropriate, since the Passover is the 15th. In the Exodus story, they killed the lambs on the 14th and put the blood on the door posts and lintels. They then departed out of Egypt on the 15th.

On the 15th of Nisan, they celebrated with the Hagigah, also referred to as the Passover of the 15th. It was an obligatory festive offering.

Deuteronomy 16:2 — Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.

As the Talmud notes, and which is correct, the Passover of the 14th can't come from the herd (the cattle). It has to be from the flock (lambs and kids of the goats). This is a separate sacrifice, and the Jews discharged this duty on the 15th.



See also this excerpt by Dr. Alfred Edersheim:

"Few expressions have given rise to more earnest controversy than this. On two things at least we can speak with certainty. Entrance into a heathen house did Levitically render impure for that day—that is, till the evening. The fact of such defilement is clearly attested both in the New Testament (Acts 10:28) and in the Mishnah, though its reasons might be various (Ohol. 18.7; Tohar. 7.3). A person who had so become Levitically unclean was technically called Tebhul Yom (‘bathed of the day’). The other point is, that, to have so become ‘impure’ for the day, would not have disqualified for eating the Paschal Lamb, since the meal was partaken of after the evening, and when a new day had begun. In fact, it is distinctly laid down (Pes. 92a) that the ‘bathed of the day,’ that is, he who had been impure for the day and had bathed in the evening, did partake of the Paschal Supper, and an instance is related, when some soldiers who had guarded the gates of Jerusalem ‘immersed,’ and ate the Paschal Lamb. It follows that those Sanhedrists could not have abstained from entering the Palace of Pilate because by so doing they would have been disqualified for the Paschal Supper.

The point is of importance, because many writers have interpreted the expression ‘the Passover’ as referring to the Paschal Supper, and have argued that, according to the Fourth Gospel, our Lord did not on the previous evening partake of the Paschal Lamb, or else that in this respect the account of the Fourth Gospel does not accord with that of the Synoptists. But as, for the reason just stated, it is impossible to refer the expression ‘Passover’ to the Paschal Supper, we have only to inquire whether the term is not also applied to other offerings. And here both the Old Testament (Deut. 16:1-3; 2 Chron. 35:1, 2, 6, 18) and Jewish writings show, that the term Pesach, or ‘Passover,’ was applied not only to the Paschal Lamb, but to all the Passover sacrifices, especially to what was called the Chagigah, or festive offering (from Chag, or Chagag, to bring the festive sacrifice usual at each of the three Great Feasts).’ According to the express rule (Chag. 1.3) the Chagigah was brought on the first festive Paschal Day. It was offered immediately after the morning-service, and eaten on that day—probably some time before the evening, when, as we shall by-and-by see, another ceremony claimed public attention. We can therefore quite understand that, not on the eve of the Passover, but on the first Paschal day, the Sanhedrists would avoid incurring a defilement which, lasting till the evening, would not only have involved them in the inconvenience of Levitical defilement on the first festive day, but have actually prevented their offering on that day the Passover, festive sacrifice, or Chagigah. For, we have these two express rules: that a person could not in Levitical defilement offer the Chagigah: and that the Chagigah could not be offered for a person by some one else who took his place (Jer. Chag. 76a, lines 16 to 14 from bottom). These considerations and canons seem decisive as regards the views above expressed. There would have been no reason to fear ‘defilement’ on the morning of the Paschal Sacrifice; but entrance into the Praetorium on the morning of the first Passover-day would have rendered it impossible for them to offer the Chagigah, which is also designated by the term Pesach." (Alfred Edersheim, 5.14, in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 865-66).



There are a number of points I would make.

First, I have always argued that the gospels are in agreement. From my perspective, if one views the Bible from a faith point of view, declaring it the infallible word of God, then to admit to so blatant a contradiction amongst the authoritative eye-witness accounts is to discredit them entirely. Alternately, if one views it from a secular or logical point of view, common sense would still rule out the likelihood that the four gospel narratives are telling a different story.

To put it into its logical perspective, you have to realize that suggesting that the gospels disagree on a point of this magnitude—that there is a contradiction concerning the chronology of the Passion—is the same as saying that these men didn’t remember the major facts of their own personal tragedy and conviction clearly. The apostles were all there when Jesus was arrested, and they were all well aware of when he was crucified, and it was a significantly personal and emotional tragedy for all of them.

If your mother, whom you have loved all your life, died on Christmas Eve, you would never forget that it was Christmas Eve. Even at the age of eighty, you would still remember that she died on Christmas Eve. If she instead died on Christmas day, you would likewise remember for the rest of your life that she died on Christmas day. The idea that one of the apostles got their facts mixed up concerning the Passover or the day after the Passover is about as ridiculous as saying that you remember that your mother died on Christmas day, but your brother, because it’s been thirty years, mistakenly remembers that she died on Christmas Eve. It’s absurd. If your mother died on Thursday, June 18th, perhaps you could forget the exact day or date over time since the day and date has no other significance, but when someone important to you dies on a landmark day, that’s not something you forget.

Just to illustrate the point, I can tell you that my father-in-law passed away on April 14th. I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head how many years ago it happened. I couldn’t tell you how old he was. But I know the date because it was my wife’s birthday, which was also the same date Lincoln was shot. Twenty years from now, I’ll still be able to tell you the date, because he passed away on what is, to me, a landmark date.

Jesus was, to these men, as close as any parent, sibling, or spouse. They loved him to the point of death. To suggest that one of them would make a mistake between the two dates is irrational and unrealistic. We’re supposed to believe that people in key positions, who were there at the end, can’t remember whether it was on the Passover or the day after? We’re supposed to believe that they can’t remember whether they ate the Passover with Jesus at the Last Supper or just an ordinary meal? We’re supposed to believe that they can’t remember these things even though they “remembered” and commemorated the Last Supper every single year, passing down the tradition that we today call Easter to all new converts? As we say here in the south, “that dog don’t hunt.” It defies all logic and common sense.

Ultimately, there are only four ways of looking at this issue. We can say that John is right, and the Synoptics are wrong. We can say that the Synoptics are right, and John is wrong. We can say that John is right, and that the Last Supper in the Synoptics harmonizes with a Nisan 14th crucifixion in some way we’re not seeing. Or, we can say that the Synoptics are right, and the crucifixion in John harmonizes with them in a similarly unrecognized way.

If we conclude that either John or the Synoptics is “right” while the other is “wrong,” then we are admitting to a contradiction, championing an absurd and illogical conclusion, and undermining our faith. The entire endeavor would be for naught. If the eye-witnesses can’t be counted on for accuracy on a point that should be logically uniform across the four accounts, then their accounts aren’t worth the vellum or papyrus they’re written on. It is my personal conviction that there is no contradiction. There is no, “this one is right,” while, “that one is wrong.” My own faith notwithstanding, I find the notion of a contradiction on this specific subject matter to be highly illogical, as already mentioned.

Therefore, logically eliminating two of our options, that leaves us with the options of harmonization. Either John is accurate and the Synoptics, despite the unambiguous nature of their narratives, somehow harmonize with John, or the Synoptics are right and John, equally unambiguous, somehow harmonizes with the Synoptics. The question is, which harmonizes with which?

Relative to this perspective, the Synoptics point blank state that the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, and the day when the passover was killed. The Synoptics point blank state that Peter and John went and made ready the passover. Jesus stated point blank that he would keep the passover at the goodman's house. They ate the passover. It's not debatable. Three gospels state it beyond all rational argument. There is no way to harmonize this with the 13th of the month. Period. The version you've given is not correct. It defies the plain statements of three gospels.

So, that leaves the question of whether John can be harmonized with the Synoptics. And the plain fact of the matter is that it can be.
 
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AFrazier

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It is a fact that it could not have happened on the 15th but you do not know why...and there are many reasons but there is a very important reason.
Yes, the important reason of your theology. Your theology doesn't trump stated fact. Try again.
 
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AFrazier

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There are sacrifices and Chagigot EVERYDAY throughout. You just happen to pick the 15th because you have to force it to fit your theory LOL.
That's not actually accurate. I don't need it to "fit" any theory. The difference between you and me is that I look at the evidence and form a theory based on the evidence. You take a notion in your head, and warp and ignore evidence when it doesn't agree with you. Since the crucifixion actually happened on the 15th, it was obviously the Hagigah of the 15th. If the crucifixion was on the 16th, I would conclude differently. But you . . . you decided that Christ had to have been crucified on the 14th, therefore, you just throw three gospels in the trash because they don't agree with your theological philosophy.
 
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AFrazier

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It is a fact that it could not have happened on the 15th but you do not know why...and there are many reasons but there is a very important reason.
Feel free to expound upon this with factual evidence. I already know your theological point of view, which means nothing to me. But if there are factual reasons it was impossible, by all means, explain.

We have records of the Sanhedrin trying people on the eve of the passover. So, it's not that.

They didn't execute him. They brought him to Pontius Pilate to have it done, in accordance with the law that a condemned prisoner had to be executed within a day, lest the judges become sympathetic and forget the reason he was condemned. They didn't violate the Sabbath of the 15th. They had a gentile do it. So, it's not that either.

Again, feel free to elaborate.
 
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notRusskiyMir

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First of all, orthodox means nothing to me. I've studied all of that, and reformed theology, and systematic theology. Keep in mind that these are the same people who determined that the eucharist actually turned into meat in your mouth, and executed people who believed otherwise. Other orthodoxies, like the Roman Catholics, sold sin for profit (a.k.a. indulgences). Orthodoxy embraces Mariology. Other orthodoxy embraces supralapsarianism. Honestly, it means nothing to me. It was men in positions of authority who came to conclusions and forced them on everyone else on pain of death in many cases. It doesn't make them right.

You did give a sequence. It is straightforward. It is not consistent with Jewish practice.

I wasn't being huffy. I was being direct. It honestly gets old feeling like I'm talking to the wind. What I was saying to you is that if I take the time to respond to you and answer to your comments or rebuttals, pay me the courtesy of considering what I have to say. As was once said, don't listen to answer. Listen to listen. Too many people only listen to see what they need to counter, what argument they need to overcome, without ever considering whether it needs to be countered or argued in the first place.

Moving forward, you don't have to keep posting your sequence. I read it. It wasn't ignored. It was disagreed with.
Keep in mind that these are the same people who determined that the eucharist actually turned into meat in your mouth, and executed people who believed otherwise
No. The Orthodox never have espoused Transubstantiation, which you are saying here. As that is the only objection here, you should be more open to Orthodoxy. Lower your protestant guard and be open to learning anew. Oh, and hit the books on Orthodoxy.
 
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notRusskiyMir

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So, on to this . . .

This is the actual, documented way the Passover occurred according to the Bible, the Talmud, and numerous other Hebrew sources:

The date, as I assume you already know, divides at sunset. Sunset is the beginning of a new calendar date. The Passover is from the 15th to the 21st, seven days. On the day of the 13th of Nisan, as the sun gets close to setting, at the time considered a "twilight" period of the 13th, the first search for leaven is made. When the sun fully sets, it becomes the 14th, calendrically. In the morning on the day of the 14th, just before the sun rises, considered a "twilight" period of the 14th, the second search for leaven is made. Around 11:00 in the morning, a final search for leaven is made. Then at noon, all leaven is burned and destroyed. It is no longer lawful to possess it until after noon on the 21st.

Following the burning of all leaven at noon, the lambs are sacrificed at about 3:00 in the afternoon. This is considered the evening, which is defined in rabbinic literature as any time after noon, as the sun begins to move towards the western horizon. This day, the 14th of Nisan, is referred to as the Eve of the Passover. It is never, ever, in any work I've ever read, referred to as the Preparation of the Passover. The colloquial nomenclature is the Eve of the Passover. And this is appropriate, since the Passover is the 15th. In the Exodus story, they killed the lambs on the 14th and put the blood on the door posts and lintels. They then departed out of Egypt on the 15th.

On the 15th of Nisan, they celebrated with the Hagigah, also referred to as the Passover of the 15th. It was an obligatory festive offering.

Deuteronomy 16:2 — Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.

As the Talmud notes, and which is correct, the Passover of the 14th can't come from the herd (the cattle). It has to be from the flock (lambs and kids of the goats). This is a separate sacrifice, and the Jews discharged this duty on the 15th.



See also this excerpt by Dr. Alfred Edersheim:

"Few expressions have given rise to more earnest controversy than this. On two things at least we can speak with certainty. Entrance into a heathen house did Levitically render impure for that day—that is, till the evening. The fact of such defilement is clearly attested both in the New Testament (Acts 10:28) and in the Mishnah, though its reasons might be various (Ohol. 18.7; Tohar. 7.3). A person who had so become Levitically unclean was technically called Tebhul Yom (‘bathed of the day’). The other point is, that, to have so become ‘impure’ for the day, would not have disqualified for eating the Paschal Lamb, since the meal was partaken of after the evening, and when a new day had begun. In fact, it is distinctly laid down (Pes. 92a) that the ‘bathed of the day,’ that is, he who had been impure for the day and had bathed in the evening, did partake of the Paschal Supper, and an instance is related, when some soldiers who had guarded the gates of Jerusalem ‘immersed,’ and ate the Paschal Lamb. It follows that those Sanhedrists could not have abstained from entering the Palace of Pilate because by so doing they would have been disqualified for the Paschal Supper.

The point is of importance, because many writers have interpreted the expression ‘the Passover’ as referring to the Paschal Supper, and have argued that, according to the Fourth Gospel, our Lord did not on the previous evening partake of the Paschal Lamb, or else that in this respect the account of the Fourth Gospel does not accord with that of the Synoptists. But as, for the reason just stated, it is impossible to refer the expression ‘Passover’ to the Paschal Supper, we have only to inquire whether the term is not also applied to other offerings. And here both the Old Testament (Deut. 16:1-3; 2 Chron. 35:1, 2, 6, 18) and Jewish writings show, that the term Pesach, or ‘Passover,’ was applied not only to the Paschal Lamb, but to all the Passover sacrifices, especially to what was called the Chagigah, or festive offering (from Chag, or Chagag, to bring the festive sacrifice usual at each of the three Great Feasts).’ According to the express rule (Chag. 1.3) the Chagigah was brought on the first festive Paschal Day. It was offered immediately after the morning-service, and eaten on that day—probably some time before the evening, when, as we shall by-and-by see, another ceremony claimed public attention. We can therefore quite understand that, not on the eve of the Passover, but on the first Paschal day, the Sanhedrists would avoid incurring a defilement which, lasting till the evening, would not only have involved them in the inconvenience of Levitical defilement on the first festive day, but have actually prevented their offering on that day the Passover, festive sacrifice, or Chagigah. For, we have these two express rules: that a person could not in Levitical defilement offer the Chagigah: and that the Chagigah could not be offered for a person by some one else who took his place (Jer. Chag. 76a, lines 16 to 14 from bottom). These considerations and canons seem decisive as regards the views above expressed. There would have been no reason to fear ‘defilement’ on the morning of the Paschal Sacrifice; but entrance into the Praetorium on the morning of the first Passover-day would have rendered it impossible for them to offer the Chagigah, which is also designated by the term Pesach." (Alfred Edersheim, 5.14, in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 865-66).



There are a number of points I would make.

First, I have always argued that the gospels are in agreement. From my perspective, if one views the Bible from a faith point of view, declaring it the infallible word of God, then to admit to so blatant a contradiction amongst the authoritative eye-witness accounts is to discredit them entirely. Alternately, if one views it from a secular or logical point of view, common sense would still rule out the likelihood that the four gospel narratives are telling a different story.

To put it into its logical perspective, you have to realize that suggesting that the gospels disagree on a point of this magnitude—that there is a contradiction concerning the chronology of the Passion—is the same as saying that these men didn’t remember the major facts of their own personal tragedy and conviction clearly. The apostles were all there when Jesus was arrested, and they were all well aware of when he was crucified, and it was a significantly personal and emotional tragedy for all of them.

If your mother, whom you have loved all your life, died on Christmas Eve, you would never forget that it was Christmas Eve. Even at the age of eighty, you would still remember that she died on Christmas Eve. If she instead died on Christmas day, you would likewise remember for the rest of your life that she died on Christmas day. The idea that one of the apostles got their facts mixed up concerning the Passover or the day after the Passover is about as ridiculous as saying that you remember that your mother died on Christmas day, but your brother, because it’s been thirty years, mistakenly remembers that she died on Christmas Eve. It’s absurd. If your mother died on Thursday, June 18th, perhaps you could forget the exact day or date over time since the day and date has no other significance, but when someone important to you dies on a landmark day, that’s not something you forget.

Just to illustrate the point, I can tell you that my father-in-law passed away on April 14th. I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head how many years ago it happened. I couldn’t tell you how old he was. But I know the date because it was my wife’s birthday, which was also the same date Lincoln was shot. Twenty years from now, I’ll still be able to tell you the date, because he passed away on what is, to me, a landmark date.

Jesus was, to these men, as close as any parent, sibling, or spouse. They loved him to the point of death. To suggest that one of them would make a mistake between the two dates is irrational and unrealistic. We’re supposed to believe that people in key positions, who were there at the end, can’t remember whether it was on the Passover or the day after? We’re supposed to believe that they can’t remember whether they ate the Passover with Jesus at the Last Supper or just an ordinary meal? We’re supposed to believe that they can’t remember these things even though they “remembered” and commemorated the Last Supper every single year, passing down the tradition that we today call Easter to all new converts? As we say here in the south, “that dog don’t hunt.” It defies all logic and common sense.

Ultimately, there are only four ways of looking at this issue. We can say that John is right, and the Synoptics are wrong. We can say that the Synoptics are right, and John is wrong. We can say that John is right, and that the Last Supper in the Synoptics harmonizes with a Nisan 14th crucifixion in some way we’re not seeing. Or, we can say that the Synoptics are right, and the crucifixion in John harmonizes with them in a similarly unrecognized way.

If we conclude that either John or the Synoptics is “right” while the other is “wrong,” then we are admitting to a contradiction, championing an absurd and illogical conclusion, and undermining our faith. The entire endeavor would be for naught. If the eye-witnesses can’t be counted on for accuracy on a point that should be logically uniform across the four accounts, then their accounts aren’t worth the vellum or papyrus they’re written on. It is my personal conviction that there is no contradiction. There is no, “this one is right,” while, “that one is wrong.” My own faith notwithstanding, I find the notion of a contradiction on this specific subject matter to be highly illogical, as already mentioned.

Therefore, logically eliminating two of our options, that leaves us with the options of harmonization. Either John is accurate and the Synoptics, despite the unambiguous nature of their narratives, somehow harmonize with John, or the Synoptics are right and John, equally unambiguous, somehow harmonizes with the Synoptics. The question is, which harmonizes with which?

Relative to this perspective, the Synoptics point blank state that the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, and the day when the passover was killed. The Synoptics point blank state that Peter and John went and made ready the passover. Jesus stated point blank that he would keep the passover at the goodman's house. They ate the passover. It's not debatable. Three gospels state it beyond all rational argument. There is no way to harmonize this with the 13th of the month. Period. The version you've given is not correct. It defies the plain statements of three gospels.

So, that leaves the question of whether John can be harmonized with the Synoptics. And the plain fact of the matter is that it can be.
For all of that, it is John vs the Synoptics. And they must be harmonized. The Orthodox view is John harmonizes the Synoptics.

The chabad reference states that "Passover" is linked to Nissan 14, reasoning that if the Passover sacrifice (lamb) is killed that afternoon, then that is Passover. That is what I think happens in the Synoptics, and it clears at least 2 of your certainties.
the Synoptics point blank state that the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, and the day when the passover was killed.
Please provide the citations for the above. One or more for each.
The Synoptics point blank state that Peter and John went and made ready the passover. Jesus stated point blank that he would keep the passover at the goodman's house.
Please provide the citation for the above. Both of them. These are the ones that I think are resolved if they are speaking of Nissan 14 as the Passover. But lets examine them.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...hy-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The Orthodox believe in a 3 day Resurrection. Dying on a Friday doesn't satisfy that. Holy Thursday morning service is about the Last Supper. (Holy Wednesday evening is a healing service.) Holy Thursday evening service is about the crucifixion. Holy Friday afternoon is about Jesus' burial, Christ is no longer on the Cross. Holy Friday evening service is the Lamentations at Christ's tomb. So, I am right.
What I told you IS the correct Orthodox chronology. Orthodoxy teaches his death and burial on Good Friday, Holy Saturday in the tomb with a Sunday (Saturday night after sundown at midnight, Pascha midnight services) resurrection. So no, you are wrong. Friday day1, Sabbath day 2 and Sunday day 3. If you don't believe me ask your Priest or maybe @ArmyMatt can chime in.

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    Holy Thursday


    On Thursday of Holy Week four events are commemorated: the washing of the disciples' feet, the institution of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper, the agony in the garden of Gethsemane, and the betrayal of Christ by Judas.


    Img

    Holy Friday


    On Great and Holy Friday the Orthodox Church commemorates the death of Christ on the Cross. This is the culmination of the observance of His Passion by which our Lord suffered and died for our sins. This commemoration begins on Thursday evening with the Matins of Holy Friday and concludes with a Vespers on Friday afternoon that observes the unnailing of Christ from the Cross and the placement of His body in the tomb.
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      Holy Saturday


      On Great and Holy Saturday the Orthodox Church commemorates the burial of Christ and His descent into Hades. It is the day between the Crucifixion of our Lord and His glorious Resurrection. The Matins of Holy Saturday is conducted on Friday evening, and while many elements of the service represent mourning at the death and burial of Christ, the service itself is one of watchful expectation.






 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yes, the important reason of your theology. Your theology doesn't trump stated fact. Try again.
Fact is 1+1 =2 which is what I presented while your "facts" are 1 + 1 = 11
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Feel free to expound upon this with factual evidence. I already know your theological point of view, which means nothing to me. But if there are factual reasons it was impossible, by all means, explain.

We have records of the Sanhedrin trying people on the eve of the passover. So, it's not that.

They didn't execute him. They brought him to Pontius Pilate to have it done, in accordance with the law that a condemned prisoner had to be executed within a day, lest the judges become sympathetic and forget the reason he was condemned. They didn't violate the Sabbath of the 15th. They had a gentile do it. So, it's not that either.

Again, feel free to elaborate.
Well yeah, the 14th was a Friday (while you say it was the 15th). Shabbat was on Saturday (I say it was the 15th while you say it was the 16th). However it was illegal to hold those proceedings at night. But that is not why the 15th was impossible.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Since the crucifixion actually happened on the 15th, it was obviously the Hagigah of the 15th. If the crucifixion was on the 16th, I would conclude differently. But you . . . you decided that Christ had to have been crucified on the 14th, therefore, you just throw three gospels in the trash because they don't agree with your theological philosophy.
Actually no I don't. the 15th is impossible and you still do not know why lol. You better get researching! I say He was crucified on the 14th because He was, for a multitude of reasons...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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So, on to this . . .

This is the actual, documented way the Passover occurred according to the Bible, the Talmud, and numerous other Hebrew sources:

On the 15th of Nisan, they celebrated with the Hagigah, also referred to as the Passover of the 15th. It was an obligatory festive offering.

Deuteronomy 16:2 — Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.

As the Talmud notes, and which is correct, the Passover of the 14th can't come from the herd (the cattle). It has to be from the flock (lambs and kids of the goats). This is a separate sacrifice, and the Jews discharged this duty on the 15th.



See also this excerpt by Dr. Alfred Edersheim:

"Few expressions have given rise to more earnest controversy than this. On two things at least we can speak with certainty. Entrance into a heathen house did Levitically render impure for that day—that is, till the evening. The fact of such defilement is clearly attested both in the New Testament (Acts 10:28) and in the Mishnah, though its reasons might be various (Ohol. 18.7; Tohar. 7.3). A person who had so become Levitically unclean was technically called Tebhul Yom (‘bathed of the day’). The other point is, that, to have so become ‘impure’ for the day, would not have disqualified for eating the Paschal Lamb, since the meal was partaken of after the evening, and when a new day had begun. In fact, it is distinctly laid down (Pes. 92a) that the ‘bathed of the day,’ that is, he who had been impure for the day and had bathed in the evening, did partake of the Paschal Supper, and an instance is related, when some soldiers who had guarded the gates of Jerusalem ‘immersed,’ and ate the Paschal Lamb. It follows that those Sanhedrists could not have abstained from entering the Palace of Pilate because by so doing they would have been disqualified for the Paschal Supper.

The point is of importance, because many writers have interpreted the expression ‘the Passover’ as referring to the Paschal Supper, and have argued that, according to the Fourth Gospel, our Lord did not on the previous evening partake of the Paschal Lamb, or else that in this respect the account of the Fourth Gospel does not accord with that of the Synoptists. But as, for the reason just stated, it is impossible to refer the expression ‘Passover’ to the Paschal Supper, we have only to inquire whether the term is not also applied to other offerings. And here both the Old Testament (Deut. 16:1-3; 2 Chron. 35:1, 2, 6, 18) and Jewish writings show, that the term Pesach, or ‘Passover,’ was applied not only to the Paschal Lamb, but to all the Passover sacrifices, especially to what was called the Chagigah, or festive offering (from Chag, or Chagag, to bring the festive sacrifice usual at each of the three Great Feasts).’ According to the express rule (Chag. 1.3) the Chagigah was brought on the first festive Paschal Day. It was offered immediately after the morning-service, and eaten on that day—probably some time before the evening, when, as we shall by-and-by see, another ceremony claimed public attention. We can therefore quite understand that, not on the eve of the Passover, but on the first Paschal day, the Sanhedrists would avoid incurring a defilement which, lasting till the evening, would not only have involved them in the inconvenience of Levitical defilement on the first festive day, but have actually prevented their offering on that day the Passover, festive sacrifice, or Chagigah. For, we have these two express rules: that a person could not in Levitical defilement offer the Chagigah: and that the Chagigah could not be offered for a person by some one else who took his place (Jer. Chag. 76a, lines 16 to 14 from bottom). These considerations and canons seem decisive as regards the views above expressed. There would have been no reason to fear ‘defilement’ on the morning of the Paschal Sacrifice; but entrance into the Praetorium on the morning of the first Passover-day would have rendered it impossible for them to offer the Chagigah, which is also designated by the term Pesach." (Alfred Edersheim, 5.14, in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 865-66).
There were Chagigot every day of the festival and it's bones CAN be broken. If as you think, Yeshua was the Chagigah, none of the prophesies would matter and would not have been brought forth in the Gospel narratives. You have no case.
 
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AFrazier

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No. The Orthodox never have espoused Transubstantiation, which you are saying here. As that is the only objection here, you should be more open to Orthodoxy. Lower your protestant guard and be open to learning anew. Oh, and hit the books on Orthodoxy.
You said orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox. The word orthodox means authorized or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice. Orthodoxy in general refers equally to the traditions and practices of any sect or denomination. Historical, or ancient orthodoxy, can refer to any of the established branches of Christianity going back to the first millennium. So, I'm not speaking incorrectly. And this . . . "Oh, and hit the books on Orthodoxy," is the kind of thing I was talking about with the condescension. Stop talking to me like I'm stupid or uneducated. I'm neither.
 
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AFrazier

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The Synoptics point blank state that the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, and the day when the passover was killed.
Please provide the citations for the above. One or more for each.

Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

The Synoptics point blank state that Peter and John went and made ready the passover. Jesus stated point blank that he would keep the passover at the goodman's house.
Please provide the citations for the above. One or more for each.

Luke 22:8-13 — And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Mark 14:13-16 — And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Matthew 26:17-19 — Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

For all of that, it is John vs the Synoptics. And they must be harmonized. The Orthodox view is John harmonizes the Synoptics.

The chabad reference states that "Passover" is linked to Nissan 14, reasoning that if the Passover sacrifice (lamb) is killed that afternoon, then that is Passover. That is what I think happens in the Synoptics, and it clears at least 2 of your certainties.

What you're saying here is not clear. I can only assume you are referencing something to do with what you've already posted concerning the last supper being eaten at the beginning of the 14th when the calendar date changed at sunset on the 13th. But please clarify.

It should also be said that on the strength of "they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover" (John 18:28), it is concluded by many, including yourself, that it was the passover in John's gospel. But for some unfathomable reason, the strength of all the passages quoted above seem to have no relevance.

If you actually read what I wrote in the previous post, Edersheim gives a great breakdown of that passage.
 
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notRusskiyMir

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What I told you IS the correct Orthodox chronology. Orthodoxy teaches his death and burial on Good Friday, Holy Saturday in the tomb with a Sunday (Saturday night after sundown at midnight, Pascha midnight services) resurrection. So no, you are wrong. Friday day1, Sabbath day 2 and Sunday day 3. If you don't believe me ask your Priest or maybe @ArmyMatt can chime in.

  • Img

    Holy Thursday


    On Thursday of Holy Week four events are commemorated: the washing of the disciples' feet, the institution of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper, the agony in the garden of Gethsemane, and the betrayal of Christ by Judas.


    Img

    Holy Friday


    On Great and Holy Friday the Orthodox Church commemorates the death of Christ on the Cross. This is the culmination of the observance of His Passion by which our Lord suffered and died for our sins. This commemoration begins on Thursday evening with the Matins of Holy Friday and concludes with a Vespers on Friday afternoon that observes the unnailing of Christ from the Cross and the placement of His body in the tomb.
    • Img

      Holy Saturday


      On Great and Holy Saturday the Orthodox Church commemorates the burial of Christ and His descent into Hades. It is the day between the Crucifixion of our Lord and His glorious Resurrection. The Matins of Holy Saturday is conducted on Friday evening, and while many elements of the service represent mourning at the death and burial of Christ, the service itself is one of watchful expectation.



You are misinterpreting what is written, and the writing is not especially precise if it is from the website. No, it is how I described. I have the Holy Week service book. It tracks what this website site describes. Scroll down to Holy Week. Start with Thursday morning, which is where I started.

Holy Thursday morning service is about the Last Supper. (Holy Wednesday evening is a healing service.) Holy Thursday evening service is about the crucifixion. The last Gospel is Matthew 27:62-66. Note the reference to the day after the Day of Preparation - Nissan 14. This is when Temple authorities wanted the guard placed. John does reconcile the Synoptics.

Holy Friday afternoon is about Jesus' burial, Christ is no longer on the Cross. Holy Friday evening service is the Lamentations at Christ's tomb. The Orthodox believe in a 3 day Resurrection. Dying on a Friday doesn't satisfy that.


Added:
I want to keep this together so casual readers see the full sequence and tie-in.

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzahs -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

 
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AFrazier

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Fact is 1+1 =2 which is what I presented while your "facts" are 1 + 1 = 11
This is just more snide flaming. Present intelligent rebuttals or be quiet.
 
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Well yeah, the 14th was a Friday (while you say it was the 15th). Shabbat was on Saturday (I say it was the 15th while you say it was the 16th). However it was illegal to hold those proceedings at night. But that is not why the 15th was impossible.
It wasn't illegal. But nevertheless, you neglected to offer evidence of what you're saying. If it was impossible, apart from your theological interpretations, make the arguments known.
 
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AFrazier

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Actually no I don't. the 15th is impossible and you still do not know why lol. You better get researching! I say He was crucified on the 14th because He was, for a multitude of reasons...
"lol"ing at me is goading. You still haven't presented an argument. Calling me wrong and laughing is not an intelligent rebuttal. Say something intelligent or be quiet.
 
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AFrazier

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There were Chagigot every day of the festival and it's bones CAN be broken. If as you think, Yeshua was the Chagigah, none of the prophesies would matter and would not have been brought forth in the Gospel narratives. You have no case.
I didn't say Jesus was the Hagigah. YOU can't seem to separate your theology and philosophy from the historical facts. He didn't have to die on the 14th to be our passover. And dying on the 15th doesn't make him something else. You're the one suggesting that, not me.
 
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