Sinning Willfully, a study in Hebrews

[Grip Docility]

Going in circles. Yes, He died while we are still sinners,

This is something. I will rejoice in it.

but we if in Christ

This is something. I will rejoice in it.

we do not stay in that same state. Rom 6, Rom 8

This is confusing.

Take care.

Take care. Thank you for giving me the respect of going in circles with me.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sibling in Him.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Can you elaborate if this is something we should do?

Tell me what you think repentance means and I'll tell you if it is something we must do.

You mentioned "a person's slate is wiped clean at the front-end" So what happens if they slip and fall?

I was saying that you see salvation as starting with "a person's state being wiped clean at the front-end". I don't see it like that. I see salvation as starting with all sins and sinfulness forgiven plus the creation of a new man (or inward man) that is one with God and can't be dragged away from Him by the flesh or the devil. That inward man never stumbles or falls but is in the same body with sinful flesh which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jer 17:9) and can't be trained to be good.

Agreed, but then you said this

Which Paul relates those who are hostile to God's law are not walking in the spirit, but walking in flesh (sin)

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Are you not aware that if Christ lives in our hearts, we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit (Ro 8:9)? That's the next verse. And the very next verse after that says the body (flesh) is dead because of it's sin, but the spirit is alive because of its righteousness (Ro 8:10). You don't see this verse as applicable to us?

God's law is not the issue - it perfect Psa 19:7 righteous Psa 119:172 Rom 7:12 and not burdensome 1 John 5:3 this issue is our desire for sin (breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12) over our love for Jesus John 14:15 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3 if we abide in His love, we will keep His commandment John 15:10 because we guard what He placed in our hearts, His law Heb 8:10 and His Spirit enables us to keep, If we slip, we have an Advocate with Jesus when we confess, but a Christian should not be living in perpetual sin, all the law does is show us our sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and shows our need for a Savior and so we are not depending on our righteous way of living, but on God's Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142. Its not the law that breaks the wheels, but our sinful nature and desire to sin, or live in the flesh.

As in past discussions, you do not recognize the curse of the law that everyone who breaks it is under (Deut 27:26, Ga 3:10) or the fact that Christ has redeemed us from the curse (having become a curse for us) so that through faith in Him we instead receive the blessing of Abraham and the Holy Spirit of God (Ga 3:13-14).

How do you justify turning from Christ and ignoring the clear and easily known fact that God declares no one righteous because of their obedience to the law (Ga 3:11), that picking up one law to obey it obligates you to obey every law (Ga 5:3), that if you break one law then you break them all (Ja 2:10), that the purpose of the law is to confine all people under sin (Ga 3:22), that if righteousness comes through obedience to the law then Christ died in vain (Ga 2:21), or that there exists no law that gives life to those who obey it (Ga 3:21).

 

[Grip Docility]

Your words. Take a bit of scripture adding our words to it, is exactly what we are warned not to do Pro 30:5-6

Today means something different than "TODAY"?

I will stick with what God says.
There is no Jewish Sabbath, God calls His Sabbath, My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa 58:13 Jesus said was made for man Mark 2:27, not Jew.

Which day is that "Sabbath" on? Is it "Today"?

Take care,

Take care, Sibling in Jesus

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

An interesting study is to Cross Reference Galatians 2:21

Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Romans 1:16 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

The entirety of the Law and Prophets HUNG by this very "LAW" that GIVES LIFE. (Royalty)​

Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

I am finding a great deal of agreement with you on this thread. Galatians 2:21 and 3:21 bookend a deep truth. God loved us enough to sacrifice His Son for our sins because He knew there was no other way to save our souls from etrernal damnation. And we see in Jesus' prayer in the garden that the price He had to pay was greater than He wanted to bear if there was another way forward within the will of God. But there wasn't. A while back I wrote these things...

If God could have saved our souls by writing a law, or by making a covenant, or by killing some animals, or by any other means than the means He chose, then He would not have asked His Son to pay for our sins. But seeing perfectly that there was no other way, and loving us enough to do it, God “did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all” (Rom. 8:32).​

​

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus “offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death” (Heb. 5:7). And He “was heard because of His godly fear” (Heb. 5:7). But in spite of Jesus’ prayers and supplications, and in spite of the pain and suffering it would cause Him to sacrifice His Son, God did not change His mind.​

​

When God did not change His mind, Jesus set aside the fact that what God wanted Him to do would come at a high price to Him personally. And as a result, “He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross” (Phil. 2:8). He let those people arrest Him. He let them nail Him to the cross. And He let God lay on Him the iniquity of us all.​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Tell me what you think repentance means and I'll tell you if it is something we must do.

I asked first.

I was saying that you see salvation as starting with "a person's slate being wiped clean at the front-end".

I have never said this, can you please quote me ever saying that.

I don't see it like that. I see salvation as starting with all sins and sinfulness forgiven plus the creation of a new man (or inward man) that is one with God and can't be dragged away from Him by the flesh or the devil. That inward man never stumbles or falls but is in the same body

Moses was a good man, man of faith, but he stumbled and fell, why he was not able to cross over to the promise land, but what does a faithful and righteous man do compared to one that isn't?

with sinful flesh which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jer 17:9)

It doesn't say that...it says the heart is deceitful- when we go by what we feel in our heart instead of God's Word to be the path to guide us Psa 119:105

Jer 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And [a]desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

Are you not aware that if Christ lives in our hearts, we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit (Ro 8:9)? That's the next verse. And the very next verse after that says the body (flesh) is dead because of it's sin, but the spirit is alive because of its righteousness (Ro 8:10). You don't see this verse as applicable to us?

Yes I am aware, but those verses do not delete the fact Paul shows us what a lost person does- they do not subject themselves to God's law Rom 8:7-8 in contrast to those who do who are living in the spirit. This is the same as what Jesus taught Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

As in past discussions, you do not recognize the curse of the law that everyone who breaks it is under (Deut 27:26, Ga 3:10) or the fact that Christ has redeemed us from the curse (having become a curse for us) so that through faith in Him we instead receive the blessing of Abraham and the Holy Spirit of God (Ga 3:13-14).

I do understand and recognize the curse of the law- which is death, the penalty of sin- breaking God's law. Rom 6:23 but Jesus gives us another option- to choose life and in doing so, He enables us to obey His commandments and be free of the bondage of sin. The issue is not God's law, the issue is breaking it and disobeying God, living in the flesh over living with Jesus John 14:15-18 The issue is when we go by our own moral compass based on our heart of what we feel is right and wrong, instead of obeying our Savior, who tells us what is His righteousness Psa 119:172 and knows what is best of us and only asks us to obey the commandments because He doesn't want His children to sin because it shows we belong to another 1 John 3:8. Jesus wants us to choose Him and in doing so, we obey what He asks through love and faith.

How do you justify turning from Christ

So that's some serious judgement-thankfully you are not my Judge, nor am I yours. We all have to stand before Jesus one day soon 2 COr 5:10 based on His Judgement and He tells us what He Judges us by clearly, Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 James 2:10-12 Rev 22:14-15

and ignoring the clear and easily known fact that God declares no one righteous because of their obedience to the law (Ga 3:11),

The law being referred to is circumcision, Gal 2:3, 7

Our righteousness does not come from the law, it comes from Christ who tells us to obey His commandments John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Exo 20:6 its faith that makes someone righteous through Christ, when we trust what Christ tells us to do, even if it doesn't make sense to us that's our righteousness- Christ, Obeying God leads to righteousness, sinning leads one down the wrong path Rom 6:16

that picking up one law to obey it obligates you to obey every law (Ga 5:3)

there is no circumcision in the Ten Commandments. Paul contrasted these laws and came to this conclusion

1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

, that if you break one law then you break them all (Ja 2:10),

James is only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments, breaking one, we break them all. Its a standalone unit , placed inside the ark of the Covenant, under Christ mercy seat, written by the Authority of God Exo 32:16 Which is why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these Mat 5:19-30

that the purpose of the law is to confine all people under sin (Ga 3:22)

There are many laws that serves different purposes, the main law in Galatians is about circumcision. There is no circumcision in the Ten Commandments.

, that if righteousness comes through obedience to the law then Christ died in vain (Ga 2:21),

Again, the law being referred to is circumcision. No wonder why we have this warning in scripture about Paul 2 Peter 3:16. Paul is not teaching us to not obey the Ten Commandments and we can now start coveting, worshipping other gods, murder or break the least of these commandments, the opposite of what Jesus taught and lived.

Because what does Jesus teach?

John 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

He teaches us to be obedient to His law. Not so we make ourselves righteous, because we love and have faith in Christ who is righteous and lived righteously and kept all of the commandments and is without sin who lived to be our example to follow in His footsteps. 1 Peter 2:21-22 1 John 2:6

or that there exists no law that gives life to those who obey it (Ga 3:21).

Right. We can't save ourselves- we need a Savior and our Savior tells us to obey the law. John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Not to be saved, but because we have faith to live by His every Word. Our obedience to God's law is not to be saved, it is a consequence of being saved. Rev 14:12 verses the lost Rom 8:7-8

 

[Grip Docility]

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

He died because we have all sinned and without His Great Sacrifice we would all be lost.

If you had stopped here, all would be good.

If He could of just taken away the law, He would never had to die.

This is an interesting point of view. Let's inspect it. God's laws reveal His requirements for righteousness, the rewards for fulfilling them, and the punishment for not fulfilling them. In other words, God's laws frame the target we must hit to be right with God. But people were missing the target before God gave the law. So, it is safe to assume that if Jesus could have just taken away the law, then people would still be missing the mark. People missing the mark does not require Jesus to die, but if He had not died they would all be lost.

But you said, "He would never [have] had to die", which means you are not talking about erasing the law which paints the target. You are talking about Jesus possibly eliminating God's requirements for righteousness and thereby eliminating any distinction between right and wrong or good and evil. Under that scenario, He would not have had to die for peoples' sins (there being no such thing as sin). But then, that would create chaos, right, for God would then cease to be holy and evil would be just as good as God?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If you had stopped here, all would be good.

This is an interesting point of view. Let's inspect it. God's laws reveal His requirements for righteousness, the rewards for fulfilling them, and the punishment for not fulfilling them. In other words, God's laws frame the target we must hit to be right with God. But people were missing the target before God gave the law.

No, its not what the scriptures say:

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Sin is the transgression of the law

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

God has always had a standard of right and wrong. Psa 119:172

Where did Lucifer sin? In heaven 1 John 3:8 so God's law- His standard of righteousness has always existed. We don't have to guess because Moses built the earthy temple according to the pattern of heaven, it was a miniature of God's heavenly temple Heb 8:1-5 where lies the Ten Commandments, inside the ark of the covenant Rev 11:19 under the mercy seat of Christ Exo 25:20, what all man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 Ecc 12:13-14 Lucifer was one of the angels who covered God's law. Eze 28:16. He didn't want to obey it either 1 John 3:8 and why we are all in this big mess.

Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden when they listened to the other spirit over obeying God. Breaking the very first commandment Exo 20:3 and a bunch of other commandments because where there is no law, there is no sin.

It's why Cain knew it was sin to murder Abel, because he was told thou shalt not murder only found in the Ten Commandments Exo 20

No law, no sin.

Sin separates us from God. Isa 59:2 Because man sinned, God gave up His own Son, not so we can continue in sin, but through faith and love, He enables to keep His engrafted Word and law that He writes in our hearts based on His strength Heb 8:10, its when we choose to follow our own righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172, our own Truth instead of God's Psa 119:151 depend on our own sanctification instead of God's Eze 20:12 it becomes dangerous. Rom 8:7-8 Mat 7:21-23

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I asked first.

I have never said this, can you please quote me ever saying that.

Moses was a good man, man of faith, but he stumbled and fell, why he was not able to cross over to the promise land, but what does a faithful and righteous man do compared to one that isn't?

It doesn't say that...it says the heart is deceitful- when we go by what we feel in our heart instead of God's Word to be the path to guide us Psa 119:105

Jer 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And [a]desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

Yes I am aware, but those verses do not delete the fact Paul shows us what a lost person does- they do not subject themselves to God's law Rom 8:7-8 in contrast to those who do who are living in the spirit. This is the same as what Jesus taught Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

I do understand and recognize the curse of the law- which is death, the penalty of sin- breaking God's law. Rom 6:23 but Jesus gives us another option- to choose life and in doing so, He enables us to obey His commandments and be free of the bondage of sin. The issue is not God's law, the issue is breaking it and disobeying God, living in the flesh over living with Jesus John 14:15-18 The issue is when we go by our own moral compass based on our heart of what we feel is right and wrong, instead of obeying our Savior, who tells us what is His righteousness Psa 119:172 and knows what is best of us and only asks us to obey the commandments because He doesn't want His children to sin because it shows we belong to another 1 John 3:8. Jesus wants us to choose Him and in doing so, we obey what He asks through love and faith.

So that's some serious judgement-thankfully you are not my Judge, nor am I yours. We all have to stand before Jesus one day soon 2 COr 5:10 based on His Judgement and He tells us what He Judges us by clearly, Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 James 2:10-12 Rev 22:14-15

The law being referred to is circumcision, Gal 2:3, 7

Our righteousness does not come from the law, it comes from Christ who tells us to obey His commandments John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Exo 20:6 its faith that makes someone righteous through Christ, when we trust what Christ tells us to do, even if it doesn't make sense to us that's our righteousness- Christ, Obeying God leads to righteousness, sinning leads one down the wrong path Rom 6:16

there is no circumcision in the Ten Commandments. Paul contrasted these laws and came to this conclusion

1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

James is only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments, breaking one, we break them all. Its a standalone unit , placed inside the ark of the Covenant, under Christ mercy seat, written by the Authority of God Exo 32:16 Which is why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these Mat 5:19-30

There are many laws that serves different purposes, the main law in Galatians is about circumcision. There is no circumcision in the Ten Commandments.

Again, the law being referred to is circumcision. No wonder why we have this warning in scripture about Paul 2 Peter 3:16. Paul is not teaching us to not obey the Ten Commandments and we can now start coveting, worshipping other gods, murder or break the least of these commandments, the opposite of what Jesus taught and lived.

Because what does Jesus teach?

John 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

He teaches us to be obedient to His law. Not so we make ourselves righteous, because we love and have faith in Christ who is righteous and lived righteously and kept all of the commandments and is without sin who lived to be our example to follow in His footsteps. 1 Peter 2:21-22 1 John 2:6

Right. We can't save ourselves- we need a Savior and our Savior tells us to obey the law. John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Not to be saved, but because we have faith to live by His every Word. Our obedience to God's law is not to be saved, it is a consequence of being saved. Rev 14:12 verses the lost Rom 8:7-8

Same as before, nothing has changed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Same as before, nothing has changed.

Agreed. And all gets sorted out soon enough.

But I do wish you well.

 

[Grip Docility]

Matthew 22:11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No law, no sin.

I see you have confirmed my understanding of your POV. Except you havn't explained how God can exist outside any distinction between good and evil.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Matthew 22:11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

This discussion does bring in many concerns.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I see you have confirmed my understanding of your POV.

I'm not quoting me.

Except you havn't explained how God can exist outside any distinction between good and evil.

It was never God's plan for Lucifer to sin or for man to listen to the other spirit in the garden - God made everything good, good and very good. Because He loves us so much, He allows this to continue, because we all have choices to make. God never forces us to love and obey Him, because that's not true love, He never made us robots. But He promises one day soon, all sin and sinners will be destroyed forever and His saints with live with Him forevermore- in peace and harmony Isa 48:18 the way it was always intended.

 

[Gary K]

It's something I don't like to speak of. This is a topic that is mostly misunderstood. This is something that I can exegete effectively in a way that is not pleasant to look at.

Just as Jesus said to those that bound people to the Stone Law, He was right there in front of them (YHWH is Salvation; YeHoshua) and they didn't BELIEVE. He could not forgive sinners that thought they could be sinless because a doctor can't help a patient that "thinks they are well".

Why don't you like to speak to it? Because it doesn't fit your theology? This has nothing to do with with forgiveness. Korah, Dathan and Abiram were swallowed alive by the earth in a miraculous fashion. Moses and God told the people to move away from them and then the earth swallowed them whole. Numbers 16 tells the entire story of their rebellion.

 

[Grip Docility]

Why don't you like to speak to it? Because it doesn't fit your theology? This has nothing to do with with forgiveness. Korah, Dathan and Abiram were swallowed alive by the earth in a miraculous fashion. Moses and God told the people to move away from them and then the earth swallowed them whole. Numbers 16 tells the entire story of their rebellion.

Because it is not pleasant to speak on this matter. Korah was a rebellion of self righteousness. This is the heart of condemnation scripture. I can exegete it to the bone and it is painful to see.

 

[Gary K]

Because it is not pleasant to speak on this matter. Korah was a rebellion of self righteousness. This is the heart of condemnation scripture. I can exegete it to the bone and it is painful to see.

It was a rebellion of arrogancy against God and His chosen servants.

 

[Grip Docility]

It was a rebellion of arrogancy against God and His chosen servants.

Correct. Self Righteousness… like the Pharisees. Like the Gnostics

 

[Gary K]

Correct. Self Righteousness… like the Pharisees. Like the Gnostics

Wrong. The Pharisees were given time to repent. Korah, Dathan and Abiram never had the chance to repent.

 

[Grip Docility]

Wrong. The Pharisees were given time to repent. Korah, Dathan and Abiram never had the chance to repent.

I’m so loaded with scripture and conviction on this, I don’t really have to stress.

The scripture is there. Matthew 23 is a good start. Those that look down on others as sinners that don’t meet their standards of HOW TO BE righteous in the flesh are the centerpiece of condemnation scripture.

Easy starting point;

The Parable about the Tax Collector and the Pharisee.