Sinning Willfully, a study in Hebrews

[Grip Docility]

It makes it unsound when it goes against what Jesus taught. Paul is hard to understand and comes with a stern warning for a reason 2 Peter 3:16

Paul is contrasting the New Covenant with the Old Covenant. The difference in the New Covenant, why it’s much more glorious is it has God the one doing. Heb 8:10. The old covenant is based on the people doing Exo 19:8 God said He would not alter the words of the Covenant Psa 89:34 God keeps His promises, why the New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6, not better laws, it still has God’s law, which is perfect Psa 19:7 and righteous Psa 119:172 Rom 7:12 but now God is writing it in our hearts and minds- from tables of stone to tablets of the heart. It’s why its still a sin to break any of the Ten Commandments even in the NC 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 but instead of bringing an animal sacrifice to a human priest, we can go directly to Jesus, who is our High Priest when we repent (change of heart) and sin and when He heals He says go and sin no more. We need to leave the old man behind and walk in newness with Him, who changes our heart and enables us to obey Him through love and faith.

We have been through this. More than once. We don’t have to agree, but I would consider any teaching from Paul, if Jesus does not teach the same thing, changes out its being misinterpreted out of context.

Paul is the very voice of Heavenly Jesus Christ, per Paul.

Galatians 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul is the very voice of Heavenly Jesus Christ, per Paul.

Paul is a servant of Christ Rom 1:1 and a servant is not greater than their master John 13:16

The warning of Paul's writing is pretty serious 2 Peter 3:16, why would Paul contradict Jesus? He wouldn’t, so any teaching that “shows” he did I would consider the warning, Many twist his teachings and if it goes against the teaching of Jesus, its out of context. Why risk it. Jesus is the WAY, not Paul. Paul was a human, Jesus is our SAVIOR.

 

[Grip Docility]

Paul is a servant of Christ Rom 1:1 and a servant is not greater than their master John 16:13

The warning of Pau’s writing is pretty serious 2 Peter 3:16, why would Paul contradict Jesus? He wouldn’t, so any teaching that shows he did I would consider the warning, but we have free will.

Galatians 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Who is Paul claiming to speak for? Obviously he is the SERVANT. He is the picture of THE BODY OF CHRIST. Christ is the Head.

 

[HIM]

If this point of disagreement is about the Law of sin and death...

Show within what is shared and the text given what you think is wrong within the text and points shared and we will go from there.

No sense moving from there if you don't see it. Here it is again.



" The Law of sin is not mentioned until verse 23 in chapter 7. The context which shows us what the Law of sin is starts in verse 18. Paul states that he can't find how to do good. The good that he would, he doesn't. But the evil that he wouldn't that he does. In respect to doing what he wouldn't, he states that it isn't him doing but sin dwelling in Him. He then states that he discovered, found a law that, when he would do good, evil is present with him. As he proceeds he calls this law another law and then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And in mentioning this, He states that he delights in the Law of God. In doing this he establishes a contrast between the Law of God and the Law of sin. Therefore they are not the same.

Through all this he cries out in despair, "o wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

Then proclaims making another contrast between the Law of God and the Law of sin. He thanks God that with his mind he serves the Law of God.... but in despair he also recognizes with his flesh he serves the law of sin.

The law of sin is we can't help what we do outside of Christ's spirit giving us the power. For it is He that works in us both to will AND do His good pleasure.
As Jesus said, he that commits sin is a slave to it. And as Jesus continued emphatically in John 8. And the servant of sin shall not abide in the house forever. But the Son shall forever. And if the Son shall set you free, free you are indeed. For the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus his set us free from the Law of sin AND death. That the righteousness of the Law, God's Law be fulfilled in us who WALK AFTER the Spirit and not after the flesh. For if you walk after the flesh YOU SHAL DIE. Not abide in the house forever. But if we mortify the deeds of the Body through Christ and His Spirit we shall live. AMEN

So where are we walking?"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Galatians 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Who is Paul claiming to speak for? Obviously he is the SERVANT. He is the picture of THE BODY OF CHRIST. Christ is the Head.

You misunderstand, of course Paul is inspired but an inspired person would NEVER teach in contradiction to Jesus. It’s not Paul’s writings that are the issue, it’s the people who use them as a weapon against what Jesus taught and lived.

 

[Grip Docility]

Paul is a servant of Christ Rom 1:1 and a servant is not greater than their master John 16:13

The warning of Paul's writing is pretty serious 2 Peter 3:16, why would Paul contradict Jesus? He wouldn’t, so any teaching that “shows” he did I would consider the warning, Many twist his teachings and if it goes against the teaching of Jesus, its out of context. Why risk it. Jesus is the WAY, not Paul. Paul is a human, Jesus is our SAVIOR.

Paul says that the Gospel he speaks cannot be changed by any human being or angel. He states that He received it directly from Jesus.

Jesus is our Savior and Paul Agrees.

When Paul speaks that the Ministry of Death is Chiseled in stone, He is speaking of a very critical portion of the Gospel REVELATION revealed to him by Heavenly Jesus.

At no point have I stated anything other than Jesus is our Savior. I would appreciate it if you find a quote that suggests otherwise, so I can correct it. I will say it again. Paul states that he speaks for Heavenly Jesus Christ... and I will add, Heavenly Jesus Christ Who is most Definitely our One and Only Savior... to make this more clear.

 

[Grip Docility]

Show within what is shared and the text given what you think is wrong within the text and points shared and we will go from there.

No sense moving from there if you don't see it. Here it is again.



" The Law of sin is not mentioned until verse 23 in chapter 7. The context which shows us what the Law of sin is starts in verse 18. Paul states that he can't find how to do good. The good that he would, he doesn't. But the evil that he wouldn't that he does. In respect to doing what he wouldn't, he states that it isn't him doing but sin dwelling in Him. He then states that he discovered, found a law that, when he would do good, evil is present with him. As he proceeds he calls this law another law and then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And in mentioning this, He states that he delights in the Law of God. In doing this he establishes a contrast between the Law of God and the Law of sin. Therefore they are not the same.

Through all this he cries out in despair, "o wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

Then proclaims making another contrast between the Law of God and the Law of sin. He thanks God that with his mind he serves the Law of God.... but in despair he also recognizes with his flesh he serves the law of sin.

The law of sin is we can't help what we do outside of Christ's spirit giving us the power. For it is He that works in us both to will AND do His good pleasure.
As Jesus said, he that commits sin is a slave to it. And as Jesus continued emphatically in John 8. And the servant of sin shall not abide in the house forever. But the Son shall forever. And if the Son shall set you free, free you are indeed. For the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus his set us free from the Law of sin AND death. That the righteousness of the Law, God's Law be fulfilled in us who WALK AFTER the Spirit and not after the flesh. For if you walk after the flesh YOU SHAL DIE. Not abide in the house forever. But if we mortify the deeds of the Body through Christ and His Spirit we shall live. AMEN

So where are we walking?"

I apologize for cutting through the chase, but, What does "Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone" mean?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul says that the Gospel he speaks cannot be changed by any human being or angel. He states that He received it directly from Jesus.

Jesus is our Savior and Paul Agrees.

When Paul speaks that the Ministry of Death is Chiseled in stone, He is speaking of the Gospel REVELATION revealed to him by Heavenly Jesus.

At no point have I stated anything other than Jesus is our Savior. I challenge you to quote anything that suggests such. I will say it again. Paul states that he speaks for Heavenly Jesus Christ... and I will add, Heavenly Jesus Christ Who is MOST Definitely our One and Only Savior... to make this more clear.

Sigh, who said anything about Jesus not being our Savior. I am talking about Paul’s teachings and how they harmonize with the teachings of Jesus, not contradict. All inspired teachings must harmonize with Christ and be reconciled with Christ, not the other way around.

Paul is not contradicting God- who said I will not alter my words Psa 89:34 as if Paul the servant could do away with the LAW OF GOD written by GOD personally, that he himself taught and kept. We should never make God out to break His promise, so obviously if we find a scripture we think does, we need to search further, especially if its someone we are told many easily misunderstand and twist. , So when we take Paul’s out of context scripture that do not harmonize with God- the Creator of all heavens and earth, the Creator of Paul and you and I, this warning should be considered 2 Peter 3:16.

We have free will, but considering the stern warning, its there for a reason, not because people don’t do it.

 

[Grip Docility]

Sigh, who said anything about Jesus not being our Savior. I am talking about Paul’s teachings and how they harmonize with the teachings of Jesus, not contradict.

Paul is not contradicting God- who said I will not alter my words Psa 89:34 as if Paul the servant could do away with the LAW OF GOD written by GOD personally. So when we take Paul’s out of context scripture that do not harmonize with God- the Creator of all heavens and earth, the creator of Paul and you and I, this warning should be considered 2 Peter 3:16.

We have free will, but its something I would consider.

Paul specifically states that the "Ministry of Death is chiseled in Stone". Do you know of another human being that speaks for Jesus on a higher authority than Paul, for Jesus? Are they found in biblical cannon and Did they say the Gospel was Revealed to them by Heavenly Jesus Christ?

 

[HIM]

I apologize for cutting through the chase, but, What does "Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone" mean?

It is not cutting through what you call the chase, it is obfuscating. You said the Law of Sin is the Law of God which is called the Law of Moses.

It clearly is not as this post which we will repost here shows. Recant what you taught which was untrue and we will continue. That is what we are here for. But the prerequisite to do so is more important than moving on to another text

.


"Because The Law of sin is not mentioned until verse 23 in chapter 7. The context which shows us what the Law of sin is starts in verse 18. Paul states that he can't find how to do good. The good that he would, he doesn't. But the evil that he wouldn't that he does. In respect to doing what he wouldn't, he states that it isn't him doing but sin dwelling in Him. He then states that he discovered, found a law that, when he would do good, evil is present with him. As he proceeds he calls this law another law and then gives it a name. He calls it the Law of sin. And in mentioning this, He states that he delights in the Law of God. In doing this he establishes a contrast between the Law of God and the Law of sin. Therefore they are not the same.

Through all this he cries out in despair, "o wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

Then proclaims making another contrast between the Law of God and the Law of sin. He thanks God that with his mind he serves the Law of God.... but in despair he also recognizes with his flesh he serves the law of sin.

The law of sin is we can't help what we do outside of Christ's spirit giving us the power. For it is He that works in us both to will AND do His good pleasure.
As Jesus said, he that commits sin is a slave to it. And as Jesus continued emphatically in John 8. And the servant of sin shall not abide in the house forever. But the Son shall forever. And if the Son shall set you free, free you are indeed. For the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus his set us free from the Law of sin AND death. That the righteousness of the Law, God's Law be fulfilled in us who WALK AFTER the Spirit and not after the flesh. For if you walk after the flesh YOU SHAL DIE. Not abide in the house forever. But if we mortify the deeds of the Body through Christ and His Spirit we shall live. AMEN

So where are we walking?"

 

[Grip Docility]

It is not cutting through what you call chase it is obfuscating. You said the Law of Sin is the Law of God which is called the Law of Moses.

Him, respectfully, what I said was that " the Law of Sin and Death is Moses." Now that I have fully stated what I have been stating, could you please tell me how this isn't saying that very thing?

"The Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul specifically states that the "Ministry of Death is chiseled in Stone". Do you know of another human being that speaks for Jesus on a higher authority than Paul, for Jesus? Are they found in biblical cannon and Did they say the Gospel was Revealed to them by Heavenly Jesus Christ?

I explained what it means, but if you want to make God out to break His promises Psa 89:34 and contradict the teachings of Jesus such as Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-8 Mat 19:17-19 thats your free will. I don’t think He does and trust when He said He will not alter something, He means exactly what He says. So either God made a mistake, or someone doesn’t understand some of the difficult passages we are warned about with Paul. I am going with the latter.

Take care.

 

[Grip Docility]

I explained what it means, but if you want to make God out to break His promises Psa 89:34 thats your free will. I don’t think He does and trust when He said He will not alter something, He means exactly what He says.

Take care.

You haven't addressed this, in my opinion. It specifically states that "The Ministry of Death is chiseled on Stone". This is directly the Law of Sin and Death.

The Ministry of Death is chiseled on Stone and shows that we are guilty of sin. This is hermeneutic in respects to all of Paul's writings. Love Constrains us. The Stone Convicts us of Sin and thus brings Death. Love forgives us and frees us from the Conviction of the Stone Law of sin and death.

The Law of the Spirit asks that we don't look as ourselves, but Jesus Christ, alone. The Holy Spirit does powerful work in us, as we trust in Jesus, alone, as Beyond Sufficient to Save us, despite our "dead" works. We are thus commanded to Love and we can only do so, by the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You haven't addressed this. It specifically states that "The Ministry of Death is chiseled on Stone". This is directly the Law of Sin and Death.

The Ministry of Death is chiseled on Stone and shows that we are guilty of sin. This is hermeneutic in respects to all of Paul's writings. Love Constrains us. The Stone Convicts us of Sin and thus brings Death. Love forgives us and frees us from the Conviction of the Stone Law of sin and death.

The Law of the Spirit asks that we don't look as ourselves, but Jesus Christ, alone. The Holy Spirit does powerful work in us, as we trust in Jesus, alone as Beyond Sufficient to Save us, despite our "dead" works.

He is contrasting the letter versus the Spirit. Written in stone, versus written in the heart, people doing versus God doing. Death is the wages of sin, breaking God’s law, its still true for today, but we have another choice, we can choose Christ and in doing so He imputes His righteousness and would be living just as He lived for our example.

Does Jesus teach we don’t have to keep the Ten Commmandment- not once. He taught and lived the opposite.

 

[Gary K]

Here is my decision on this thread.

Matthew 7: 6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[Grip Docility]

Here is my decision on this thread.

Matthew 7: 6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

This is a partial quote to you from one of my earlier posts...

Gary K,

My sibling in Jesus,..... I have been convicted that it is only God that can show these things to people. I am a sinner, dependent on God's mercy, just like all of us here and I am commanded to Build up in Love, not light my tongue on fire and tear people down with scripture.

All love to you in Jesus Christ, sibling in Him.

So, to Me, who said this to you, Saying that Jesus is my only Hope, makes me a Pig and a Dog?

@HIM, You're calling me a Pig and a Dog for saying that Jesus is my only hope, also, by liking that post?

So be it. May the Lord Bless both of you with all of His Grace, Peace and Love. All Love in Jesus Christ to both of you, my siblings in Jesus Christ.

Gary K., if you think this reply is arrogant or any of the sorts as you said earlier, I have one question for you. Who taught me to respond in this manner when I have been cursed?

 

[Grip Docility]

He is contrasting the letter versus the Spirit. Written in stone, versus written in the heart, people doing versus God doing. Death is the wages of sin, breaking God’s law, its still true for today, but we have another choice, we can choose Christ and in doing so He imputes His righteousness and would be living just as He lived for our example.

Does Jesus teach we don’t have to keep the Ten Commandment- not once. He taught and lived the opposite.

Jesus was a Jew. He was born under the Law and circumcised on the eighth day, per the Law. Jesus is our Christ. Jesus died under the Law of sin and death, falsely convicted by Moses as a Blasphemer.

I am a Jew by blood, not a Jew by religion. I am a Christian, follower of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was indeed only revealed by Paul who was taught it directly by Heavenly Jesus Christ.

If Death is the Wages of Breaking God's 10 Commandments, which is defined as Sin, How is the Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone, not the Law of Sin and Death? Jesus didn't Die for Sinners so that they could break the 10 commandments. Jesus died for Sinners because they do break His commandants.

My overarching point is that we are not to shut the kingdom up to people. Jesus died for Sinners. His Blood is All sufficient, if one simply changes their mind from self(flesh/sarx/Moses) and turns to Jesus Christ. He provides HIS Righteous life in place of ours and commands us to Love one another in the same way He loved us. He forgave us. He Loved us. He taught us, commanded us to Love one another.

I do not set aside the Grace of Jesus Christ, for if Righteousness comes by the Law of Moses, Jesus Christ would not have had to die. This is a Trust Worthy Statement; Jesus Christ came to Justify Sinners, of which I am part of the Body made up of so much as the least of these. Jesus desired that the 99 would be left, to seek out the 1. He is my Heart's Desire and Him alone do I behold in prayer and hope that I may grow in Faith that bears Love from His indwelling Holy Spirit within to every 1.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sabbath Blessings, who is in Jesus Christ. Happy Shabbat (Sabbath) to you and all of your fellow Sabbatarians.

- Grip

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus was a Jew. He was born under the Law and circumcised on the eighth day, per the Law. Jesus is our Christ. Jesus died under the Law of sin and death, falsely convicted by Moses as a Blasphemer.

I am a Jew by blood, not a Jew by religion. I am a Christian, follower of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was indeed only revealed by Paul who was taught it directly by Heavenly Jesus Christ.

If Death is the Wages of Breaking God's 10 Commandments, which is defined as Sin, How is the Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone, not the Law of Sin and Death? Jesus didn't Die for Sinners so that they could break the 10 commandments. Jesus died for Sinners because they do break His commandants.

My overarching point is that we are not to shut the kingdom up to people. Jesus died for Sinners. His Blood is All sufficient, if one simply changes their mind from self(flesh/sarx/Moses) and turns to Jesus Christ. He provides HIS Righteous life in place of ours and commands us to Love one another in the same way He loved us. He forgave us. He Loved us. He taught us, commanded us to Love one another.

I do not set aside the Grace of Jesus Christ, for if Righteousness comes by the Law of Moses, Jesus Christ would not have had to die. This is a Trust Worthy Statement; Jesus Christ came to Justify Sinners, of which I am part of the Body made up of so much as the least of these. Jesus desired that the 99 would be left, to seek out the 1. He is my Heart's Desire and Him alone do I behold in prayer and hope that I may grow in Faith that bears Love from His indwelling Holy Spirit within to every 1.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sabbath Blessings, who is in Jesus Christ. Happy Shabbat (Sabbath) to you and all of your fellow Sabbatarians.

- Grip

Finding reasons not follow Jesus as our example is never a good idea in my opinion as there is no such provision in scripture. 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 21-22. Jesus could not have been our Savior or example if He didn’t obey the laws as our example Heb 4:15, just as Jesus lived and taught. Circumcision was addressed to death in scripture found all over Galatians, Corinthians and Acts. Paul made the distinctions between circumcision (ceremonial law) and the commandments of God and said keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19, because Jesus taught breaking or teaching others to break the least of these, comes with a warning Mat 5:19-30

I still don’t think you have a good grasp of the differences between the law of Moses and the Ten Commandments that God calls “My commandments” Exo 20:6 not the commandments of Moses- they are not the same Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Deut 5:22

For every scripture you quote on Paul as a means of teaching perceived lawlessness I can quote him saying the opposite….

Here’s one… Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
So either Paul is constantly contradicting himself and Jesus or one doesn’t understand Pauls writings.

Jesus would not had to die if we could just remove the law- because where there is no law there is no transgression Rom 4:15. Jesus took the penalty or condemnation of the law because He died for sinners, which is all of us. Not everyone accepts His free gift, because when we do, we too must die with Him and live in newness in His imputed righteousness. Living in newness is not dismissing what Jesus taught or lived, its quite the opposite. It’s living how Jesus lived, He didn’t just come to earth to die for our sins, He showed our how a righteous person lives. Jesus always led by example. He is the only WAY, but if one wants to live by someone else’s example instead of our Savior, we can make that choice. It’s all about choices.

Anyway, we have been down this path too many times to continue. You misunderstood what Gary was saying. There is a time when people are so closed off to God’s truth that you need to put away the pearls and move on, I think he is right. All of God’s commandments are Truth Psa 119:151. His Truth, the problem is when we think our truth is above His.

I guess we will end up where we usually do, agree to disagree but I truly wish you well in seeking Truth to God’s Word.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread is closed at OP request.​