WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

[Valletta]

Apart fro the bible saying nothing about Mary being a queen, she didn't ask Jesus anything. We are not told that she said, "Please give them some wine." She said, "They have no wine."

I just went over Isaiah, the mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, is the queen mother. I would not like to tell Jesus that I believed the Son of David or his mother are not good enough for her to be called queen as previous Davidic kingdom queens were. Likewise Mary is seen in Revelation, the mother of Jesus, clothed in the sun and wearing a crown of twelve stars. A queen wears a crown. This also has a secondary meaning, Israel had 12 tribes like there were 12 Apostles.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, you're quite right, and I think if the RC Church does believe, as I said, in calling on the saints to pray for us rather than praying to them, it ought to make it clearer for its adherents.

You have to address a saint, as we address the angels in Psalm 103, that means we pray to them (no, not worship them), with them, and ask them to pray for us or for others. The saints surround us in prayer, Catholics believe in the "communion of saints." It is important to understand that those in Heaven are alive, not dead.

 

[Servus]

I just went over Isaiah, the mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, is the queen mother. I would not like to tell Jesus that I believed the Son of David or his mother are not good enough for her to be called queen as previous Davidic kingdom queens were. Likewise Mary is seen in Revelation, the mother of Jesus, clothed in the sun and wearing a crown of twelve stars. A queen wears a crown. This also has a secondary meaning, Israel had 12 tribes like there were 12 Apostles.

The problem is Jesus is the Son of David. So David's mother would be the queen mother of David. Yet she's not even mentioned.

 

[Servus]

You have to address a saint, as we address the angels in Psalm 103, that means we pray to them (no, not worship them), with them, and ask them to pray for us or for others. The saints surround us in prayer, Catholics believe in the "communion of saints." It is important to understand that those in Heaven are alive, not dead.

Sometimes I'm a little surprised that you can post these statements from the RCC so many times and yet never seem to see the inherent problems in them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Writing about idols, a Jewish mystic pointed out that if idols are forbidden based on the conventional understanding then why are two idols basically of cherubim hidden inside the ark ?

Or this...

1. Numbers 21:8
   Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and put it on a flag pole; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, and looks at it, will live.”
   So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on the flag pole; and it came about, that if a serpent bit someone, and he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

 

[Carl Emerson]

amps=volts/ohms is God's law, but you won't find it in the Bible

That is not God's Law - He walked on Water and turned the sun back.

 

[concretecamper]

Nothing there about listening to the church teaching truths other than those found in the bible,

Jesus didn't say "Listen to the Church, as long as it agrees with the Bible". You like to add to Scripture, don't you.

 

[Jipsah]

That is not God's Law -

Wait, Ohm's Law isn't God's Law? I'm sorry, who do you reckon made electricity and electronics work like they do? It's all part of God's design, isn't it? Or did He delegate design for the EM spectrum to somone else so He could spend His time walking on the water?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Wait, Ohm's Law isn't God's Law? I'm sorry, who do you reckon made electricity and electronics work like they do? It's all part of God's design, isn't it? Or did He delegate design for the EM spectrum to somone else so He could spend His time walking on the water?

God is not subject to the 'laws' of the universe.

 

[Jipsah]

God is not subject to the 'laws' of the universe.

God CREATED the Laws of the universe!

 

[David Lamb]

I just went over Isaiah, the mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, is the queen mother. I would not like to tell Jesus that I believed the Son of David or his mother are not good enough for her to be called queen as previous Davidic kingdom queens were. Likewise Mary is seen in Revelation, the mother of Jesus, clothed in the sun and wearing a crown of twelve stars. A queen wears a crown. This also has a secondary meaning, Israel had 12 tribes like there were 12 Apostles.

I would not tell Jesus anything. But I prefer to consider what He tells us. Does He ever refer to His mother as a queen? Does He tell His followers to treat her as a queen? As for Revelation 12:1, I don't believe the woman with the crown with twelve stars is Mary, and all the bible commentaries I've read on that verse say the same. For instance, John Gill says: "But Mary, and the birth of Christ, can never be intended in this vision, that affair being past and over, and would never be represented to John in this manner, who was well acquainted with it:" The commentaries view the woman as referring to the church of Jesus Christ.

 

[prodromos]

The eastern churches broke off because the pope changed a couple of words in the creed without consulting eastern bishops and they said a council would need to be called to make a change.

How is it that you say the Eastern churches broke off, when it was Rome that went her own way while they remained as they were before?

 

[Carl Emerson]

God CREATED the Laws of the universe!

Yes of course, but God is not subject to them.

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus didn't say "Listen to the Church, as long as it agrees with the Bible". You like to add to Scripture, don't you.

If you believe that the bible is God's Word, it cannot be that Jesus would tell His followers to listen to a church which teaches something contrary to what is in the bible. If you don't believe that the bible is God's Word, then obviously you will never agree with somebody who believes that it is.

 

[Valletta]

I would not tell Jesus anything. But I prefer to consider what He tells us. Does He ever refer to His mother as a queen? Does He tell His followers to treat her as a queen? As for Revelation 12:1, I don't believe the woman with the crown with twelve stars is Mary, and all the bible commentaries I've read on that verse say the same. For instance, John Gill says: "But Mary, and the birth of Christ, can never be intended in this vision, that affair being past and over, and would never be represented to John in this manner, who was well acquainted with it:" The commentaries view the woman as referring to the church of Jesus Christ.

It just seems to me that if it is a Catholic understanding you raise the bar for what the Bible needs to say. In your past example, although Jesus obviously takes Mary's statement about there being no wine as a request, since she didn't actually phrase it to your liking then you don' consider it a request. So too although the Word of God states that mother of the king, starting with Solomon, is the queen mother, this is not good enough for you. Jesus does not have to be quoted in order for it to be true. ALL of the Bible is beneficial and inerrant.
Revelation says the woman "brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron."
Psalm 2:7-9
7 I will tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my son,
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron,
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” RSVCE
This is a reference to Jesus, and Mary is his mother. She is a real woman, a real woman wears clothes, and a real woman who is a queen wears a crown. And most of all she is the one who brought forth Jesus. It seems you've quite limited yourself to only Bible commentaries that exclude the identification of Mary. They apparently confuse the identification with the depicted birth. The birth described is about "multiple offspring." I'm a member of a parish named after Saint Piux X ("to restore all things in Christ") Here's what Saint Pius X said:
"What birth was it? Surely it was the birth of us who, still in exile, are yet to be generated to the perfect charity of God, and to eternal happiness. And the birth pains show the love and desire with which the Virgin from heaven above watches over us, and strives with unwearying prayer to bring about the fulfillment of the number of the elect" (Pope St. Pius X, Ad Diem illum Laetissimum).

 

[Valletta]

If you believe that the bible is God's Word, it cannot be that Jesus would tell His followers to listen to a church which teaches something contrary to what is in the bible. If you don't believe that the bible is God's Word, then obviously you will never agree with somebody who believes that it is.

The Catholic Church teaches nothing that contradicts the Bible. The Catholic Church, in a process spanning centuries, chose the 73 books of the Bible. No Catholic Church--no Bible. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. When considering potential books for the Bible anything that contradicted Catholic teaching was rejected. We know that all of the Bible is inerrant and God-breathed.

 

[David Lamb]

The Catholic Church teaches nothing that contradicts the Bible. The Catholic Church, in a process spanning centuries, chose the 73 books of the Bible. No Catholic Church--no Bible. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. When considering potential books for the Bible anything that contradicted Catholic teaching was rejected. We know that all of the Bible is inerrant and God-breathed.

Well, there are all sorts of things that the Roman Catholic church practises or teaches which aren't in the bible. For example, the infallibility of the pope, the need to confess sins to a "priest", the idea of clergy having to be celibate, the notion of "canonising" saints, to list just four.

 

[Valletta]

Well, there are all sorts of things that the Roman Catholic church practises or teaches which aren't in the bible. For example, the infallibility of the pope, the need to confess sins to a "priest", the idea of clergy having to be celibate, the notion of "canonising" saints, to list just four.

That's a lot different than contradicting the Bible. Realize that the Catholic Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written. The Catholic Church finalized the books of the Bible in the late 300s, and Bible-only religions began a thousand or so years later. Both Catholic and Protestants have numerous practices and beliefs that are not explicitly in the Bible, but the Catholic Church never claimed to be Bible-only. It is, however, right in the Bible that Jesus gave the Apostles (and thus their successors) the power to forgive or retain sin. Celibacy, like fasting, is a discipline of the Catholic Church. Jesus left such things up to Peter and his successors. The creation of the Bible itself was left up to the Catholic Church, since most of the Apostles never wrote anything down that we know of it seemed evident Jesus did not command them to do so. The Catholic Church (certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit) selected 73 books and set the order of those books.

 

[David Lamb]

That's a lot different than contradicting the Bible. Realize that the Catholic Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written. The Catholic Church finalized the books of the Bible in the late 300s, and Bible-only religions began a thousand or so years later. Both Catholic and Protestants have numerous practices and beliefs that are not explicitly in the Bible, but the Catholic Church never claimed to be Bible-only. It is, however, right in the Bible that Jesus gave the Apostles (and thus their successors) the power to forgive or retain sin. Celibacy, like fasting, is a discipline of the Catholic Church. Jesus left such things up to Peter and his successors. The creation of the Bible itself was left up to the Catholic Church, since most of the Apostles never wrote anything down that we know of it seemed evident Jesus did not command them to do so. The Catholic Church (certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit) selected 73 books and set the order of those books.

Well, I know that Roman Catholics believe that Roman Catholicism predates the writing of the New Testament. I am sure no Christian back in those early days believed in the church of Roman as anything other than the local body of Christians to whom Paul addressed the Letter to the Romans. We seem to differ so much on such basic matters that it is difficult to know how to answer you. Rather than completely derailing this thread, I will leave it there. Thank you for your replies.

 

[concretecamper]

If you believe that the bible is God's Word, it cannot be that Jesus would tell His followers to listen to a church which teaches something contrary to what is in the bible. If you don't believe that the bible is God's Word, then obviously you will never agree with somebody who believes that it is.

The Church doesn't teach anything that is at odds with the Bible.

Your claim seems to be that if isn't in the Bible, then one shouldn't teach it. But that brings us back to the fact that the Bible never claims to contain all that is necessary for salvation.

Like I said before, you can approach the Bible in that manner, but it would be an unbiblical approach.