WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

[Servus]

The growth of Christianity mimics the growth of every other human institution. They are all built upon a human foundation and even Christianity moved away from truth only coming from the Father. The Kingdom was set aside to rejoin the world of man. The religion builders accepted what Jesus rejected in the desert. The result is a religion that serves man's purposes over the will of God.

The foundation is the Rock ie Christ. It's the wood, hay or straw built upon it that's the problem.

 

[timothyu]

The foundation is the Rock ie Christ.

Yes the truth that only comes from God, not mankind

 

[Jipsah]

Yes the truth that only comes from God, not mankind

amps=volts/ohms is God's law, but you won't find it in the Bible

 

[David Lamb]

18th Chapter of Matthew's Gospel.

The only mention of "church" in Matthew 18 is in this passage:

“15 ¶ "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell [it] to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.” (Mt 18:15-17 NKJV)

Nothing there about listening to the church teaching truths other than those found in the bible, only hearing the church's ruling on the member who sinned against another. Certainly there is no example of Jesus teaching people that they should listen to church which teaches truths that are not in the bible.

 

[David Lamb]

The Word of God says so.

Sorry, I cannot find any reference in the bible to Mary making requests to Jesus on our behalf in the same way that the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom made requests of the king.

 

[Valletta]

Sorry, I cannot find any reference in the bible to Mary making requests to Jesus on our behalf in the same way that the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom made requests of the king.

Mary is the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom. ​

The Wedding at Cana​

2 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me?[a] My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” John 2:1-10 RSVCE

 

[David Lamb]

Mary is the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom. ​

The Wedding at Cana​

2 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me?[a] My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” John 2:1-10 RSVCE

There is no reference in that passage to the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom. It seems a great stretch to take Mary's words, "They have no wine," as being her praying to her Son on behalf of the organisers of the wedding feast.

 

[Servus]

Mary is the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom. ​

The Wedding at Cana​

2 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me?[a] My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” John 2:1-10 RSVCE

Therefore just as Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king’s mother; so she sat at his right hand.

Therefore Mary the Mother of God Queen of the Davidic Kingdom goes to King Jesus to speak for us on behalf of our prayers to Her. And the King bows down to Her and set a thrown for Her at His right hand. John 2:10 Extended Version.

 

[Servus]

There is no reference in that passage to the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom. It seems a great stretch to take Mary's words, "They have no wine," as being her praying to her Son on behalf of the organisers of the wedding feast.

Yes pairing John 2:1-10 with 1 Kings 2:19 is quite a stretch.

 

[Valletta]

There is no reference in that passage to the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom. It seems a great stretch to take Mary's words, "They have no wine," as being her praying to her Son on behalf of the organisers of the wedding feast.

The queen makes requests of the king. Why would she pray to her Son if he was right there and she could verbally ask him?

 

[David Lamb]

The queen makes requests of the king. Why would she pray to her Son if he was right there and she could verbally ask him?

Apart fro the bible saying nothing about Mary being a queen, she didn't ask Jesus anything. We are not told that she said, "Please give them some wine." She said, "They have no wine."

 

[Lily_o_valley]

If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would praying to Mary be something we would do?

Are you referring to the Catholic practice? As far as I understand it, rather than praying *to* Mary or other saints, the intention is to call on the saints to pray for us. I think this is the Catholic understanding of the "Communion of Saints". People who use the phrase "praying to Mary" may be misunderstanding the practice and the understanding (Catholics included!)

 

[David Lamb]

Are you referring to the Catholic practice? As far as I understand it, rather than praying *to* Mary or other saints, the intention is to call on the saints to pray for us. I think this is the Catholic understanding of the "Communion of Saints". People who use the phrase "praying to Mary" may be misunderstanding the practice and the understanding (Catholics included!)

I know Google searches can be misleading, but it does seem clear that many people do pray to Mary. Here is one example of many I found on the internet: "We fly to thy protection, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers O glorious and blessed Virgin." That seems most definitely to be praying to Mary, not merely asking her to pray for us. But neither is taught or practised in the bible.

 

[Lily_o_valley]

I know Google searches can be misleading, but does seem clear that many people do pray to Mary. Here is one example of many I found on the internet: "We fly to thy protection, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers O glorious and blessed Virgin." That seems most definitely to be praying to Mary, not merely asking her to pray for us. But neither is taught or practised in the bible.

Yes, you're quite right, and I think if the RC Church does believe, as I said, in calling on the saints to pray for us rather than praying to them, it ought to make it clearer for its adherents.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, you're quite right, and I think if the RC Church does believe, as I said, in calling on the saints to pray for us rather than praying to them, it ought to make it clearer for its adherents.

But even asking her (or "saints") to pray for us is also unbiblical. The bible does teach Christians that they are to pray for one another, but there's no indication that they are to ask Christians who have died to pray for them. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Lily_o_valley]

But even asking her (or "saints") to pray for us is also unbiblical. The bible does teach Christians that they are to pray for one another, but there's no indication that they are to ask Christians who have died to pray for them. Thanks for the reply.

I don't disagree, but Roman Catholicism isn't Sola Scriptura of course, tradition for them carries a significant authority, if not equal to scripture.

 

[christian-surfer]

I was heavily influenced by the Protestant religion and Bible commentaries and I often go to Protestant types of services. I am not really convinced however that Protestantism is the only true religion. Protestants have splintered off into many different groups who disagree about infant baptisms and other things.

I have studied the lives of some catholic saints and some of those I find very remarkable. It seems however that religion always has different contentious beliefs. When I was younger i sometimes would go to church and debate about meditation practices and different religions but nowadays I often don’t mention things like that very often.

The Bible says Jesus had a brother but the Catholic argument is that he was not a brother by birth. That seems like it could be true. This is important to catholics who believe that she never gave birth to other children. The Bible doesn’t elaborate that much on certain things. Now the big deal with some is that Jesus did not look European, but the Bible doesn’t elaborate on that. Jews intermixed with different groups.

Jesus in referencing his mother and brothers was perhaps saying that you should not take your own families importance to be above that of god. He mentions that religion will bring deep divisions into families where each will be turned against one another. Perhaps he did not mean to downplay the remarkable features of his own family or followers. He often spoke allegorically and people did not always understand the exact meaning of that he was saying

Jesus said that a bad tree can not bring forth bad fruit. I have been helping by things that do not seem to fit strictly within a Protestant view. That seems like to me good fruit. I am not saying Protestant ideas are wrong either because much things in the Protestant religion have also helped me

I believe also that after the Protestant reformation then there was a counter reformation so that the Catholic Church changed also.

The Greek Orthodox Church uses images to communicate the lives of Jesus and the disciples. In ancient times many people were illiterate and could not read so these images spoke to them. That church being very old has not changed much for thousands of years. The idol worship mentioned in the Bible was often pagan idols that represented hedonistic or decadent concepts.

Writing about idols, a Jewish mystic pointed out that if idols are forbidden based on the conventional understanding then why are two idols basically of cherubim hidden inside the ark ?

 

[Servus]

I don't disagree, but Roman Catholicism isn't Sola Scriptura of course, tradition for them carries a significant authority, if not equal to scripture.

The problem is when the RC appeals to Scripture anyways and the proof text doesn't really fit the dogma.

 

[Servus]

I was heavily influenced by the Protestant religion and Bible commentaries and I often go to Protestant types of services. I am not really convinced however that Protestantism is the only true religion. Protestants have splintered off into many different groups who disagree about infant baptisms and other things.

I have studied the lives of some catholic saints and some of those I find very remarkable. It seems however that religion always has different contentious beliefs. When I was younger i sometimes would go to church and debate about meditation practices and different religions but nowadays I often don’t mention things like that very often.

The Bible says Jesus had a brother but the Catholic argument is that he was not a brother by birth. That seems like it could be true. This is important to catholics who believe that she never gave birth to other children. The Bible doesn’t elaborate that much on certain things. Now the big deal with some is that Jesus did not look European, but the Bible doesn’t elaborate on that. Jews intermixed with different groups.

Jesus in referencing his mother and brothers was perhaps saying that you should not take your own families importance to be above that of god. He mentions that religion will bring deep divisions into families where each will be turned against one another. Perhaps he did not mean to downplay the remarkable features of his own family or followers. He often spoke allegorically and people did not always understand the exact meaning of that he was saying

Jesus said that a bad tree can not bring forth bad fruit. I have been helping by things that do not seem to fit strictly within a Protestant view. That seems like to me good fruit. I am not saying Protestant ideas are wrong either because much things in the Protestant religion have also helped me

I believe also that after the Protestant reformation then there was a counter reformation so that the Catholic Church changed also.

The way I see it is there's not a one and only true form of Christianity. Probably the closest to it was the Christian church up to the 3rd century. But we know from Paul's epistles and Christ's letters to the seven churchs in Revelation, that even early on there were problems.

 

[christian-surfer]

The way I see it is there's not a one and only true form of Christianity. Probably the closest to it was the Christian church up to the 3rd century. But we know from Paul's epistles and Christ's letters to the seven churchs in Revelation, that even early on there were problems.

Origen and others who followed him where in that period but Augustine and later church fathers believed that Origen was too allegorical in his interpretations and not all of his ideas could be argued to have strictly biblical according to some and much of went on in Alexandria Egypt was much the same.

The eastern churches broke off because the pope changed a couple of words in the creed without consulting eastern bishops and they said a council would need to be called to make a change.

The west was apparently heavily influenced by Greek philosophy and rationalism and still is today. Thomas Aquinas and Maimonides were both influenced by Greek philosophy which some eastern churches didn’t agree with.