Propitiation

[Hammster]

The punishment for sin happened at the cross, the erasing of our sins happened when we were made alive. It seems you want to put both the punishment for sin and the erasing of our sins at the time of the cross.

Thats because scripture does. Cancelling out the debt is forgiveness. “Cancelled” is also translated as “erased” and “wiped out” elsewhere.

I don't think so because the sacrifice for sin is a one time deal, but forgiveness through the sacrifice is bestowed us when we are made alive.

Why did the high priest offer sacrifices in the OT? Or more specifically, at the day of atonement (which is a shadow of the cross), why did the high priest make the sacrifice?

 

[zoidar]

Thats because scripture does. Cancelling out the debt is forgiveness. “Cancelled” is also translated as “erased” and “wiped out” elsewhere.

It does not just say "dept" does it?

Col 2:13 and Col 2:14 might describe two different things or what happens when a person repents, like I said in a previous post.

We are not made alive when Jesus was sacrificed, in that Scripture is clear. Do we agree on that part?

Why did the high priest offer sacrifices in the OT? Or more specifically, at the day of atonement (which is a shadow of the cross), why did the high priest make the sacrifice?

To cover for sins. Jesus takes away sins, that is another thing

 

[fhansen]

No.

No.

Ok, so what's the point of warning if they're already elected? And why, BTW, would anyone ever need to 'make their calling and election sure' (2 Pet 1:10) if they already know with certainty that they're numbered among the elect?

It’s not because our holiness that we see God.

Eternal life is a gift, not a wage.

That holiness is a free gift that makes us slaves to righteousness that results in life instead of slaves to the sin that earns us death (Rom 6). We err when we succeed in divorcing faith or the gospel from the obligation for man to be righteous-that was never the point, just the opposite, in fact: "Your sins are forgiven; go, and sin no more." And He give us the power to do just that. Scripture must be ignored or cherry-picked in order to avoid the verses that warn and instruct us to make effort, to strive, to be vigilant, to invest, to work out our salvation, to overcome sin, with eternal life at stake. We accept the free gift as we embrace and act upon it. It's not either/or, God or me, but both/and, God and me, a union which is meant to be according to God's wise discretion and plan for man. Our job is to turn to Him and let Him do His job.

To the extent that we can reconcile these passages without conflict we better understand the gospel:

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“…a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. Gal 2:16

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.“ Rom 5:1-2

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

“For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.” Rom 6:6

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:16

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20

"...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." Phil 2:12-13

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:8-10

"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” -Luke 9:23

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Matt 5:6,8

Faith is more than a one-time act of belief, or believing that one’s sins are forgiven, or believing in Christ, depending on what that means to the believer, or professing some mantra or another. Faith means union with God, walking in the Spirit, daily, doing His will. And, to the extent that we do that we’ll produce good fruit. If we’re not producing good fruit, we’re not His. This is why we don’t presume forgiveness of sin, as if we could walk in the flesh and still be His. We know that He forgives all who genuinely care and bow humbly before Him, wanting to change. Salvation without change within us and in our actions would make God a rather foolish God.

 

[Hammster]

It does not just say "dept" does it?

Something certainly was cancelled. You said it happened when we were made alive. The passage says it happened at the cross.

Col 2:13 and Col 2:14 might describe two different things or what happens when a person repents, like I said in a previous post.

Except it doesn’t say that. And it makes no sense to say it does. You are going through great lengths to avoid what is clearly there.

We are not made alive when Jesus was sacrificed, in that Scripture is clear. Do we agree on that part?

Yes. And that’s not what the passage says. It says we were made alive because of what happened on the cross. The forgiveness in the past allowed for the regeneration in the future.

To cover for sins. Jesus takes away sins, that is another thing

What Jesus did what to fulfill what the high priests couldn’t do. And while they had to do it over and over, Jesus did it once.

 

[fhansen]

Something certainly was cancelled. You said it happened when we were made alive. The passage says it happened at the cross.

Except it doesn’t say that. And it makes no sense to say it does. You are going through great lengths to avoid what is clearly there.

Yes. And that’s not what the passage says. It says we were made alive because of what happened on the cross. The forgiveness in the past allowed for the regeneration in the future.

What Jesus did what to fulfill what the high priests couldn’t do. And while they had to do it over and over, Jesus did it once.

The cross opened the door to life for all. Whether or not we care enough to walk through is the question.

 

[Hammster]

The cross opened the door to life for all. Whether or not we care enough to walk through is the question.

That’s not biblical. It’s not how the day of atonement worked in the OT. It’s not how it works in the NT.

 

[zoidar]

Something certainly was cancelled. You said it happened when we were made alive. The passage says it happened at the cross.

Yes, something was cancelled, but what?

ESV - The record of debt
KJV - The handwriting of ordinances
NkJV - The handwriting of requirements
NASB - The certificate of debt
DRB - The handwriting of the decree

Except it doesn’t say that. And it makes no sense to say it does. You are going through great lengths to avoid what is clearly there.

The Ante-Nicene Fathers in the Apostolic Constitution seem to put forth the same idea I have, that the "handwriting against them" will be blotted out on repentance.

"... earnestly pray for our brethren in the state of penitence, that God, the lover of compassion, will show them the way of repentance, and accept their return and their confession, and bruise Satan under their feet suddenly, and redeem them from the snare of the devil, and the ill-usage of the demons, and free them from every unlawful word, and every absurd practice and wicked thought; forgive them all their offences, both voluntary and involuntary, and blot out that handwriting which is against them,[Colossians 2:13-14] and write them in the book of life; cleanse them from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, and restore and unite them to His holy flock ..."

Philip Schaff: ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, and Liturgies - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

Yes. And that’s not what the passage says. It says we were made alive because of what happened on the cross. The forgiveness in the past allowed for the regeneration in the future.

Why can't it say "He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses."? and then the second part "He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross".

What Jesus did what to fulfill what the high priests couldn’t do. And while they had to do it over and over, Jesus did it once.

Yes, Jesus was sacrificed once, but we are not forgiven once through the cross. New sins need new forgiveness.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, something was cancelled, but what?

ESV - The record of debt
KJV - The handwriting of ordinances
NkJV - The handwriting of requirements
NASB - The certificate of debt
DRB - The handwriting of the decree

The Ante-Nicene Fathers in the Apostolic Constitution seem to put forth the same idea I have, that the "handwriting against them" will be blotted out on repentance.

"... earnestly pray for our brethren in the state of penitence, that God, the lover of compassion, will show them the way of repentance, and accept their return and their confession, and bruise Satan under their feet suddenly, and redeem them from the snare of the devil, and the ill-usage of the demons, and free them from every unlawful word, and every absurd practice and wicked thought; forgive them all their offences, both voluntary and involuntary, and blot out that handwriting which is against them,[Colossians 2:13-14] and write them in the book of life; cleanse them from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, and restore and unite them to His holy flock ..."

Philip Schaff: ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, and Liturgies - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

While useful for some purpose, in a lot of case they were still working out their theology. One of the main focuses early on was on the doctrine of the Trinity, which was codified at Nicene.

Why can't it say "He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses."? and then the second part "He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross".

I guess it’s because that’s not what Paul thought was the truth.

Yes, Jesus was sacrificed once, but we are not forgiven once through the cross. New sins need new forgiveness.

No they don’t. If they did then Christ would need to be crucified over and over.

And Colossians says otherwise.

 

[o_mlly]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

We believe God is impassive. To speak of God's wrath is to anthropomorphize God, ie., project man's way of thinking to God. Propitiation, it seems to me, is better thought of as necessary to satisfy an all-just God rather than a wrathful God.

Justice requires that the offender, man, whose fall from Original Justice restore the order he disrupted. Through the Incarnation, Passion, and Death of the Son of God, man has been redeemed and restored again in a certain degree to his original condition.

Propitiation is but one end for acts of reparation. Reparation restores the order lost through sin. Adam's sin and the loss of Original Justice has been once and for all adequately satisfied to God by the Sufferings, Passion, and Death of Jesus Christ, made Man for us. By voluntary submission to His Passion and Death on the Cross, He atoned for our disobedience and sin. He thus made propitiation and reparation to the offended majesty of God for Adam's disobedience.

Man continues to offend his Creator by sin disrupting the order of His creation. Ongoing sin requires ongoing reparation. God is both all just and all merciful. In His mercy, He became man to restore the order of His creation. In His mercy, He offers us the grace to maintain the order. In His justice, He requires man to conform to His order of creation by accepting His grace.

 

[Hammster]

We believe God is impassive. To speak of God's wrath is to anthropomorphize God, ie., project man's way of thinking to God. Propitiation, it seems to me, is better thought of as necessary to satisfy an all-just God rather than a wrathful God.

Justice requires that the offender, man, whose fall from Original Justice restore the order he disrupted. Through the Incarnation, Passion, and Death of the Son of God, man has been redeemed and restored again in a certain degree to his original condition.

Propitiation is but one end for acts of reparation. Reparation restores the order lost through sin. Adam's sin and the loss of Original Justice has been once and for all adequately satisfied to God by the Sufferings, Passion, and Death of Jesus Christ, made Man for us. By voluntary submission to His Passion and Death on the Cross, He atoned for our disobedience and sin. He thus made propitiation and reparation to the offended majesty of God for Adam's disobedience.

Man continues to offend his Creator by sin disrupting the order of His creation. Ongoing sin requires ongoing reparation. God is both all just and all merciful. In His mercy, He became man to restore the order of His creation. In His mercy, He offers us the grace to maintain the order. In His justice, He requires man to conform to His order of creation by accepting His grace.

Except that the Bible talks about God’s wrath. It’s not projection.

 

[fhansen]

That’s not biblical. It’s not how the day of atonement worked in the OT. It’s not how it works in the NT.

Sure it is. We're not even forgiven unless we forgive others. There's an acceptance and a reciprocity that's expected from man and that must take place-or else nothing happens. The bible is nothing if not a giant invitation from God- for man to turn, to believe, to act, to choose: good over evil, life over death, God over no God. This invitation stands as real today as it was back in the day:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

The difference is that the new covenant gives us the authentic means to accomplish it.

 

[Hammster]

Sure it is. We're not even forgiven unless we forgive others. There's an acceptance and a reciprocity that's expected from man and that must take place-or else nothing happens. The bible is nothing if not a giant invitation from God- for man to turn, to believe, to act, to choose: good over evil, life over death, God over no God. This invitation stands as real today as it was back in the day:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

The difference is that the new covenant gives us the authentic means to accomplish it.

We are known by our fruit. And the way we produce fruit is by being in Christ. So our fruit is not the cause of anything. It’s not our producing fruit (forgiveness in this case) that makes things happen. It’s the result of being in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

We are known by our fruit. And the way we produce fruit is by being in Christ. So our fruit is not the cause of anything. It’s not our producing fruit (forgiveness in this case) that makes things happen. It’s the result of being in Christ.

The cause is the gift of grace first and our cooperation with it second. Again, it's not either/or but both/and, according to God's wisdom, for our highest good. And the fruit is not guaranteed to anyone- unless they remain in Him

 

[Hammster]

The cause is the gift of grace first and our cooperation with it second. Again, it's not either/or but both/and, according to God's wisdom, for our highest good. And the fruit is not guaranteed to anyone- unless they remain in Him

We don’t produce fruit on our own. Our fruit is fully from Christ.

 

[fhansen]

We don’t produce fruit on our own. Our fruit is fully from Christ.

Yes, and our job is still to do it. And, as we do, He gives us even more grace with more works to do, and we grow in the justice, the righteousness, the love that reflects Himself. His nature, His likeness

 

[Hammster]

Yes, and our job is still to do it. And, as we do, He gives us even more grace with more works to do, and we grow in the justice, the righteousness, the love that reflects Himself. His nature, His likeness

And when we allow sin to hamper our fruit, He prunes us.

 

[fhansen]

And when we allow sin to hamper our fruit, He prunes us.

Yes, unless we refuse pruning, and finally end up a branch cut back off altogether.

 

[o_mlly]

Except that the Bible talks about God’s wrath.

The bible also talks more extensively about God's love and mercy.

What Does the Bible Say About Gods Love And Mercy?

Bible verses about Gods Love And Mercy

www.openbible.info

 

[Hammster]

Yes, unless we refuse pruning, and finally end up a branch cut back off altogether.

There’s no refusing the pruning. That isn’t the picture shown in scripture.

 

[Hammster]

The bible also talks more extensively about God's love and mercy.

What Does the Bible Say About Gods Love And Mercy?

Bible verses about Gods Love And Mercy

www.openbible.info

So?