Where was the Sabbath Abolished?

[Soyeong]

This is not correct, for the reason that everyone who is a student of the Bible, knows that there is no one meaning to Hebrew and Greek words.
You know this, don't you?
Context is what usually determines the correct usage of these words. Otherwise the correct understanding is lost.

We see that, for example, in the case nephesh, and we see how people totally muddle the texts that use this word, due to their insistence on believing doctrines.

So, rather than focus on the word itself, let us consider the context.

Romans 7:1 Interlinear: Are ye ignorant, brethren -- for to those knowing law I speak -- that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth?

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Romans 7:2 Interlinear: for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;

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Romans 7:3 Interlinear: so, then, the husband being alive, an adulteress she shall be called if she may become another man's; and if the husband may die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, having become another man's.

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Romans 7:4 Interlinear: So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;

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Romans 7:5 Interlinear: for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that are through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death;

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Romans 7:6 Interlinear: and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.

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Romans 7:7 Interlinear: What, then, shall we say? the law is sin? let it not be! but the sin I did not know except through law, for also the covetousness I had not known if the law had not said:

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That's not too hard for us. Simple illustration, isn't it?
However, due to the fact that some of us like to hold on to our ideas with a die hard attitude, we need some clarity.
So let's have a real heart to heart, reasonable, non-evasive discussion.

I was going to explain the illustration, just in case, but I chose to conclude that you are an intelligent man. So, I hope that is okay with you.

First.

• What Law, is Paul referring to in verse 4?

In the event that we are tempted to give an answer, simply based on what we think, Paul helps us, in Romans 7:7.
However, this is a discussion, so I am listening to your response to the question.

Next.
We use the context, and link the illustration

Romans 7:2 Interlinear: for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;

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to verse 4, and verse 6.

Romans 7:4 Interlinear: So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;

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Romans 7:6 Interlinear: and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.

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The woman is bound - Greek deó (to tie, bind) to her husband, by law, as long as he is alive.
Now here is a really interesting part. This I love .
If her husband dies, the woman is katargeó _______________.
It's a discussion, and I give you the honors HIM. Please fill in the English word. I'm listening to you.
So, we don't decide on just any word, the word usages are here.

Once we have that, we want to connect it to the verses afore mentioned - verses 4, and 6.
Now we have the correct usage of the word.
What did you get from the context?

The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good, so it is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us while the law of sin leads us to sin, so it is a law where sin had dominion over us, so Paul is contrasting opposite directions. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, so he was speaking about the law of sin, not the Law of God. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so where are still under the Law of God, but not the law of sin. In Romans 6:16, we are slaves to the one that we obey either of sin, which leads to death or obedience, which leads to righteousness, so again it is contrasting obeying the law of sin with obeying the Law of God. In Romana 6:17-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God. So obedience to God's law is the content of God's gift of eternal life and Romans 7 should not be interpreted as saying that we need to die to God's gift of eternal life.

In Romans 7:1-4, there is no point that the woman was set free from needing to obey any of God's laws and if she were to get married to another man after the death of her first husband, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in verse 4 that in the same way we have been set free from the Law of God. Rather, we have been set free from the law of sin through the body of Christ that we might belong to the one who was raised from the death in order to bear fruit for God. God's word is His instructions for how to be unified with God's word made flesh, so it would be absurd to think that we need to die to God's word in order to be unified with him, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from obeying God's word, namely the law of sin. Likewise, Law of God is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, so it would be absurd to think that we need to die to the Law of God in order to bear fruit for him, but rather we need to die to a law that is hindering us from bearing fruit for God, which is the law of sin.

In regard to Romans 7:5, there is nothing intrinsic to the Law of God that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin while the Law of God leads us to repent from our sins, which causes sin to decrease, and the Bible repeatedly states that the Law of God leads to life while it is sin that leads to death (Deuteronomy 30:11-16, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14). Paul spoke about the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted it with the law of sin that held him captive and it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5-6 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. In Romans 7:7, Paul spoke about the Law of God not being sinful but how we know what sin is in contrast with the law of sin in Romans 7:5.

____________________________________________

We can run this, in my view, very fun exercise, on any scripture. Context matters.
Here is another scripture. Ephesians 2:15

Ephesians 2:15 Interlinear: the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

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Here, the same Greek word katargeó is used.

1. First. What Law is being refered to.
2. Next. Use the context.
3. Finally. Establish the correct word usage.

There are yet, other scriptures - Colossians 2:14, where we have an even stronger word - exaleiphó: to wipe out, erase, obliterate, but we can consider each at a reasonable pace, using our simple three step method.

All of the times that the Bible uses the Greek word "dogma" outside of Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 refer to something other than than the Law of God, so justification needs to be given for why it should be interpreted as referring to the Law of God in those verses, especially in light of the fact that all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), the fact that Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish God's law (Matthew 5:17-19), and the fact that Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). God did not make any mistakes when He gave His law, so He had no need to abolish His own law, and God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs to love our neighbor as ourselves.

In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ to do good works, so it would be absurd to interpret Ephesians 2:15 as Jesus abolishing his instructions for how to do good works. In Ephesians 2:11-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world, which is all in accordance with Gentiles not being followers of the Law of God, but through faith in Christ all of those things are no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are now fellow citizens of Israel alone with the saints in the household of God, which is all in accordance with Gentiles becoming obedient to the Law of God by believing the Gospel of the Kingdom and the promise.

In regard to Colossians 2:14, the purpose of the brutality of crucifixion was to act as a deterrent, so then Romans did not nail laws to someone's cross, but rather they nailed a handwritten ordinance to their cross that listed the charges that were against them. This is in accordance with Matthew 27:37, where they nailed a handwritten ordinance to Christ's cross that announced that the charge that was against him that he was the King of the Jews. This fits perfectly with the concept of the list of the charges against us (the sins that we have committed) being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but had nothing to do with wiping out God's law so that we can be free to do what it reveals to be sin. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from would be the way to reject what he accomplished.

 

[CoreyD]

Who is "they" and who gives "they" more authority than God?

You seem to have lost track of the discussion, but that's okay. Distractions can happen.

SabbathBlessings said:
And yet not one scripture you provided says we can break the Sabbath commandment.
CoreyD said:
They all say that we were not commanded to keep the Sabbath, so breaking the sabbath is what we call n/a - Not applicable.

They, are the scriptures I provided.
They all say that we were not commanded to keep the Sabbath, so breaking the sabbath is what we call n/a - Not applicable.
In other words, there is no scripture in the Bible that says God authorized that we keep a Weekly Sabbath. So, the claim that we are breaking the Sabbath, is not applicable. One cannot break a Law, or covenant that was not given to them, or does not apply to them.

Only when I came to Christ and placed my faith in Jesus who told us to live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Mat 4:4

And God personally spoke and wrote these Words

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

This is who I yield myself a servant to obey- can your authority who told you the Sabbath was n/a do this?

It is certainly commendable that you want to " live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
Does that mean that you also take a male sheep, one year old, care for it until the 14th day of the Month of Nisan, then kill it at sundown, and smear its blood on the uprights of your door frame? Exodus 12:1-7
If not, why not?
Why aren't you building an ark, the size that God said? Is that not the word from the mouth of God?

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Lord blessed Abraham, and made a promise which he will keep.
So, what are you saying? Because God did something there are commands?

God wrote and spoke His Ten Commandments and calls them "My commandments"

Exodus 20: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God called the Ten Commandments "My covenant "

Exo 34: 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

God said:
Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Heaven and earth are still here and Jesus has not come in the Clouds.

This is who I yield myself a servant to obey- who is your authority?

What did God call all his requirements? Not, his commandments?
Genesis 26:5

because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Spoiler: There are lots more

Exodus 6:13

The LORD commanded Moses and Aaron to lead the people of Israel out of Egypt.

Exodus 15:26

saying, “If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

Exodus 16:28

Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep My commandments and instructions?

Leviticus 22:31

You are to keep My commandments and practice them. I am the LORD.

Numbers 15:40

Then you will remember and obey all My commandments, and you will be holy to your God.

1 Kings 3:14

So if you walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”

1 Kings 11:34

However I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, because I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of My servant David, whom I chose because he kept My commandments and My statutes.

1 Kings 11:38

Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you.

Why don't you keep any of these commandments? Are they not the lord's commandments?
...and the covenant... That was all the words that Moses wrote down. Why don't you keep that?
Exodus 24:3-8; Exodus 34:27, 28; Deuteronomy 31:9, 11

Please take your own advice. I asked a simple question- where did God abrogate His Sabbath commandment. He blessed the Sabbath and only God can reverse Num 23:20 Where is the scripture where God broke His promise?

Where did God give the Sabbath commandment?
Deuteronomy 5:1-3, 15
Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances that I declare in your hearing this day. Learn them and observe them carefully.
The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
He did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with all of us who are alive here today.
Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the LORD your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

You yourself said the ten commandments is the covenant, when actually, the scriptures say, it is all the law - including those that God commanded Moses to write down.
Are you saying that Moses was lying, or do you agree with his words above?
Did God make this covenant before bringing Israel out of the land of Egypt, and giving them His commandments?

God's rested on the seventh day from all his creative work. that rest has not ended, so that Sabbath is still ongoing, and persons who accept the sacrifice of christ, and grace, will enter into that sabbath rest, because god always keeps his promises.
Genesis 2:3; Psalm 95:10, 11; Hebrews 3:7-4:16

God did not give a sabbath command at the time he blessed the Sabbath day.
If you disagree, you are calling Moses a liar, and hence, God, and you need to show otherwise. You can't. No one can.

Yes, God's people are the Nation of Israel and still is today-Israel is just a name God gave His people-it was both literal and metaphorically. It's not about nationality, its about faith. Gal 3:26-28

You referenced Galatians 3:26-28, but I don't see anything in those verses saying, "God's people are the Nation of Israel and still is today".

According to Jesus, the Nation of Israel broke the covenant, rejected the Messiah, and were cast off - rejected as a Nation, and their temple destroyed.

According to Paul, "it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring."

Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 19:41, 42; Romans 9:6-8;

Why God wrote His New Covenant with Israel that still has God's law, but its based on Him doing- writing His law in our hearts and minds instead of people doing, which is why it is established on better promises. Heb 8:6 not better laws because God keeps His promises Psa 89:34 and His law is perfect. Psa 19:7 just as He is.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

This is a beautiful promise I would not want to write myself out of God's covenant promise

I understand you do not understand what you basically just said.

This is what you actually said here:

There is a mediator of a new covenant, and the the old covenant, which you called the ten commandment, has been "mended" into the new covenant.​

This is what the Bible says:

For indeed, there is a putting away of the preceding commandment, because of its weakness and uselessness, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18, 19​

No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God. Romans 2:29​

Romans 7:6; Romans 8:3; Hebrews 8:6-13​

God's people keep God's commandments

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

What faith did Jesus have? Did He profane the Sabbath and tell us not to keep. NO! Jesus kept every Sabbath Luke 4:16 John 15:10 and instructed us not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments. Mat 5:19-30 because Jesus said when one keeps their rules/traditions over obeying the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten ones hearts is far from Him, the opposite of the New Covenant.

This is who I yield myself a servant to obey.

Do you also celebrate the Passover?
Jesus did. As a Jew, Jesus obeyed the commandments given to the Jews.
If you are a Jew, and you are one that rejects grace, then I understand. Galatians 5:2-4

The old testament is in Hebrews and the Word here means ALL

kol: the whole, all
Original Word: כֹּל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kol
Phonetic Spelling: (kole)
Definition: the whole, all

Isaiah 56:6 Interlinear: And sons of the stranger, who are joined to Jehovah, To serve Him, and to love the name of Jehovah, To be to Him for servants, Every keeper of the sabbath from polluting it, And those keeping hold on My covenant.

And the sons of the foreigner... All who keep...
Yes. All the foreigners and their sons who are dwelling in Israel.
Not you.

Where does what Christ deems righteousness ever change. Please give me a thus saith the Lord.

56 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone (ALL) who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant (because God does not alter the words of His covenant) Psa 89:34
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, (heaven)
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”


Did the Sabbath stop in the NC for God's faithful? Did they stop doing righteousness and stop holding fast God's covenant. NO!

Luke 23:56 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

They had better not stop doing righteousness.
Jesus even told the rich man he had better keep the whole law.
Do you? Then you are in trouble... if you do, or if you don't. Galatians 5:2-4

 

[CoreyD]

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.

Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

Acts 13:42
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
Acts 15:21

For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

The apostles certainly knew where and when to find people to share the gospel.
What a fine example.

You claim the Sabbath is not applicable. Does God's Sabbath end in heaven?

Do you really think those who don't want to keep the Sabbath now, will suddenly want to in heaven?

God's will for His people is the same in heaven as it is on this earth. Matthew 6:10 Those who don't want to keep the Sabbath now, I don't think would be happy in heaven, where God's Sabbath continues for eternity. God's loves us to much He would never force anyone to do something, it's all about choices.

You think there is a Weekly Sabbath keeping in heaven?
I am not even going to ask you where you got such an idea.

Isa 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Its all about who we yield ourselves authority to....

You think this is in heaven?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Two choices, two paths...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

15 But outside are dogs (sinners) and sorcerers (breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment # 7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exo 20:4) , and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Breaking any of the commandments. 1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.)

Psa 119:151You are near, O Lord,
And all Your commandments are truth.

We are only saved by the blood of Christ through faith. Christ tells us how to live by His standard of righteousness Psa 119:172 Psa 119:142 and gives us the power to do so through our love to Him. John 14:15-18

So I hope you consider in prayer.

You have a lot to say.
I'm primarily concerned with what you have to say on Deuteronomy 5.
You are not avoiding it, are you?

 

[CoreyD]

The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good, so it is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us while the law of sin leads us to sin, so it is a law where sin had dominion over us, so Paul is contrasting opposite directions. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, so he was speaking about the law of sin, not the Law of God. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so where are still under the Law of God, but not the law of sin. In Romans 6:16, we are slaves to the one that we obey either of sin, which leads to death or obedience, which leads to righteousness, so again it is contrasting obeying the law of sin with obeying the Law of God. In Romana 6:17-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God. So obedience to God's law is the content of God's gift of eternal life and Romans 7 should not be interpreted as saying that we need to die to God's gift of eternal life.

In Romans 7:1-4, there is no point that the woman was set free from needing to obey any of God's laws and if she were to get married to another man after the death of her first husband, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in verse 4 that in the same way we have been set free from the Law of God. Rather, we have been set free from the law of sin through the body of Christ that we might belong to the one who was raised from the death in order to bear fruit for God. God's word is His instructions for how to be unified with God's word made flesh, so it would be absurd to think that we need to die to God's word in order to be unified with him, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from obeying God's word, namely the law of sin. Likewise, Law of God is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, so it would be absurd to think that we need to die to the Law of God in order to bear fruit for him, but rather we need to die to a law that is hindering us from bearing fruit for God, which is the law of sin.

In regard to Romans 7:5, there is nothing intrinsic to the Law of God that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin while the Law of God leads us to repent from our sins, which causes sin to decrease, and the Bible repeatedly states that the Law of God leads to life while it is sin that leads to death (Deuteronomy 30:11-16, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14). Paul spoke about the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted it with the law of sin that held him captive and it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5-6 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. In Romans 7:7, Paul spoke about the Law of God not being sinful but how we know what sin is in contrast with the law of sin in Romans 7:5.

Why did Paul ask if the Law is sin?

It seems you did not understand the illustration Paul used...

there is no point that the woman was set free from needing to obey any of God's laws and if she were to get married to another man after the death of her first husband, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in verse 4

That would explain why there is no connection to the verses.
If you believe you do understand the illustration, can you please explain it, and explain how it is connected to the verses that follow.
Thanks.

All of the times that the Bible uses the Greek word "dogma" outside of Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 refer to something other than than the Law of God, so justification needs to be given for why it should be interpreted as referring to the Law of God in those verses, especially in light of the fact that all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), the fact that Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish God's law (Matthew 5:17-19), and the fact that Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). God did not make any mistakes when He gave His law, so He had no need to abolish His own law, and God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs to love our neighbor as ourselves.

When the burse puts a bandage on your wound, and then takes it off, do you say that means she made a mistake?
We do not reason like that, do we?

Galatians 3:19, 24, 25
19 Why then the Law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the seed to whom promise has been made should have come, having been ordained through angels in the hand of a mediator.
24 So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Because God applied the Law, until the means by which the reality could be applied, you will reason that to remove the law would mean that God made a mistake?

You know the Bible warns us that the Devil blinds our minds, and that god let's a delusion come upon persons, so that they believe the lie. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12
I think if I found myself reasoning in a way that seem a bit below my intelligence level, i would ask myself, am I thinking from my own mid, or might it be, there is some interference here?
What do you think? Does that sound like a wise course of action?

I'll get back to you later.
Good night.

 

[Soyeong]

Why did Paul ask if the Law is sin?

In order to contrast the law of sin with the Law of God.

It seems you did not understand the illustration Paul used...

That would explain why there is no connection to the verses.
If you believe you do understand the illustration, can you please explain it, and explain how it is connected to the verses that follow.
Thanks.

The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, such as with God describing Himself as a husband to her (Jeremiah 31:32) and with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a writ of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8). However, God continued to call for Israel to return to Him throughout the rest of the chapter, which brings a problem for those who know the law, which is whom Paul was addressing in Romans 7:1. Namely, in Deuteronomy 24:1-4, it forbids a woman from returning to her first husband after she has been divorced and been with another man. The only way that Israel could be freed from her adultery would be through the death of her husband so it was a mystery how God would accomplish this. So we have died to the law of sin through the body of Christ in order to be free to belong to another, to him who was raised from dead in order to bear fruit for God.

When the burse puts a bandage on your wound, and then takes it off, do you say that means she made a mistake?
We do not reason like that, do we?

Indeed, there is nothing in the Bible that uses that type of reasoning in regard to God's law.

Galatians 3:19, 24, 25
19 Why then the Law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the seed to whom promise has been made should have come, having been ordained through angels in the hand of a mediator.
24 So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Because God applied the Law, until the means by which the reality could be applied, you will reason that to remove the law would mean that God made a mistake?

If God were to say that it is unrighteous to commit murder and then changes the law so that it is righteous to commit murder, then that would mean that God made a mistake by saying that was unrighteous to commit murder or by changing it.

In Acts 3:25-26, it does not say that Jesus came in fulfillment of the promise to curse us by freeing us to do what God's law reveals to be wickedness, but rather it says that he came in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law leads us to Christ because it is God's instructions for how to know him, but does not lead us to Christ so that we can then be free to do what it reveals to be wickedness.

In Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, in Christ, through faith, and children of Abraham and heirs to the promise is directly connected with being a doer of God's law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him.

You know the Bible warns us that the Devil blinds our minds, and that god let's a delusion come upon persons, so that they believe the lie. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12
I think if I found myself reasoning in a way that seem a bit below my intelligence level, i would ask myself, am I thinking from my own mid, or might it be, there is some interference here?
What do you think? Does that sound like a wise course of action?

The Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142) and Jesus is the embodiment of truth expressed by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah (John 14:6). In Proverbs 4:2, it states that sound doctrine is to not forsake the Torah. It is unwise to interpret God's word as speaking against obeying God's word.

I'll get back to you later.
Good night.

Goodnight.

 

[Leaf473]

Do you also celebrate the Passover?
Jesus did.

Jesus celebrated Passover and the feast of Tabernacles.

Bible Gateway passage: John 7:10 - New American Standard Bible

But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as though in secret.

www.biblegateway.com

and possibly Hanukkah

Bible Gateway passage: John 10:22-23 - New American Standard Bible

Jesus Asserts His Deity - At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple area, in the portico of Solomon.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[CoreyD]

Ever wonder why?:

I know why. It's obvious, from what evidence is observed.

Because you assumed he was being dishonest.

Where did I do that? I made no such assumption, and never ever do I do that.

That mistaken assumption is not the reason, though.
If it were, @HIM would not respond to a later post three times.
Imagine. One refuses to respond to a post to them, where discussion is invited, but then responds to a post to someone else, three times.

People usually avoid responding to posts, when they want to avoid answering direct questions.
Note that I did not accuse anyone on these forums of anything. Each person will know "if the cap fits".

You're so prejudiced you think anyone who disagrees with how you read scripture has to be lying.

You are accusing me of being prejudiced?
What should I do now... refuse to discuss anything with you?
I am not that fickle. People can say what they like. I look at the facts. If the facts do not agree with the claim, they are meaningless.
I understand why people make personal attacks on a poster.

Prejudice means "holding unreasonable preconceived judgments; an adverse judgment or opinion formed unfairly or without knowledge of the facts; Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular social group, such as a race or the adherents of a religion."

I did not accuse anyone on these forums of being dishonest, so I certainly am not holding unreasonable preconceived judgments .
However, your accusing me of being prejudiced, is not only an adverse judgment or opinion formed unfairly or without knowledge of the facts, but it's an unreasonable preconceived judgment, and seems driven by hate.

Did I offend you because I am using the scriptures to prove something?
Paul did this. In Acts 17:3, it says Paul was "explaining and pointing out [scriptural evidence] that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and rise from the dead"

This shows that one can use the scriptures to prove what is correct and what is not.
It is not a case of "how you read scriptures" against how another person reads the scriptures.
That would be to say the scriptures are dead, and useless.
The Bible is a living book Hebrews 4:12, which is inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16, and one is able to use it as a powerful weapon by God, to destroy strongholds - false arguments. 2 Corinthians 10:4

Of course, those who are struck blows will not like it, and will be hurt and angry... even hateful, but they would have to take that up with God, and ask him why the Bible does not agree with them.
The Bible is so alive and corrective, that persons can use it to check to make sure that what people say lines up with it. Acts 17:11
It's like a measuring line.

In a debate, if one cannot use the scriptures to prove anything, they usually resort to attacking the person.
The Bible says our weapons should not be of the flesh, but powerful by God.
We use the sword of the spirit - God's word Ephesians 6:17. Not the tongue James 3:5-8.
James described the tongue as "an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

I have not used my tongue against you, or anyone here. I use the sword - God's word.
If it hurts, then it is the course of wisdom to abandon any arguments against it, because it is a weapon that has God's power.

I know you did not like my last post to you, but please consider the fact that this was the sword you were up against. Not me. I have to use it. It's God's work.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The apostles certainly knew where and when to find people to share the gospel.
What a fine example.








You think there is a Weekly Sabbath keeping in heaven?
I am not even going to ask you where you got such an idea.


You think this is in heaven?


You have a lot to say.
I'm primarily concerned with what you have to say on Deuteronomy 5.
You are not avoiding it, are you?

I think we are so worlds apart on how we interpret scripture not sure it makes sense to continue. I am not bowing out not because you made valid points, it just doesn't address the scriptures you are responding to and there are so many scriptures ripped from their context like indicating the Ten Commandments that God personally spoke and God personally wrote, His works Exo 32:16 that reflects His holy character could ever be "weak" and if one were to actually read the context of this passage would see clearly it is not about the Ten Commandments but the Levitical Priesthood which is what Hebrews 7 is all about- the law of the priesthood changing so Jesus could be our High Priest because the law said the priest needed to come from the tribe of Levi and Jesus came from the tribe of Judah so obviously the law of the priesthood was changed, the context of Hebrews 7. A human being as our high priest and all the fleshy ordinances of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin (breaking God's law Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30) was weak, because the blood of animals made nothing perfect, but the blood of Christ is Perfect for cleansing us of all sin and unrighteousness and when He heals, He says go and sin NO MORE. If that were not possible to do, He would not command it. Jesus even gives us His Spirit to help us obey His commandments and not sin John 14:15-18 but sadly, many like to stay in darkness John 3:19-21 instead of coming to the Truth of His Word and ALL of His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151

But I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word. If we allow the context to interpret Itself, which It does, we will start to see a clear picture emerge of God's will and how He wants His children to live. When we take a scripture here and take a scripture there and never really study and prayerfully read the context, all that is going to do is lead one on the wrong path.

Take care.

 

[Gary K]

I know why. It's obvious, from what evidence is observed.


Where did I do that? I made no such assumption, and never ever do I do that.

That mistaken assumption is not the reason, though.
If it were, @HIM would not respond to a later post three times.
Imagine. One refuses to respond to a post to them, where discussion is invited, but then responds to a post to someone else, three times.

People usually avoid responding to posts, when they want to avoid answering direct questions.
Note that I did not accuse anyone on these forums of anything. Each person will know "if the cap fits".


You are accusing me of being prejudiced?
What should I do now... refuse to discuss anything with you?
I am not that fickle. People can say what they like. I look at the facts. If the facts do not agree with the claim, they are meaningless.
I understand why people make personal attacks on a poster.

Prejudice means "holding unreasonable preconceived judgments; an adverse judgment or opinion formed unfairly or without knowledge of the facts; Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular social group, such as a race or the adherents of a religion."

I did not accuse anyone on these forums of being dishonest, so I certainly am not holding unreasonable preconceived judgments .
However, your accusing me of being prejudiced, is not only an adverse judgment or opinion formed unfairly or without knowledge of the facts, but it's an unreasonable preconceived judgment, and seems driven by hate.

Did I offend you because I am using the scriptures to prove something?
Paul did this. In Acts 17:3, it says Paul was "explaining and pointing out [scriptural evidence] that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and rise from the dead"

This shows that one can use the scriptures to prove what is correct and what is not.
It is not a case of "how you read scriptures" against how another person reads the scriptures.
That would be to say the scriptures are dead, and useless.
The Bible is a living book Hebrews 4:12, which is inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16, and one is able to use it as a powerful weapon by God, to destroy strongholds - false arguments. 2 Corinthians 10:4

Of course, those who are struck blows will not like it, and will be hurt and angry... even hateful, but they would have to take that up with God, and ask him why the Bible does not agree with them.
The Bible is so alive and corrective, that persons can use it to check to make sure that what people lines up with it. Acts 17:11
It's like a measuring line.

In a debate, if one cannot use the scriptures to prove anything, they usually resort to attacking the person.
The Bible says our weapons should not be of the flesh, but powerful by God.
We use the sword of the spirit - God's word Ephesians 6:17. Not the tongue James 3:5-8.
James described the tongue as "an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

I have not used my tongue against you, or anyone here. I use the sword - God's word.
If it hurts, then it is the course of wisdom to abandon any arguments against it, because it is a weapon that has God's power.

I know you did not like my last post to you, but please consider the fact that this was the sword you were up against. Not me. I have to use it. It's God's work.

Your opinion of what scripture means is not scripture. You constantly misapply it.

 

[CoreyD]

In order to contrast the law of sin with the Law of God.

You said that Paul did that earlier. Didn't you?
So, when Paul then says, "What then shall we say? Is the law sin?", he is not now contrasting the law of sin with the Law of God.

This is not a comparison, or contrasting of anything, is it.
Paul made a point, and then he asks a question concerning the point he made.
What was the point Paul made?
Romans 7:6
But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Therefore he asks the question...
What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” Romans 7:7

So, if we are following Paul's reasoning, we see he first uses an illustration, that will get his listeners to understand the point, he will make.
I will give focus to the main point, so we don't get distracted from that by minor details.

The illustration... Romans 7:1-3
Do you not know, brothers (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law and is not an adulteress, even if she marries another man.

The application of the illustration.... Romans 7:4-6
Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.
For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law*** were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. *** Galatians 3:19; Romans 3:20; Romans 4:15
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul is referring to the same Law in verse 4, 6, 7, and the illustration makes the point those who now belong to another, are released from that Law, and are not bound by it.
This is a reasonable, ordered line of reasoning used by the apostle to drive home an important point regarding the Law, which includes the command, "thou shall not covet", that this law is not binding on them.
They can thus serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Thank you for your effort.
May you have peace.

 

[HIM]

People usually avoid responding to posts, when they want to avoid answering direct questions.
Note that I did not accuse anyone on these forums of anything. Each person will know "if the cap fits".

You have three posts directed to you. One outright shows you your mistake. You have yet o respond to any of it. In regards to the topic that I had with leaf. The evidence was presented to him and you,why go on? For the sake of argument? No thanks. Here are the other posts to which you haven’t addressed. If you have you have not addresssed the points. Take care

Well first let us say Isaiah was written in Hebrew. And second you are mistaken the word every is in the text. Here is the text. The bold emphasis is mine.
Isa 56:6 וּבְנֵ֣י Also the sons
הַנֵּכָ֗ר of the stranger
הַנִּלְוִ֤ים that join
עַל־ and
יְהוָה֙ themselves to the LORD
לְשָׁ֣רְת֔וֹ to serve
וּֽלְאַהֲבָה֙ him and to love
אֶת־ שֵׁ֣ם the name
יְהוָ֔ה of the LORD
לִהְי֥וֹת become
ל֖וֹ לַעֲבָדִ֑ים to be his servants
כָּל־ every
שֹׁמֵ֤ר that keepeth
שַׁבָּת֙ the sabbath
מֵֽחַלְּל֔וֹ from polluting
וּמַחֲזִיקִ֖ים it and taketh hold
בִּבְרִיתִֽי׃ of my covenant

Since you brought up the Greek let's take a look at the LXX which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture compiled before Christ. As we look we see that πάντας is used which means all. And it is is used to translate כָּל־ which means every . What is nice about this forum is when we find we have made a mistake we can go back and edit it by deleting the mistake or making a note in the post so we do not lead others down the wrong path that we were in. But hey that is up to you.

Isa 56:6 και And
τοις to the
αλλογενέσι foreigners
τοις προσκειμένοις joining
κυρίω to the LORD,
δουλεύειν to serve
αυτώ him,
και and
αγαπάν to love
το the
όνομα name
κυρίου of the LORD,
του είναι to be
αυτώ to him
εις for
δούλους manservants
και and
δούλας maidservants,
και and
πάντας all
τους the
φυλασσομένους ones keeping
τα σάββατά
μου my Sabbaths,
μη to not
βεβηλούν profane,
και and
αντεχομένους the ones holding to
της διαθήκης μου my covenant.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The day of atonement was fulfilled in Christ. This is covered in Hebrews 7-9 through the change of the priesthood to Christ.
This was addressed in part in another post. Here it is again.

First Romans 8 does not say that the Law was weak. It says it was weak IN the flesh or weakened by the flesh as the translation you chose brings forth. I hope you see the difference.

Second Heb 8:18 says commandment and Rom 8:3 says law. They are not the same though commandments are of the Law, the Law being the Torah. The first 5 books of the Bible. Heb 7:18 is being specific in respect to a commandment or commandments not the Law in it's entirety.

Let's take a look shall we.

We see below in verses 11 and 12 that the priesthood was changed to that which was after the order of Melchizedek. Since there was a change of the priesthood there also must be a change in the law. Since the Law mandated that the priesthood was to be that of the house of Aaron the Levite. The Levite priesthood was not profitable. The people received the Law through them and that did not work out because of their hardhearts and stiff necks. So through the Priesthood of Christ we now receive the Law from God directly to the heart and mind. In that respect the commandment pertaining to the Levites dispensation of the Law made nothing perfect as verse 18 states. And also the commandments pertaining to the Temple service changed because the priesthood changed. These commandments with the priesthood of Levites were disannulled. Because they were weak and not profitable either. They were but a shadow of Christ's ministry. For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sanctified to the purifying of the flesh. How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (who we are, the man of sin) from dead works (sin, acts that cause death) to serve the living God. For those sacrifices in which they offered could never take away sin. But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Perfecting forever them whom are sanctified. Whereof, (this being perfected) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. (Heb 9:13,14,26; 10:4,14-16)

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

[CoreyD]

I think we are so worlds apart on how we interpret scripture not sure it makes sense to continue. I am not bowing out not because you made valid points, it just doesn't address the scriptures you are responding to and there are so many scriptures ripped from their context like indicating the Ten Commandments that God personally spoke and God personally wrote, His works Exo 32:16 that reflects His holy character could ever be "weak" and if one were to actually read the context of this passage would see clearly it is not about the Ten Commandments but the Levitical Priesthood which is what Hebrews 7 is all about- the law of the priesthood changing so Jesus could be our High Priest because the law said the priest needed to come from the tribe of Levi and Jesus came from the tribe of Judah so obviously the law of the priesthood was changed, the context of Hebrews 7. A human being our high priest and all the fleshy ordinances of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin (breaking God's law Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30) was weak, because the blood of animals made nothing perfect, but the blood of Christ is Perfect for cleansing us of all sin and unrighteousness and when He heals He says go and sin NO MORE. If that were not possible to do, He would not command it. Jesus even gives us His Spirit to help us obey His commandments and not sin John 14:15-18 but sadly, many like to stay in darkness John 3:19-21 instead of coming to the Truth of His Word and ALL of His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151

But I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word. If we allow the context to interpret Itself, which It does, we will start to see a clear picture emerge of God's will and how He wants His children to live. When we take a scripture here and take a scripture there and never really study and prayerfully read the context, all that is going to do is lead one on the wrong path.

Take care.

In other words, you do not want to address the scriptures, because Deuteronomy 5 damages your argument, and you would rather make your own interpretations, than let that direct you?

I do not interpret the scriptures. I am sorry that you do. See Interpretation vs Explanations.
I also said before, i am not seeking the truth. I have found it.

Again.... and I hope this is the last time... may you go in peace.

 

[CoreyD]

You have three posts directed to you. One outright shows you your mistake. You have yet o respond to any of it. In regards to the topic that I had with leaf. The evidence was presented to him and you,why go on? For the sake of argument? No thanks. Here are the other posts to which you haven’t addressed. If you have you have not addresssed the points. Take care

I have not addressed your posts after you dismissed my invitation to have a reasonable discussion and ignored my post.
When someone does not want to listen to and respond to me, I determine that they want to preach to me, and not consider or address anything I say.
No thanks.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In other words, you do not want to address the scriptures, because Deuteronomy 5 damages your argument, and you would rather make your own interpretations, than let that direct you?

I do not interpret the scriptures. I am sorry that you do. See Interpretation vs Explanations.
I also said before, i am not seeking the truth. I have found it.

Again.... and I hope this is the last time... may you go in peace.

Do you even know what Deut 5 is about? I don't think so.....I am happy to look deeper in it, like Hebrews 7, but would you even care about the context? You haven't really shown any interest in context thus far, you keep brushing it off like it doesn't matter like you did with Mat 7:23 and so many other verses. You said you are not seeking for the truth, I agree with that, you claim you already found it, so why would anyone want to bother discussing with you that when shown errors in your truth, you don't acknowledge or even try to make adjustments. It's not our truth that matters only God's Truth that does. God's Word says ALL of His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151- that's where I place my faith in His Truth.

 

[CoreyD]

Do you even know what Deut 5 is about? I don't think so.....I am happy to look deeper in it, like Hebrews 7, but would you even care about the context? You haven't really shown any interest in context thus far, you keep brushing it off like it doesn't matter like you did with Mat 7:23 and so many other verses. You said you are not seeking for the truth, I agree with that, you claim you already found it, so why would anyone want to bother discussing with you that when shown errors in your truth, you don't acknowledge or even try to make adjustments. It's not our truth that matters only God's Truth that does. God's Word says ALL of His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151- that's where I place my faith in His Truth.

I have been using the context, and encouraging the use of context all the time, so please... I know you want to have the last word, but I am not going to allow the untruths about me to go unanswered.
If you want the last word, just leave out the untruths, and I will allow that.

Note too that your whole post screams that you know the truth, and want to be a teacher to others, so are you making this application to self?

why would anyone want to bother discussing with you that when shown errors in your truth, you don't acknowledge or even try to make adjustments.

May you go in peace ???

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have been using the context, and encouraging the use of context all the time, so please... I know you want to have the last word, but I am not going to allow the untruths about me to go unanswered.
If you want the last word, just leave out the untruths, and I will allow that.

May you go in peace ???

So can you honestly answer that the law in Hebrews 7 is about the Ten Commandments or about the Priesthood changing so Jesus could be our High Priest which is what it clearly states.

 

[CoreyD]

So can you honestly answer that the law in Hebrews 7 is about the Ten Commandments or about the Priesthood changing so Jesus could be our High Priest which is what it clearly states.

When you answer my question which I asked from the very beginning, I will answer yours.
This is fair.

Skipping a pertinent question and ignoring something- point A, that does not get you to point B, and then asking a question on point B, is not only evasive, but it's not fair.

Point A begins with this:
Where did God give the Sabbath commandment?
Deuteronomy 5:1-3, 15
Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances that I declare in your hearing this day. Learn them and observe them carefully.
The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
He did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with all of us who are alive here today.
Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the LORD your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

You yourself said the ten commandments is the covenant, when actually, the scriptures say, it is all the law - including those that God commanded Moses to write down.
Are you saying that Moses was lying, or do you agree with his words above?
Did God make this covenant before bringing Israel out of the land of Egypt, and giving them His commandments?

God's rested on the seventh day from all his creative work. that rest has not ended, so that Sabbath is still ongoing, and persons who accept the sacrifice of christ, and grace, will enter into that sabbath rest, because god always keeps his promises.
Genesis 2:3; Psalm 95:10, 11; Hebrews 3:7-4:16

God did not give a sabbath command at the time he blessed the Sabbath day.
If you disagree, you are calling Moses a liar, and hence, God, and you need to show otherwise.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

When you answer my question which I asked from the very beginning, I will answer yours.
This is fair.

Skipping a pertinent question and ignoring something- point A, that does not get you to point B, and then asking a question on point B, is not only evasive, but it's not fair.

Point A begins with this:
Where did God give the Sabbath commandment?

I will let God answer this question...

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Sabbath started at Creation, thus saith the Lord.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3, 15
Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances that I declare in your hearing this day. Learn them and observe them carefully.
The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
He did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with all of us who are alive here today.

Deut 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Moses was not telling them there had not been any previous agreement about obeying God's law. There had been covenants with individual people as shown Gen 26:5 but it was on a personal basis.

Sinai, for the very first time, God entered into a covenant relationship with an entire nation, which represented His people. And it was that specific covenant that never existed before, not God's law that with out law there is no sin. Rom 4:15 It was sin for Cain to kill Abel, therefore he was give God's law to thou shalt not murder only found in the Ten Commandments

Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That is why the LORD your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

You need to realize this is Moses repeating the Ten Commandments 40 years later before entering into Canann for them to diligently keep. He paraphrased some but this statement most definitely applies to us as there are many parallels from Moses delivering God's people out of the bondage of sin which represents Egypt and delivering them into the promise land to where we are now where Jesus is the one delivering us from the bondage of sin we are in right now and delivering us to our Promise Land which is heaven. It changes nothing about not keeping the Sabbath day holy- the holy day of the Lord thy God Isa 58:13 thus saith the Lord which Jesus, His faithful followers and apostles all kept.

You yourself said the ten commandments is the covenant, when actually, the scriptures say, it is all the law - including those that God commanded Moses to write down.

Your disagreement again is not with me.

Exodus 34:28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (GOD) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

After writing down the Ten Commandments- God added NO MORE. Deut 5:22 Only the Ten Commandments were inside the ark Exo 40:20 - all other laws, ordinances statues etc was placed outside Deut 31:24-26

Are you saying that Moses was lying, or do you agree with his words above?
Did God make this covenant before bringing Israel out of the land of Egypt, and giving them His commandments?

He made it after, why would you think I said anything different, the false accusations are getting to be a bit much.

He gave it to them after bringing them out of Egypt, 40 years before entering the promise land. They were already keeping the commandments prior to God formally writing down His holy and etenral law written by His own finger Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18

God's rested on the seventh day from all his creative work. that rest has not ended, so that Sabbath is still ongoing,

Your words, not Gods Word. God rested on the seventh day at Creation because He rested from all His work of Creation

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Man was made in the image/likeness of God, which is why God commanded man to also rest from our work on the seventh day Sabbath. God knows man needs both physical rest and spiritual rest in Him which is what the Sabbath provides. Man can't sanctify themselves, we need God Eze 20:12, which is why the Sabbath is so important but many think they can sanctify themselves just like many of the Israelites did and why they never entered into their promise land Eze 20:13 Exe 20:21 and why we are told not to follow their same path of disobedience Heb 4:11

and persons who accept the sacrifice of christ, and grace, will enter into that sabbath rest, because god always keeps his promises.

No, the Sabbath rest is according to the commandment

Luke 23:56 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Which God said the seventh day is the Sabbath

Exodus 20"10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

We enter into Christ rest, when we are not disobedient to Him or His commandments. Heb 4:6 Heb 4:11

In Christ rest there is no disobedience just peace. And its conditional.


Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

God did not give a sabbath command at the time he blessed the Sabbath day.
If you disagree, you are calling Moses a liar, and hence, God, and you need to show otherwise.

Where exactly does Moses say the Sabbath didn't start at Creation and contradicted God. God said it started at Creation right in the Sabbath commandment. Exodus 20:11 The seventh day is the Sabbath Exo 20:10 God rested on the Sabbath day at Creation Exo 20:11 Gen 2:11 God is our example to follow as we are made in His likeness, not following Him or His example, is not something I would recommend, but we have free will

 

[CoreyD]

Your opinion of what scripture means is not scripture.

I can agree with that statement.
Our opinion of what scripture means is not scripture.

Have I given an opinion on what scripture means?
No, I simply ask questions, or consider person's questions, and let the Bible supply the answer.

On the other hand, if you were to read through the thread, and see how much commentary the sabbath keepers have, on the few scriptures they use, you will notice quite a lot of opinions.

What about you? How many scriptures did you use? Post #585; Post #587; Post #632; Post #640
None.
Why are you giving so many opinions, if you feel the way you do about your statement?

I see why.
You see it as each person giving their "position on a subject.

Our positions are so far apart they will never coincide as far as I'm concerned so let's just let it drop.

That is so sad.
What has the churches done to people.
They have minimized the value of the Bible.

You constantly misapply it.

I think you will say that I misapplied every verse that contradicts your "position".
That's okay. Thanks for sharing that opinion, although, you know It doesn't mean anything without evidence though... I hope.

 

[CoreyD]

I will let God answer this question...

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Sabbath started at Creation, thus saith the Lord.

Deut 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Moses was not telling them there had not been any previous agreement about obeying God's law. There had been covenants with individual people as shown Gen 26:5 but it was on a personal basis.

Sinai, for the very first time, God entered into a covenant relationship with an entire nation, which represented His people. And it was that specific covenant that never existed before, not God's law that with out law there is no sin. Rom 4:15 It was sin for Cain to kill Abel, therefore he was give God's law to thou shalt not murder only found in the Ten Commandments


You need to realize Moses repeated the Ten Commandments 40 years later before entering into Canann for them to diligently keep. He paraphrased some but this statement most definitely applies to us as there are many parallels from Moses delivering God's people out of the bondage of sin which represents Egypt and delivering them into the promise land to where we are now where Jesus is the one delivering us from the bondage of sin we are in right now and delivering us to our Promise Land which is heaven. It changes nothing about not keeping the Sabbath day holy- the holy day of the Lord thy God Isa 58:13 thus saith the Lord which Jesus, His faithful followers and apostles all kept.

"Sabbath started at Creation" is not an answer to the question "Where did God give the Sabbath commandment?"
A commandment is, "An order or injunction given by authority; a command; a charge; a precept; a mandate."

The question was not "when did God make the Sabbath", but "Where did God give the Sabbath commandment?"
So thank you.
The scriptures do not say God commanded the keeping of a Sabbath at creation.

I believe you already know this, hence why you attempt to answer after three pages had gone.

Your disagreement again is not with me.

Exodus 34:28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (GOD) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

After writing down the Ten Commandments- God added NO MORE. Deut 5:22 Only the Ten Commandments were inside the ark Exo 40:20 - all other laws, ordinances statues etc was placed outside Deut 31:24-26

You missed these. Exodus 24:3-8; Exodus 34:27, 28; Deuteronomy 31:9, 11

He made it after, why would you think I said anything different, the false accusations are getting to be a bit much.

The flesh side of me is tempted to say, Oh please... but I will refrain.
"If you disagree, then..." is not an accusation. It's a condition. I think you know this as well.
You certainly are older than 14.

He gave it to them after bringing them out of Egypt, 40 years before entering the promise land. They were already keeping the commandments prior to God formally writing down His holy and etenral law written by His own finger Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18

Is there a point to this?

Your words, not Gods Word. God rested on the seventh day at Creation because He rested from all His work of Creation

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Did I not say "God rested on the seventh day from all his creative work"?
I'm not seeing your point. Is there a point?

Man was made in the image/likeness of God, which is why God commanded man to also rest from our work on the seventh day Sabbath. God knows man needs both physical rest and spiritual rest in Him which is what the Sabbath provides.

This sounds like an idea you are sharing.
What's the point of all this though? Why are you going into all this. This is not a sermon, is it?

Man can't sanctify themselves, we need God Eze 20:12, which is why the Sabbath is so important but many think they can sanctify themselves just like many of the Israelites did and why they never entered into their promise land Eze 20:13 Exe 20:21 and why we are told not to follow their same path of disobedience Heb 4:11

Okay, it's a sermon. Why?
Why are you preaching a sermon, if you don't believe you know the truth?

No, the Sabbath rest is according to the commandment

Luke 23:56 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Which God said the Sabbath is the seventh day

Exodus 20"10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

We enter into Christ rest, when we are not disobedient to Him or His commandments. Heb 4:6 Heb 4:11

In Christ rest there is no disobedience just peace. And its conditional.


Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Where exactly does Moses say the Sabbath didn't start at Creation and contradicted God. God said it started at Creation right in the Sabbath commandment. Exodus 20:11 The seventh day is the Sabbath Exo 20:10 God rested on the Sabbath day at Creation Exo 20:11 Gen 2:11 God is our example to follow as we are made in His likeness, not following Him or His example, is not something I would recommend, but we have free will

I think its time for me to put away the pearls but you take care.

Ah. Preaching accomplished.
I'll take care. Thanks. You do the same.