Peaceful Conversation Sharing The Gospel At Pride Event

[MForbes]

I think this thread has reached the end of the tracks. What a wreck.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you for the recommendation of David Bentley Hart. I'm not familiar with him, but he looks very interesting, based on my quick look at his Wikipedia page. His book "That All May Be Saved" especially caught my eye.

He's a scholar of patristics and world religions, and is worth following.

Most of the Christian voices I like listening to or reading now days are Europeans or Canadians, not Americans. DBH is the one exception. Most American Christians have insular and shallow perspectives, in comparison.

 

[d taylor]

Faith is more important than having the right doctrines. "It's a relationship, not a religion" is closer to the truth of the matter.

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Faith has to have the correct object and God has sent Jesus to be the object of faith.

 

[1Tonne]

Paul is addressing believers and is simply saying believers if you continue to live according to the flesh God will take your earthly life as Paul states you will die.

It does not differentiate between the body and the spirit in that verse and so we must take it as complete. The death of both the body and spirit.

One last question.
The Pharisees believed Jesus was real. Are they saved too because they believed?

 

[d taylor]

It does not differentiate between the body and the spirit in that verse and so we must take it as complete. The death of both the body and spirit.

One last question.
The Pharisees believed Jesus was real. Are they saved too because they believed?

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Sure Romans does, you just do not see the verse this way because you base your Eternal Life salvation on obedience/commitment of the person. So people who believe this way also believe, believers can lose their Eternal Life salvation, if they do not stay committed enough.

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Either you are being purposely obtuse or making fun of God's grace and the way God has given to humanity. To become a born again child of God, by belief in Jesus.

Peaceful Conversation Sharing The Gospel At Pride Event

 

[1Tonne]

Sure Romans does, you just do not see the verse this way because you base your Eternal Life salvation on obedience/commitment of the person. So people who believe this way also believe, believers can lose their Eternal Life salvation, if they do not stay committed enough.

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Either you are being purposely obtuse or making fun of God's grace and the way God has given to humanity. To become a born again child of God, by belief in Jesus.

One last question.
The Pharisees believed Jesus was real. Are they saved too because they believed?

 

[d taylor]

One last question.
The Pharisees believed Jesus was real. Are they saved too because they believed?

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So when have i said believing Jesus is real gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Show me where i said that and i will answer your question.

 

[1Tonne]

You gave a link to FaithAlone. Read it.

 

[d taylor]

You gave a link to FaithAlone. Read it.

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Again i will state show me where i ever stated believing Jesus is real gives a person God;s free gift of Eternal Life. Post a link to the post i made linking to Grace Evangelical Society where they say this.

 

[d taylor]

You gave a link to FaithAlone. Read it.

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You read it What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[1Tonne]

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You read it What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

Sorry. I misread a paragraph and understood it to mean that you only have to believe He existed.
So, I can accept that I was wrong because I misread the link you gave.

But I am still in amazement that you believe that a rapist who continues to rape regularly and believes is still saved. Even though they continue in their sin and love it, this is called cheap grace.

 

[d taylor]

Sorry. I misread a paragraph and understood it to mean that you only have to believe He existed.
So, I can accept that I was wrong because I misread the link you gave.

But I am still in amazement that you believe that a rapist who continues to rape regularly and believes is still saved. Even though they continue in their sin and love it, this is called cheap grace.

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As i understand it grace is from God. So how does God making the one condition to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God, by belief in Jesus. How does this cheapen God's grace. In other words how does belief in Jesus cheapen God's grace.

 

[Laodicean60]

The Pharisees believed Jesus was real.

Did they believe He was the son of God?

 

[1Tonne]

As i understand it grace is from God. So how does God making the one condition to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God, by belief in Jesus. How does this cheapen God's grace.

Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross to pay the price for our sins. To accept and comprehend this truth, yet continue to sin, is akin to disregarding his sacrifice. Disregard implies a lack of appreciation; it's seeing what he did but assigning it little worth.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross to pay the price for our sins. To accept and comprehend this truth, yet continue to sin, is akin to disregarding his sacrifice. Disregard implies a lack of appreciation; it's seeing what he did but assigning it little worth.

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Jesus death on the cross also paid the price of the unbeliever and even the hatter of Jesus. But again appreciating and respecting what Jesus death on the cross cost Jesus. Is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Ideally it would be nice that every believer would be a ideal child of God, but that is not reality. It is not even seen in The Bible by believers who Paul disciple.

1 Corinthians 11

 

[1Tonne]

Ideally it would be nice that every believer would be a ideal child of God, but that is not reality. It is not even seen in The Bible by believers who Paul disciple.

We can't be perfect. You are correct. We will always fall short and that is when we go back to the cross.

So, the similarity between you and I is that we both believe that it is through faith in Jesus that we are saved. Such as in John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8. We agree.

The difference is that you believe a person can then continue in habitual sin and love his sin and have little regard for the sacrifice done on the cross and he is still saved. Even if the sin is paedophile, rapist or murderer.
While I believe that if someone sees the cross and has a true belief, they will have some understanding of the agony He took on the cross, and so they will desire to honour God. This wanting to honour God is a result of true belief. So, leaving your sin is not a work. It is an overflow from true belief. From this overflow, we can see the fruit that the Gospel has produced in a person's life. Hence the reason I reference James 2:24

 

[d taylor]

We can't be perfect. You are correct. We will always fall short and that is when we go back to the cross.

So, the similarity between you and I is that we both believe that it is through faith in Jesus that we are saved. Such as in John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8. We agree.

The difference is that you believe a person can then continue in habitual sin and love his sin and have little regard for the sacrifice done on the cross and he is still saved. Even if the sin is paedophile, rapist or murderer.
While I believe that if someone sees the cross and has a true belief, they will have some understanding of the agony He took on the cross, and so they will desire to honour God. This wanting to honour God is a result of true belief. So, leaving your sin is not a work. It is an overflow from true belief. From this overflow, we can see the fruit that the Gospel has produced in a person's life. Hence the reason I reference James 2:24

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Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. The means by which a person becomes a permanent born again child of God.
Happens in a moment of time, the time it takes a person to understand it is belief in Jesus that gives them the free gift of Eternal Life. Receiving Eternal Life is not a process that happens over a life time.

So a person that may have very little Bible knowledge or non at all. How are they to grasp the whole of what Jesus did. There you are at a store, on a sidewalk, at a gas station. What are you going to do spend hours bogging them down with all this that Jesus did.

Or are you going to ask them. How do you become a born again child of God, then give them the answer, if they do not know or they give a i am a good person answer.
By belief in Jesus and believing that Jesus is The promised Messiah/Son of God, the resurrection and the life. That it is faith in who Jesus is and not what you can do.

 

[Laodicean60]

Matt 7:21-24 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Who do you think these people are in Matthew and Mark??

Mar 9:38
Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
Mar 9:39
But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. (who speaks evil about Jesus?)
Mar 9:40
“For he who is not against us is on our[fn] side.
Mar 9:41
“For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

The difference is that you believe a person can then continue in habitual sin and love his sin and have little regard for the sacrifice done on the cross and he is still saved. Even if the sin is paedophile, rapist or murderer.

You must include alcoholism, bragging, judgmentalism, and all other skeletons everyone hides in the closet. A human can't live without sinning because no one is Jesus. To God all sin is the same and praise Jesus for his blood! I believed Jesus as Lord in my late 30s and I habitually practiced alcohol every day for 10 years until my granddaughter was born. God delivered me from alcoholism and to say I wasn't saved is wrong. Then I understood the true meaning of the prodigal son and His love for me.

 

[1Tonne]

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. The means by which a person becomes a permanent born again child of God.
Happens in a moment of time, the time it takes a person to understand it is belief in Jesus that gives them the free gift of Eternal Life. Receiving Eternal Life is not a process that happens over a life time.

Agreed. It is from the moment they choose to believe. But true belief will have actions with it. We will not be perfect but there will be a change and the change will continue throughout the persons life. John 3:3 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." We look up to Christ and believe and are saved. Just as the Israelites looked up to the serpent and were healed. It is by faith alone but when someone has true faith, they will act in a new way. Hence, they will be born again with a new mind and a new spirit to honour God.

So a person that may have very little Bible knowledge or non at all. How are they to grasp the whole of what Jesus did. There you are at a store, on a sidewalk, at a gas station. What are you going to do spend hours bogging them down with all this that Jesus did.

This is why we have been commanded to share the Gospel. We tell them the Gospel and then it is God who creates the growth. We cannot change them. Just as Phillip explained to the Ethiopian eunuch the Gospel and then left him. Phillip did not stay and disciple him. It says that he left. We are to trust in the power of the Gospel. It can change lives.

Who do you think these people are in Matthew and Mark??

Mar 9:38
Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
Mar 9:39
But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. (who speaks evil about Jesus?)
Mar 9:40
“For he who is not against us is on our[fn] side.
Mar 9:41
“For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

These are people who believe. But if you look in Matthew 7:21-24 these are also believers and they cast out demons and work miracles in His name, just like in Mark 9:38, but they also never chose to leave their sins. So, they chose not to honour God. They will have their reward that is coming to them.

You must include alcoholism, bragging, judgmentalism, and all other skeletons everyone hides in the closet. A human can't live without sinning because no one is Jesus. To God all sin is the same and praise Jesus for his blood! I believed Jesus as Lord in my late 30s and I habitually practiced alcohol every day for 10 years until my granddaughter was born. God delivered me from alcoholism and to say I wasn't saved is wrong. Then I understood the true meaning of the prodigal son and His love for me.

Exactly. I have never said that you will never sin. But I have said that there will be a change in those who truly have been to the foot of the cross. We have a change in us where we will love righteousness and hate evil (Born again), and this will drive us to live in a way that honours God. And over time, those sins like you had will become less and less. So, we can see that you believe because you are in the process of leaving your sin and choosing to honour God. Your actions substantiate your faith. James 2:24 says "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
"Let those who love the Lord hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 97:10

 

[Laodicean60]

The difference is that you believe a person can then continue in habitual sin and love his sin and have little regard for the sacrifice done on the cross and he is still saved. Even if the sin is paedophile, rapist or murderer.
While I believe that if someone sees the cross and has a true belief, they will have some understanding of the agony He took on the cross, and so they will desire to honour God. This wanting to honour God is a result of true belief. So, leaving your sin is not a work. It is an overflow from true belief. From this overflow, we can see the fruit that the Gospel has produced in a person's life. Hence the reason I reference James 2:24

Are you saying that in my habitual sin 10 years of alcoholism I did not have true belief in Jesus? The reason I ask you this is because you question people being saved or true belief by their actions. I got the message that I wasn't a true believer in Jesus because I drank for 10 years after being "born again.

Added: Mark 9:39 leads me to believe that these people weren't believers in Jesus.