Peaceful Conversation Sharing The Gospel At Pride Event

[1Tonne]

I've cited verses stating that believers who decide not to forsake their sins will face consequences. But you choose to ignore them.
Read Matt 9:13 “For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
This says that Jesus wanted sinners to have a change of mind. So, once they sinned, and then they changed to living in a Holy manner.

Also read Romans 2:5. It says "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honour, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honour, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Notice how those who are saved seek to do good.

What you act out is what you truly believe. If you are truly broken and contrite, then there will be a change in you. That is why the bible says that we are given a new heart and new mind. One that obeys Him. "I will give you a new heart and a new mind. I will take away your stubborn heart of stone and give you an obedient heart." Eze 36:26

We are saved by grace through faith, but we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Those who believe and choose to stay in sin will be in big trouble while those who choose to leave their old life and be born again will be justified. "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24

If we truly believe, we will want to honour God with our lives and we will leave our sins. It would be terrible to continue nailing Jesus to the cross.

 

[d taylor]

I've cited verses stating that believers who decide not to forsake their sins will face consequences. But you choose to ignore them.
Read Matt 9:13 “For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
This says that Jesus wanted sinners to have a change of mind. So, once they sinned, and then they changed to living in a Holy manner.

Also read Romans 2:5. It says "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honour, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honour, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Notice how those who are saved seek to do good.

What you act out is what you truly believe. If you are truly broken and contrite, then there will be a change in you. That is why the bible says that we are given a new heart and new mind. One that obeys Him. "I will give you a new heart and a new mind. I will take away your stubborn heart of stone and give you an obedient heart." Eze 36:26

We are saved by grace through faith, but we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Those who believe and choose to stay in sin will be in big trouble while those who choose to leave their old life and be born again will be justified. "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24

If we truly believe, we will want to honour God with our lives and we will leave our sins. It would be terrible to continue nailing Jesus to the cross.

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I do not ignore them. I just do not tie them to a person and use how they are living their life. As a judge to whether a person, has believed in Jesus for Eternal Life.

To you, by what i have taken from out discussions you would say the believers in John 12. Where really false believers, because they loved praise of man more than praise from God. So they would not confess Jesus as The Christ.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

 

[d taylor]

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Has anyone from this group who post threads about witnessing. Actually posted a video or an account of a person (unbeliever) after your presentation. Actually say i now believe in Jesus* for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

All i have seen are videos and written accounts where you go and give people tracks.

*So what does believing in Jesus mean.
It means to believe Jesus and who He, Jesus or other believers/disciples (Paul, Peter, Phillip, etc..) say Jesus is.
Which is The promised Messiah / Son of God, the resurrection and the life.

This is the name and believing in this name of Jesus. Is what gives people God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[1Tonne]

Has anyone from this group who post threads about witnessing. Actually posted a video or an account of a person (unbeliever) after your presentation. Actually say i now believe in Jesus* for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

I do not video my encounters, but I have had many say that they need to put their trust in Jesus and turn from their sins to honour God.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

This verse that you quoted is John 11:25-26. Within this verse, it uses the word "believes". This word in Greek is "pisteuō". This means to believe, commit unto, or trust.
So, what is true belief? Many believe and are not saved. A person can even think that they truly believe but when tested, they fail the test. So, they did not truly believe. For example, if you are going skydiving for the first time, on the ground you may be confident and say, "I will jump out of the plane. I have a parachute and so I will live." So, you believe you will be OK. But when you finally are at 10000 feet and you look out the door, you may say to yourself, "It's higher than I thought, and I would hate it if my parachute did not open. I am not going to jump."
So, even though you said you believed the parachute would save you, in the end, your true belief came out when you were tested. In the end, you did not trust the parachute and so you did not jump. So, in the end, we are justified by how we act and not by belief alone (James 2:24)

 

[d taylor]

I do not video my encounters, but I have had many say that they need to put their trust in Jesus and turn from their sins to honour God.


This verse that you quoted is John 11:25-26. Within this verse, it uses the word "believes". This word in Greek is "pisteuō". This means to believe, commit unto, or trust.
So, what is true belief? Many believe and are not saved. A person can even think that they truly believe but when tested, they fail the test. So, they did not truly believe. For example, if you are going skydiving for the first time, on the ground you may be confident and say, "I will jump out of the plane. I have a parachute and so I will live." So, you believe you will be OK. But when you finally are at 10000 feet and you look out the door, you may say to yourself, "It's higher than I thought, and I would hate it if my parachute did not open. I am not going to jump."
So, even though you said you believed the parachute would save you, in the end, your true belief came out when you were tested. In the end, you did not trust the parachute and so you did not jump. So, in the end, we are justified by how we act and not by belief alone (James 2:24)

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When a person believes, and people say belief is not enough, then this is an example of a works based approach to receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

When i tell a person it is belief in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Where this person has been correctly taught what belief in Jesus is. Believing that Jesus is who He says He is: The promised Messiah/Son of God, the resurrection and the life.

And they say they believe in Jesus (for Eternal Life), that they do believe Jesus is, The promised Messiah/Son of God, the resurrection and the life.

I am no judge as to whether they did actually believe this or not, but God does know. So neither me, you or any other person can judge this person on what they believed or did not believe. On how they live the rest of their life, after they say they have believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

What you are trying to make James say, is not what James is actually saying. James is not saying to believers, if you do not have works you are not saved. That is an idea that many injected into these verses in James 2, as James is writing to believers and not to people who just say they are believers.

Not to test them to see if they are real believers, but to motivate the believers to put their faith into action and work for the kingdom of God. There are many born again children of God, who are living their earthly lives out with dead faith.

 

[d taylor]

I do not video my encounters, but I have had many say that they need to put their trust in Jesus and turn from their sins to honour God.


This verse that you quoted is John 11:25-26. Within this verse, it uses the word "believes". This word in Greek is "pisteuō". This means to believe, commit unto, or trust.
So, what is true belief? Many believe and are not saved. A person can even think that they truly believe but when tested, they fail the test. So, they did not truly believe. For example, if you are going skydiving for the first time, on the ground you may be confident and say, "I will jump out of the plane. I have a parachute and so I will live." So, you believe you will be OK. But when you finally are at 10000 feet and you look out the door, you may say to yourself, "It's higher than I thought, and I would hate it if my parachute did not open. I am not going to jump."
So, even though you said you believed the parachute would save you, in the end, your true belief came out when you were tested. In the end, you did not trust the parachute and so you did not jump. So, in the end, we are justified by how we act and not by belief alone (James 2:24)

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These parachute, sitting in the chair, etc.. type of comparisons, are not Biblically based. The people who use these type of illustrations are ones who say it takes more than belief to become a born again child of God.

A persons faith is in God and his promise which can not fail or be a lie. Where as faith in a parachute is having faith in an object created by man, which can fail and has many times. So there is not comparison between a promise of God and a man created object.

 

[1Tonne]

When a person believes, and people say belief is not enough, then this is an example of a works based approach to receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Agreed. God gives the free gift of eternal life to those who truly believe. It is not by works. Works are simply a result of true belief. So, if someone carries on in sin, they either do not truly believe or they love their sin so much that they do not want to please God. God is not pleased with sin.

A persons faith is in God and his promise which can not fail or be a lie. Where as faith in a parachute is having faith in an object created by man, which can fail and has many times. So there is not comparison between a promise of God and a man created object.

This is an analogy. The parachute is Jesus. Put Jesus on. Many believe and do not put Him on. They do not walk in Him or trust in Him.

What you believe in is a heretical belief called "antinomianism"
Antinomianism is the belief that to be saved Christians simply need to believe and there is no need to live a moral life afterwards. Instead, Antinomians argue that faith alone is sufficient for salvation and that believers are freed from any obligation to follow moral rules or laws. Antinomians believe that they can simply believe and then continue in sin and they will be saved. There is no need to change how they live.

Let's look at Ephesians 2:8-10. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
So, we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. We both agree on this. But if we continue reading, we see that there is a purpose for us while we are here. The purpose for us is to do good works. This means that God has a specific intention for those who belong to Christ—to live in a way that reflects His goodness and righteousness. So, true belief will result in living a Godly life.
In essence, Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches that Christians are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ but are also created anew for a purpose—to actively engage in good works that God has ordained for them. These good works are part of God's eternal plan for believers, designed to bring glory to Him.
So, how can a believer who constantly sins bring God glory? He is more likely to bring shame and disrepute.

Can you please explain the last part of verse 10? What are these works and why are they created beforehand and do we have to walk in them?

 

[d taylor]

Agreed. God gives the free gift of eternal life to those who truly believe. It is not by works. Works are simply a result of true belief. So, if someone carries on in sin, they either do not truly believe or they love their sin so much that they do not want to please God. God is not pleased with sin.


This is an analogy. The parachute is Jesus. Put Jesus on. Many believe and do not put Him on. They do not walk in Him or trust in Him.

What you believe in is a heretical belief called "antinomianism"
Antinomianism is the belief that to be saved Christians simply need to believe and there is no need to live a moral life afterwards. Instead, Antinomians argue that faith alone is sufficient for salvation and that believers are freed from any obligation to follow moral rules or laws. Antinomians believe that they can simply believe and then continue in sin and they will be saved. There is no need to change how they live.

Let's look at Ephesians 2:8-10. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
So, we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. We both agree on this. But if we continue reading, we see that there is a purpose for us while we are here. The purpose for us is to do good works. This means that God has a specific intention for those who belong to Christ—to live in a way that reflects His goodness and righteousness. So, true belief will result in living a Godly life.
In essence, Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches that Christians are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ but are also created anew for a purpose—to actively engage in good works that God has ordained for them. These good works are part of God's eternal plan for believers, designed to bring glory to Him.
So, how can a believer who constantly sins bring God glory? He is more likely to bring shame and disrepute.

Can you please explain the last part of verse 10? What are these works and why are they created beforehand and do we have to walk in them?

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Show me a verse that states to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life a person must believe and put on Jesus.

Is that why you never use The Gospel of John because this book of The Bible states again and again and again. It is belief in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. So i guess The Gospel of John is a heretical book because the only requirement in the Gospel of John is belief in Jesus.


Ephesians and your understanding of these verses, show you do not separate belief from discipleship. Show me (in The Bible) where every single believer is going to be the fourth soil of the parable of the soils. And live a life devoted to serving Jesus, producing a life of good works.

Believers have been given good works (By God) to do, to serve God. They have not been given good works to prove they are a true believer to other people. But there is no verse in The Bible stating that all believers will be oh so willing to leave the world behind at take up a life doing these good works. God stating He has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Do you see the word should, this verse is not saying what you are trying to make it say. which is that all believers "will walk in them".

To you a person who states they have believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Will be the perfect believer and if they do not they were lying and they were not an actual believer.

People in The Bible like Aaron, Tamar, David, Samson, King Saul, Jonah, Balaam, Ananias and Sapphira, etc.. according to your beliefs did not measure up because they sinned a lot in their lives. so they must have been false believers

 

[1Tonne]

I notice you evade my questions, but I seem to answer yours. Are you unable to answer?

Show me a verse that states to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life a person must believe and put on Jesus.

When I say, "Put Him on", I am using the wording from the analogy. Putting Him on simply means trusting Him and living in His ways. Remember, the word belief does not simply mean belief. It means trust. But someone who does believe in something will act in accordance with that belief.

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)

G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

www.blueletterbible.org

Is that why you never use The Gospel of John because this book of The Bible states again and again and again. It is belief in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. So i guess The Gospel of John is a heretical book because the only requirement in the Gospel of John is belief in Jesus.

You are the one who seems to ignore verses. Matt 7:12-24, Luke 6:46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, James 2:24, Matt 9:13, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 2:10, Eze 36:26, 1 John 3:3, Romans 8:12-14, etc
The question once again is, what is true belief? Because the word "belief" is used in John. If we truly believe something, then we will act upon it. So, if I told you that there is a land mine on the path and you choose not to believe, you will walk right on it. But if you believe, you will act on what I told you and you will walk around the mine. So, your actions substantiate your belief. Just like in James 2:24.
If we truly believe that our sin put Jesus on the cross, then it would be terrible to simply continue in sin. That is like nailing another nail in His hand. We would want to leave our sin because we believe it put Him up there. Someone who continues in sin either does not believe or they do not have any regard for what Christ has done on the cross. They simply trample the cross.
So, a question for you. Is it OK for a believer to "believe" and continue in sin? Maybe they are a rapist and so they continue raping people as well as believe? Is this person still saved even though they continue to rape?

Ephesians and your understanding of these verses, show you do not separate belief from discipleship.

Let's look at Ephesians 2:8-10 again. (I have already gone over this)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. This is saying that we are saved by belief/trusting in Him.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." This is a part of discipleship. As we live in Christ, we will live in a way that brings Him glory. You are the one who combines these 2 verses and do not separate them.

Believers have been given good works (By God) to do, to serve God.

Correct.

But there is no verse in The Bible stating that all believers will be oh so willing to leave the world behind at take up a life doing these good works.

Your question is not very clear but if a believer is not born again, he will choose to live a life for himself and he will not care about honouring God. This is a carnal life instead of one that is spirit lead where a person will want to honour God.
Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

To you a person who states they have believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Will be the perfect believer and if they do not they were lying and they were not an actual believer.

No. I never said that. They will not be perfect as none of us can be. But they will desire to honour God and not to trample on the cross. They may slip up, but they will go back to God with a broken and contrite heart. They will have Godly sorrow.
"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation" 2 Cor 7:10
To me, this verse means that someone who is truly sorry for their sins will have a change of mind. They will not want to do those sins. They will leave their sin and choose to honour God, and this leads to salvation.
Can you tell me why would someone have Godly sorrow? What does repent mean in this verse? Why would Godly sorrow lead to salvation?
2 Tim 2:19 "The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” So, the Lord will know who His are and who does not belong. Those who are not His will still walk in iniquity. This would be those who in Matt 7:21-23 call God "Lord" but have not departed from sin.

So, you believe that there does not need to be a change in a person? They just simply believe and then if they continue raping, they will still be saved?

 

[d taylor]

I notice you evade my questions, but I seem to answer yours. Are you unable to answer?


When I say, "Put Him on", I am using the wording from the analogy. Putting Him on simply means trusting Him and living in His ways. Remember, the word belief does not simply mean belief. It means trust. But someone who does believe in something will act in accordance with that belief.

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)

G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

www.blueletterbible.org

You are the one who seems to ignore verses. Matt 7:12-24, Luke 6:46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, James 2:24, Matt 9:13, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 2:10, Eze 36:26, 1 John 3:3, Romans 8:12-14, etc
The question once again is, what is true belief? Because the word "belief" is used in John. If we truly believe something, then we will act upon it. So, if I told you that there is a land mine on the path and you choose not to believe, you will walk right on it. But if you believe, you will act on what I told you and you will walk around the mine. So, your actions substantiate your belief. Just like in James 2:24.
If we truly believe that our sin put Jesus on the cross, then it would be terrible to simply continue in sin. That is like nailing another nail in His hand. We would want to leave our sin because we believe it put Him up there. Someone who continues in sin either does not believe or they do not have any regard for what Christ has done on the cross. They simply trample the cross.
So, a question for you. Is it OK for a believer to "believe" and continue in sin? Maybe they are a rapist and so they continue raping people as well as believe? Is this person still saved even though they continue to rape?

Let's look at Ephesians 2:8-10 again. (I have already gone over this)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. This is saying that we are saved by belief/trusting in Him.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." This is a part of discipleship. As we live in Christ, we will live in a way that brings Him glory. You are the one who combines these 2 verses and do not separate them.

Correct.

Your question is not very clear but if a believer is not born again, he will choose to live a life for himself and he will not care about honouring God. This is a carnal life instead of one that is spirit lead where a person will want to honour God.
Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

No. I never said that. They will not be perfect as none of us can be. But they will desire to honour God and not to trample on the cross. They may slip up, but they will go back to God with a broken and contrite heart. They will have Godly sorrow.
"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation" 2 Cor 7:10
To me, this verse means that someone who is truly sorry for their sins will have a change of mind. They will not want to do those sins. They will leave their sin and choose to honour God, and this leads to salvation.
Can you tell me why would someone have Godly sorrow? What does repent mean in this verse? Why would Godly sorrow lead to salvation?
2 Tim 2:19 "The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” So, the Lord will know who His are and who does not belong. Those who are not His will still walk in iniquity. This would be those who in Matt 7:21-23 call God "Lord" but have not departed from sin.

So, you believe that there does not need to be a change in a person? They just simply believe and then if they continue raping, they will still be saved?

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The good ole, you do not answer my questions.

Any person who believes it is by belief in Jesus and that is how person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.
Would not ask the questions you ask or would not post verses that you post. As the verses you post (like 2 Corinthians 7:10) are not Eternal Life salvation verses and are not telling unbelievers what they must do to receive Eternal Life.
Actually verses like 2 Corinthians 7:10 are addressed to believers. To motivate them to live more Christ like lives and to save them form being disciplined by God for sinful actions in their lives.

The believer is changed. They cross over from death to life at the very moment of belief in Jesus. Their dead life they receive at birth from Adam, is now brought to life by the Life of God that now resides in the believer.

So actually now in the believer is still a sin nature (and will be till their death) and The Life of God (Holy Spirit). How a believer lives out their life after their faith in Jesus. Depends on how discipline they live as a believer.

If You do not understand what belief in Jesus is, that may be your problem. Looks like you define belief as obedience or commitment. But Biblical belief is the same type of belief used in everyday life.

For an example i am sure you have heard of the Mona Lisa (the painting) and that it is said the painting was painted by Leonardo da Vinci. Do you believe Leonardo painted the Mona Lisa,? Then you have believed.

If Jesus was still physically present and walking among people. And Jesus came up to you and said I am the resurrection and the life. Then you would, "to receive Eternal Life" have to believe in the physical Jesus speaking to you to receive God;s free gift of Eternal Life.

But Jesus is not physically present, so we now have the God inspired account written out in The Bible. We have faith in The witness (the words) The Bible gives about Jesus. We do not know what Jesus looks like, but God has given His promise that if a person believes in Jesus of The Bible (who is in Heaven now). They receive Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

It really is that simple, too bad you can not see the beautiful plan of God to give fallen man. The way back to God's family, by belief in Jesus.

https://faithalone.org/blog/what-does-it-mean-to-believe-in-jesus/

 

[1Tonne]

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The good ole, you do not answer my questions.

Any person who believes it is by belief in Jesus and that is how person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.
Would not ask the questions you ask or would not post verses that you post. As the verses you post (like 2 Corinthians 7:10) are not Eternal Life salvation verses and are not telling unbelievers what they must do to receive Eternal Life.
Actually verses like 2 Corinthians 7:10 are addressed to believers. To motivate them to live more Christ like lives and to save them form being disciplined by God for sinful actions in their lives.

The believer is changed. They cross over from death to life at the very moment of belief in Jesus. Their dead life they receive at birth from Adam, is now brought to life by the Life of God that now resides in the believer.

So actually now in the believer is still a sin nature (and will be till their death) and The Life of God (Holy Spirit). How a believer lives out their life after their faith in Jesus. Depends on how discipline they live as a believer.

If You do not understand what belief in Jesus is, that may be your problem. Looks like you define belief as obedience or commitment. But Biblical belief is the same type of belief used in everyday life.

For an example i am sure you have heard of the Mona Lisa (the painting) and that it is said the painting was painted by Leonardo da Vinci. Do you believe Leonardo painted the Mona Lisa,? Then you have believed.

If Jesus was still physically present and walking among people. And Jesus came up to you and said I am the resurrection and the life. Then you would, "to receive Eternal Life" have to believe in the physical Jesus speaking to you to receive God;s free gift of Eternal Life.

But Jesus is not physically present, so we now have the God inspired account written out in The Bible. We have faith in The witness (the words) The Bible gives about Jesus. We do not know what Jesus looks like, but God has given His promise that if a person believes in Jesus of The Bible (who is in Heaven now). They receive Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

It really is that simple, too bad you can not see the beautiful plan of God to give fallen man. The way back to God's family, by belief in Jesus.

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

So, the rapist, murderer, paedophile and all other people who love vile things can believe in Jesus and continue in their regular sin, living a life that does not honour God and they will still be saved? As long as they believe then they are saved? Wow. Even the Pharisees believed.

 

[d taylor]

So, the rapist, murderer, paedophile and all other people who love vile things can believe in Jesus and continue in their regular sin, living a life that does not honour God and they will still be saved? As long as they believe then they are saved? Wow. Even the Pharisees believed.

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You seem to be angered at God's grace and the extent of God's forgiveness. Looks like you think that God should think and act as a sinful human would.

So according to your definition of belief a sinful person must clean up their life before they can believe in Jesus. That is the message of repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.

If the sins of a person is an issue in receving God's free gift of Eternal Life, what was the reason Jesus died on the cross, which took away the sin of the world. Do you believe like all calvinist and reformed theology, that Jesus taking away all sin on the cross. Actually only applies to elected predestined believers and Jesus did not actually take away all sin.

 

[1Tonne]

You seem to be angered at God's grace and the extent of God's forgiveness. Looks like you think that God should think and act as a sinful human would.

No. Not angered at God. Just amazed at you. How you do not take the bible as a whole. You read some scriptures and then dismiss many others.
Matt 7:21-24, Luke 6:46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, James 2:24, Matt 9:13, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 2:10, Eze 36:26, 1 John 3:3, Romans 8:12-14, etc (I can add more)

So according to your definition of belief a sinful person must clean up their life before they can believe in Jesus. That is the message of repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.

Once again. You have muddled yourself again. I did not say to leave your sins and then believe. I said a person will believe and then becuase they believe they will act in a certain way. As I have said many times.

You never answered the question.
So, the rapist, murderers, paedophiles and all other people who love vile things can believe in Jesus and continue in their regular sin, living a life that does not honour God, they can live carnal lives, and they will still be saved?

 

[d taylor]

No. Not angered at God. Just amazed at you. How you do not take the bible as a whole. You read some scriptures and then dismiss many others.
Matt 7:21-24, Luke 6:46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, James 2:24, Matt 9:13, Romans 2:5, Ephesians 2:10, Eze 36:26, 1 John 3:3, Romans 8:12-14, etc (I can add more)

Once again. You have muddled yourself again. I did not say to leave your sins and then believe. I said a person will believe and then becuase they believe they will act in a certain way. As I have said many times.

You never answered the question.
So, the rapist, murderers, paedophiles and all other people who love vile things can believe in Jesus and continue in their regular sin, living a life that does not honour God, they can live carnal lives, and they will still be saved?

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I am not going to address every single verse you post, there is no need because none of the verses you post are addressing what an unbeliever must do to become a born again child of God. But take Romans 8:12-14

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Paul is addressing believers and is simply saying believers if you continue to live according to the flesh God will take your earthly life as Paul states you will die.

So as you say: the rapist, murderers, paedophiles and all other people who love vile things.
Who have believed in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation and are now a member of God's family. Being that they are now a born again child of God, they have a very high chance of God taking their earthly physical life. That is if they, "as a born again child of God", continue in their sinful ways.
If they repent of their sin, God may spare their earth;y life and they may continue to live. But this repentance has nothing to do with becoming a born again child of God, which is only by belief in Jesus
I do not see why this is so hard for you to see and understand

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It does not matter if leaving sins is before or after belief, you still believe it is more than simple belief in Jesus, that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

I have never answered the question, every time i say it is belief in Jesus that gives a person Eternal Life i answer the question.

The murder who believes in Jesus is a born again child of God. The holy buddhist monk who has lived a good life (according to the world) but does not believe in Jesus, is a child of the devil.

That is God's grace.

 

[FireDragon76]

From what I heard on the video, Lucille believes that we have forgiveness of sins through the death of Jesus Christ, so you may have been talking with a fellow believer (albeit one who disagrees with you on some things). I'm glad you had a good conversation.

What was on your sign? I couldn't see in the video.

Edit: On second viewing, I hear Lucille say at the beginning that they're "not specifically religious" and that they see Jesus as "a human being", so at some point I hope Lucille comes to understand why an Athanasian Christology is theologically important. Still, there's some good common ground there.

There's nothing heretical about saying Jesus is human. Not only that, Jesus is fully human.

You might want to look up David Bentley Hart's recent work on monistic Christology. He's shown how Christians have spilled alot of ink over Christological minutiiae, largely in vain. The important thing is what the life of Jesus says about God and how his life opens new possibilities in being human. That is what is ultimately soteriologically important, the difference between wooden orthodoxy and salvific orthopraxy.

I actually think this is one reason miaphysite Christology of the Oriental Orthodox may actually be the purest form of orthodox Christology out there, because it fully affirms (as far as I understand it) that Jesus is not only a divine person, but also a human person.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you!! The one side says, "Jesus said, 'Come unto me all weary & burdened; I will give you rest.'" and the other side says, "Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life.'"

I don't see a contradiction in those statements. God is capable of meeting us where we are, that is the implication of the incarnation.

 

[d taylor]

There's nothing heretical about saying Jesus is human. Not only that, Jesus is fully human.

You might want to look up David Bentley Hart's recent work on monistic Christology. He's shown how Christians have spilled alot of ink over Christological minutiiae, largely in vain. The important thing is what the life of Jesus says about God and how his life opens new possibilities in being human. That is what is ultimately soteriologically important, the difference between wooden orthodoxy and salvific orthopraxy.

I actually think this is one reason miaphysite Christology of the Oriental Orthodox may actually be the purest form of orthodox Christology out there, because it fully affirms (as far as I understand it) that Jesus is not only a divine person, but also a human person.

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There is no problem believing Jesus is human. The problem arises when that is all a person believes Jesus is a extremely good human. Even further than this, one can even believe Jesus died on the cross for their sin. But if they never believe in Jesus for Eternal Life they remain an unbeliever.

 

[PloverWing]

There's nothing heretical about saying Jesus is human. Not only that, Jesus is fully human.

You might want to look up David Bentley Hart's recent work on monistic Christology. He's shown how Christians have spilled alot of ink over Christological minutiiae, largely in vain. The important thing is what the life of Jesus says about God and how his life opens new possibilities in being human. That is what is ultimately soteriologically important, the difference between wooden orthodoxy and salvific orthopraxy.

I actually think this is one reason miaphysite Christology of the Oriental Orthodox may actually be the purest form of orthodox Christology out there, because it fully affirms (as far as I understand it) that Jesus is not only a divine person, but also a human person.

I definitely agree that Jesus is human, fully human. This is the orthodox Christian position. It sounded to me like the speaker was denying the Incarnation; hence, my hope that at some point they come to understand why the Incarnation is important in Christian theology. But it's really hard to evaluate the entirety of a person's religious beliefs based on one 5-minute conversation in the street.

As far as soteriology goes, Lucille was emphasizing that we have salvation and forgiveness of sins through the finished work of Christ, while the person holding the sign was emphasizing the need for human effort in salvation. That's the classic two sides of it -- grace and works -- but I'm favoring Lucille on this one.

Thank you for the recommendation of David Bentley Hart. I'm not familiar with him, but he looks very interesting, based on my quick look at his Wikipedia page. His book "That All May Be Saved" especially caught my eye.

 

[FireDragon76]

I definitely agree that Jesus is human, fully human. This is the orthodox Christian position. It sounded to me like the speaker was denying the Incarnation; hence, my hope that at some point they come to understand why the Incarnation is important in Christian theology. But it's really hard to evaluate the entirety of a person's religious beliefs based on one 5-minute conversation in the street.

As far as soteriology goes, Lucille was emphasizing that we have salvation and forgiveness of sins through the finished work of Christ, while the person holding the sign was emphasizing the need for human effort in salvation. That's the classic two sides of it -- grace and works -- but I'm favoring Lucille on this one.

The finished work of Christ is the Reformed and Lutheran position, ie, the vast majority of historic Protestants.

Human effort relates to sanctification, not justification or the forgiveness of sins.

 

[FireDragon76]

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There is no problem believing Jesus is human. The problem arises when that is all a person believes Jesus is a extremely good human. Even further than this, one can even believe Jesus died on the cross for their sin. But if they never believe in Jesus for Eternal Life they remain an unbeliever.

Faith is more important than having the right doctrines. "It's a relationship, not a religion" is closer to the truth of the matter.