Eternal punishment vs eternal life

[tonychanyt]

New International Version, Matthew 25:

46 Then they will go away to eternal [G166] punishment, but the righteous to eternal [G166] life.

Did these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what did it mean?

They were the same Greek word in the same sentence and carried the same meaning. See αἰώνιος.

G166-Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is G166-eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:

Then they will go away to permanent punishment/death, but the righteous to permanent life.

Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:

9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also

• Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

 

[Qubit]

They are the same Greek word in the same sentence, so I think they carry the same meaning.

I can agree with that.

Eternal life is immortal life.

If:
Eternal Life = Immortal Life

Then:
Enteral Punishment = Mortal Life

The question is this: What is eternal punishment?

It means a place of correction...

Strong's 2851: kolasis
Definition: correction
"...punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished"

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- Punishment, correction

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life.

Correct.

Note that they are also locations. They are two places that one can exist in.

Read the verse carefully...

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

They 'go away into'. It is a 'place' and specific geography as opposed to a 'state of being'.

The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:

And there is where you messed up. You let your bias come to a false conclusion.

As I just noted, 'punishment' means correction.

It is about rehabilitating and setting someone on the right path again.

Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense.

It depends on the location. We currently exist in the location called 'Eternal Punishment'.

To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7).

Yes, and just to be clear, we have always been conscious. We have always existed.

In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

I suppose.

There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

No, there is not. There is no justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

Let us understand this logically:

• The opposite of Hell is Abraham's Bosom.
• The opposite of the New Heavens and New Earth is *THIS* Heavens and *THIS* Earth.

Thus:

• Eternal Life = New Heavens and New Earth
• Enteral Punishment = This Heavens and This Earth

The above is proper exegesis.

We are here to be corrected from the last time we went through the Portal...

The Lake of Fire (Tophet) is the Moment of Conception

The Lake of Fire has several names in the Bible. One of them is 'Gehenna'. This word comes from the Old Testament, and a place called the 'Valley of the Son/Children of Hinnom'. Another name for the Lake of Fire is 'Tophet'... 2 Kings 23:10 "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the...

www.christianforums.com

You folks on this forum have such a long way to go. I am trying to help but I guess I will keep getting ignored.

Just remember, you will have to explain to God why you teach that God is more wicked than Satan. That is on you.

 

[Grip Docility]

New International Version, Matthew 25:


Do these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what does it mean?

They are the same Greek word in the same sentence, so I think they carry the same meaning.

Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:


Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:


Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:


Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

Pulpit Commentary:


There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

You are spot on in Exegesis. The reason the Eternal torment doctrine is so cherished is that some people believe that it scares unbelievers into believing. The other reason is that some people really desire that some folks suffer eternally.

This said, when Jesus discusses "Destroying a soul or killing a soul" it really does leave no other conclusion. I typically don't go so far as to say what you have said because for some quirky reason, many Christians Love the Eternal suffering doctrine.

This said, you have exegeted as honestly as the passage can be exegeted in reference to all scripture on the topic.

 

[David Lamb]

New International Version, Matthew 25:


Do these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what does it mean?

They are the same Greek word in the same sentence, so I think they carry the same meaning.

Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:


Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:


Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:


Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

Pulpit Commentary:


There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

The word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 apparently can mean correction, penalty, torment, punishment. If unsaved sinners are merely annihilated, their punishment would not be eternal - a person who is annihilated doesn't continue experiencing punishment!

 

[Ted-01]

The word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 apparently can mean correction, penalty, torment, punishment. If unsaved sinners are merely annihilated, their punishment would not be eternal - a person who is annihilated doesn't continue experiencing punishment!

I'm not so sure, David.

To be annihilated would eternally separate one from the love of God, forever. No more chances to enjoy being in His presence. How much more punishment can a person receive than to lose everything?

That's it, it's over. Done. Gone

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not so sure, David.

To be annihilated would eternally separate one from the love of God, forever. No more chances to enjoy being in His presence. How much more punishment can a person receive than to lose everything?

That's it, it's over. Done. Gone

I see what you mean. But if you've been annihilated, you can't be enduring the punishment eternally - after annihilation there would be no "you".

 

[Ted-01]

I see what you mean. But if you've been annihilated, you can't be enduring the punishment eternally - after annihilation there would be no "you".

That is true... no doubt about it.

David, have you ever been praying about something and had God speak to you? I mean, sometimes, when I'm in prayer, I get a "flash download" of some "thing" that I just know was from God. An answer to prayer or something. I instantly understand deeper in whatever was weighing on me... it's like an enlightenment or illumination on some subject... knowledge that I didn't have 5 seconds before. No audible voices, no angelic visits... just understanding and a sense of His presence?

**Edit: That flash of understanding might also be an understanding of a sin in my life... I have felt the weight of guilt that I believe only the Holy Spirit can impart.

I hope that you have had this experience, or what I ask next might have little relevance.
Imagine that moment just before being annihilated...

 

[David Lamb]

That is true... no doubt about it.

David, have you ever been praying about something and had God speak to you? I mean, sometimes, when I'm in prayer, I get a "flash download" of some "thing" that I just know was from God. An answer to prayer or something. I instantly understand deeper in whatever was weighing on me... it's like an enlightenment or illumination on some subject... knowledge that I didn't have 5 seconds before. No audible voices, no angelic visits... just understanding and a sense of His presence?

**Edit: That flash of understanding might also be an understanding of a sin in my life... I have felt the weight of guilt that I believe only the Holy Spirit can impart.

I hope that you have had this experience, or what I ask next might have little relevance.
Imagine that moment just before being annihilated...

Yes, particularly when reading the bible. And yes, in the supposed moment of annihilation, I would regret the passing of such communication. However, we were discussing unsaved people. You and I on the other hand are speaking as saved people.

Also, the moment before being annihilated isn't eternity. Interesting discussion!

 

[Grip Docility]

That is true... no doubt about it.

David, have you ever been praying about something and had God speak to you? I mean, sometimes, when I'm in prayer, I get a "flash download" of some "thing" that I just know was from God. An answer to prayer or something. I instantly understand deeper in whatever was weighing on me... it's like an enlightenment or illumination on some subject... knowledge that I didn't have 5 seconds before. No audible voices, no angelic visits... just understanding and a sense of His presence?

**Edit: That flash of understanding might also be an understanding of a sin in my life... I have felt the weight of guilt that I believe only the Holy Spirit can impart.

I hope that you have had this experience, or what I ask next might have little relevance.
Imagine that moment just before being annihilated...

So, one small bit of humor. My mother is biologically Jewish and has the mentality to this day due to her family history. A Jewish guilt trip isn't a small matter. It's a real thing!

So... are we positing that the last experience of the Wicked will be the most infinitely painful Jewish Guilt trip that has ever been delivered?

 

[Ted-01]

Yes, particularly when reading the bible. And yes, in the supposed moment of annihilation, I would regret the passing of such communication. However, we were discussing unsaved people. You and I on the other hand are speaking as saved people.

Also, the moment before being annihilated isn't eternity. Interesting discussion!

David, consider the weight that Christ bore on the cross. The sins that He took on and the wrath of the Father that Jesus had to experience.
Perhaps I may be taking things too far, but in context of this discussion, could it be that because Christ had taken on those sins and had to experience the wrath of God, commensurate of those sins... could He have been on the brink of annihilation? That had it not have been that He was God, incarnate, He too would have been annihilated? Remember the grief that Christ endured, both in the Garden and on the cross...

Then, what of the unrepentant man that stands before the Judgement Throne and is suddenly made aware of all the sin that they committed throughout all their life. They suddenly experience the reality of their guilt, and then the wrath that is due for that sin... but they are not Christ and cannot endure it? The torment of all that is something that I couldn't imagine. And the realization of all that in those moments, that there was no remedy for their situation. That they will miss out on all the riches of eternal life... gone.

IDK... just rambling here, I just know that it's not something that I'd care to experience.

 

[Ted-01]

So, one small bit of humor. My mother is biologically Jewish and has the mentality to this day due to her family history. A Jewish guilt trip isn't a small matter. It's a real thing!

So... are we positing that the last experience of the Wicked with be the most infinitely painful Jewish Guilt trip that has ever been delivered?

Yes... that might be a good analogy.
Awesome bit of humor!

 

[brakelite]

I see what you mean. But if you've been annihilated, you can't be enduring the punishment eternally - after annihilation there would be no "you".

The scripture doesn't stipulate continuing action. It says eternal punishment. Not eternal punishing.

 

[Ted-01]

David, consider the weight that Christ bore on the cross. The sins that He took on and the wrath of the Father that Jesus had to experience.
Perhaps I may be taking things too far, but in context of this discussion, could it be that because Christ had taken on those sins and had to experience the wrath of God, commensurate of those sins... could He have been on the brink of annihilation? That had it not have been that He was God, incarnate, He too would have been annihilated? Remember the grief that Christ endured, both in the Garden and on the cross...

Then, what of the unrepentant man that stands before the Judgement Throne and is suddenly made aware of all the sin that they committed throughout all their life. They suddenly experience the reality of their guilt, and then the wrath that is due for that sin... but they are not Christ and cannot endure it? The torment of all that is something that I couldn't imagine. And the realization of all that in those moments, that there was no remedy for their situation. That they will miss out on all the riches of eternal life... gone.

IDK... just rambling here, I just know that it's not something that I'd care to experience.

I just wanted to add to this post a serious question, presented in a light-hearted manner?

What/Whay was Jesus so concerned with in the Garden... so much so that He sweated as He did?
Yes, He was man, but also, He was God. And He could deal the "bad times" that life presents. So, what was the big deal? Yeah, crucifixion would fall under a good day, but He'd be dead in six hours or so. Then He'd have to listen to His Father, drone on and on about righteousness and obedience, or whatever, over the weekend. And then it's all over.
A bad weekend, to be sure, but "survivable". What caused the Agony part?

 

[Grip Docility]

I just wanted to add to this post a serious question, presented in a light-hearted manner?

What/Whay was Jesus so concerned with in the Garden... so much so that He sweated as He did?
Yes, He was man, but also, He was God. And He could deal the "bad times" that life presents. So, what was the big deal? Yeah, crucifixion would fall under a good day, but He'd be dead in six hours or so. Then He'd have to listen to His Father, drone on and on about righteousness and obedience, or whatever, over the weekend. And then it's all over.
A bad weekend, to be sure, but "survivable". What caused the Agony part?

Jesus suffered the sum total of all human suffering from the Garden of Gethsemane to the final moment that He gave up His Ghost. He literally carried the entire weight of ALL human suffering from Adam and Eve to the people of the final day. It's a fair conclusion.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

The Father experienced the Pain of seeing His precious Son utterly tortured by Creation.
The Son experienced the Pain of being cut off from His Father and the pain of being tortured by Creation.
God in totality experienced the Pain of being the Creator, Dying at the hands of His beloved Creation.

It's emotion that is incomprehensible!
It's emotion that "a god" could never have handled.
It's emotion that only THE ONLY LIVING GOD could overcome, victoriously.

 

[Ted-01]

Jesus suffered the sum total of all human suffering from the Garden of Gethsemane to the final moment that He gave up His Ghost. He literally carried the entire weight of ALL human suffering from Adam and Eve to the people of the final day. It's a fair conclusion.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

The Father experienced the Pain of seeing His precious Son utterly tortured by Creation.
The Son experienced the Pain of being cut off from His Father and the pain of being tortured by Creation.
God in totality experienced the Pain of being the Creator, Dying at the hands of His beloved Creation.

It's emotion that is incomprehensible!
It's emotion that "a god" could never have handled.
It's emotion that only THE ONLY LIVING GOD could overcome, victoriously.

That's an interesting thought... one that I hadn't really considered much, if at all. I always focused on things like the separation from God, that was coming, the weight of sin and perhaps the guilt (IDK?), and at times, the possibility of standing on the brink of annihilation?

I've heard many try to separate emotion from God's love... I always found that disturbing. Compassion, which was attributed to Christ, IMHO, speaks directly to deep emotional connection. And here you are, suggesting that Jesus felt our suffering!

Thank you, brother!

 

[tonychanyt]

What/Whay was Jesus so concerned with in the Garden... so much so that He sweated as He did?
Yes, He was man, but also, He was God. And He could deal the "bad times" that life presents. So, what was the big deal?

Good questions. I think it has to do with being forsaken by the Father. Check out My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN me?

 

[Ted-01]

Good questions. I think it has to do with being forsaken by the Father. Check out My God, my God, why have you FORSAKEN me?

I read it and really enjoyed it! I had missed it, previously... thank you Tony for your diligence in study and sharing with us!

 

[Qubit]

You are spot on in Exegesis.

Not even close.

Spirit is not destroyed or 'annihilated'.

Spirit returns to God who gave it to begin with...

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Scientifically, Energy is not destroyed it is transferred.

God does not 'kill himself'.

 

[contratodo]

The sinners in Zion are afraid,
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever:
and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-11

There shall be a resurrection of the dead, of both the just and the unjust.
Acts 24:15

some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to hades, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgement....
to whom the gloom of darkness is reserved forever.
2 Peter 2:4,17

 

[tonychanyt]

The sinners in Zion are afraid,
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever:
and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-11

There shall be a resurrection of the dead, of both the just and the unjust.
Acts 24:15

some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to hades, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgement....
to whom the gloom of darkness is reserved forever.
2 Peter 2:4,17

So, does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?