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Eco Church

Akita Suggagaki

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Yes sorry a typo.

I said...
"Well I guess Satan doesn't care what you do as long as souls are not being saved and he present it as spiritual, and can moralise about it."

Not sure we have the same scriptural foundation to mutually understand what I was saying.

Look at it this way.

Jesus came with a message about freedom and bondage.

The Kingdom of Light and the kingdom of darkness.

The Church was commissioned to share the message of the Gospel which was the good news of being released form the dark kingdom we are all born into.

Jesus also spoke about the arch enemy of our souls who is determined to keep folks captive in darkness by whatever means necessary.

Sadly the focus of church life is often anything but preaching the gospel and seeing people saved from eternal darkness. We have often intellectualised Christianity and folks are fed a more humanistic message missing the central reason for the church's existence.

So preaching Eco-sensitivity is easily an add-on to what is already missing the mark creating a feel good diversion that does not address the centrality of Jesus message.

Especially if it coated with spirituality and is presented as a moral imperative and folks who resist are stricken with the guilts.

The danger then is no one is saved from darkness which was the intent of Jesus message.

And the Arch enemy of our souls rejoices in his victory. He doesn't care what we do as long as souls remain in darkness under his control.
I see. Maybe there is not enough agreement about what the core message of the Gospel is. Stewardship is indeed an "add on" as you say, important though it is. Books have been written on The Gospel with different emphases because it has so many implications. A close reading of the New Testament leaves us with a pretty clear recognition of:
  1. God has taken on human flesh and blood.
  2. As a human he brings the Kingdom of God/Heaven to us
  3. He tough by parable and example how to follow him
  4. Love is the key requirement
  5. He suffered and died so that sins may be forgiven
  6. Those who chose to believe in him are granted the grace of a new birth
  7. This new birth is the beginning of everlasting life.
Note: Nothing in there about the ecology. At that time it was not an issue. The planet was not in danger due to human exploitation.
Care for the Earth, stewardship is simply wisdom.
 
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Paidiske

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Care for the Earth, stewardship is simply wisdom.
I think it is more than wisdom; care for the creation is an act of worship of the Creator.

More broadly in response to recent comments in the thread, I find the idea that anything other than a very narrow idea of sharing the gospel, is somehow a diversion from what we should be doing as the church, to be really unhelpful. The reign of God is comprehensive, extending to every aspect of life, and so should our proclamation of it.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I think it is more than wisdom; care for the creation is an act of worship of the Creator.

More broadly in response to recent comments in the thread, I find the idea that anything other than a very narrow idea of sharing the gospel, is somehow a diversion from what we should be doing as the church, to be really unhelpful. The reign of God is comprehensive, extending to every aspect of life, and so should our proclamation of it.
I would agree. But I would have to add with Carl that any aspect can be emphasized to the point of distraction.
 
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Paidiske

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I would agree. But I would have to add with Carl that any aspect can be emphasized to the point of distraction.
I agree. In a way, I am arguing against emphasising one narrow aspect to the exclusion of everything else.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I agree. In a way, I am arguing against emphasising one narrow aspect to the exclusion of everything else.
On the other hand, each of us as individuals often have to chose one thing to really commit to.
 
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Paidiske

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On the other hand, each of us as individuals often have to chose one thing to really commit to.
But this is the beauty of the rich variety that is the church!
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes, the conversation seems to have arrived at a good place.

The individual chooses to specialise in a given area of service without feeling guilty or obliged by the specialisations of others.

However to add this eco focus onto the official ministry of the church emphasised one aspect of service and introduces imbalance and inferred obligation.

Jesus said "the poor you will alway have with you but you will not always have me." Herein lies the focus we should be maintaining - not 'Lost Soul centred' not 'Eco Centred' not 'Charity Centred' but Jesus centred.

And what was His central message regarding the Kingdom?

Entrance by repentance and love, allowing His Kingdom Reign to rule in all aspects of life both individual and corporate.

Prioritising Him - not the earth - as He said...

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

I might add that I helped to pioneer the solar industry in New Zealand and operated a business in renewable energy for 13 years specialising in eco friendly housing.
 
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Paidiske

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However to add this eco focus onto the official ministry of the church emphasised one aspect of service and introduces imbalance and inferred obligation.
Only if we ignore all the other ministries of the church. Churches, after all, run schools, hospitals, food banks, counselling services and all manner of other things; nobody says that because we run a school, we see everything through the lens of education as a priority; or that because we run a hospital, we see everything through the lens of health as a priority. Rather, all of these things contribute to the whole picture of the church's mission and ministry.

And environmental stewardship is only one part of that whole picture. I'd say there's an implied obligation for all Christians to care for creation; but what that looks like for each person is going to differ according to their circumstances.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Only if we ignore all the other ministries of the church. Churches, after all, run schools, hospitals, food banks, counselling services and all manner of other things; nobody says that because we run a school, we see everything through the lens of education as a priority; or that because we run a hospital, we see everything through the lens of health as a priority. Rather, all of these things contribute to the whole picture of the church's mission and ministry.

And environmental stewardship is only one part of that whole picture. I'd say there's an implied obligation for all Christians to care for creation; but what that looks like for each person is going to differ according to their circumstances.

This sounds right in theory, but adopting the title of "EcoChurch" in the present Global Political Climate certainly does present a narrow view as it is presented with the obligation to personally consider 'carbon neutrality' and stresses the implied unrighteousness of those who don't take the measure seriously.
 
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Paidiske

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This sounds right in theory, but adopting the title of "EcoChurch" in the present Global Political Climate certainly does present a narrow view as it is presented with the obligation to personally consider 'carbon neutrality' and stresses the implied unrighteousness of those who don't take the measure seriously.
Well, I was commenting on care for the environment more generally. "EcoChurch" isn't a name I'd choose, personally, but I'm disinclined to descend into hyperventilating about it, either.

And yeah, I think there is an obligation to personally, at least consider, these things. I wouldn't be wanting to imply anyone else's unrighteousness on this or most any other grounds, but it's not wrong for a church to put that forward as an ethical ideal.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well, I was commenting on care for the environment more generally. "EcoChurch" isn't a name I'd choose, personally, but I'm disinclined to descend into hyperventilating about it, either.

And yeah, I think there is an obligation to personally, at least consider, these things. I wouldn't be wanting to imply anyone else's unrighteousness on this or most any other grounds, but it's not wrong for a church to put that forward as an ethical ideal.

Yes - can agree on that level - however have you googled EcoChurch and read the expectations ?
 
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Paidiske

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Yes - can agree on that level - however have you googled EcoChurch and read the expectations ?
No, because I was treating this as a more general discussion. I dislike threads that are about nothing more than criticising others.

Edit: having now done so, it's not even a church. It's an accreditation programme for environmental stewardship, for churches. On that basis I have no issue. In fact, I'm bookmarking it as some of its resources look really useful.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Fine - we will have to agree to disagree...

You might comment on the ecological disasters that occurred under God's hand during the flood, the plagues in Egypt and the destruction of Sodom...

You might also like to comment on the matter I raised about the healing of the land spoken of by God as a response to prayer, repentance and humility.
 
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Paidiske

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You might comment on the ecological disasters that occurred under God's hand during the flood, the plagues in Egypt and the destruction of Sodom...
I see them as completely irrelevant. They don't say anything about our obligation (or lack thereof) with regards to environmental stewardship today.
You might also like to comment on the matter I raised about the healing of the land spoken of by God as a response to prayer, repentance and humility.
Well, repentance and humility would probably include repenting of exploiting the earth to a damaging degree, and having the humility to see that we are here to serve the flourishing of the earth, so...
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well, repentance and humility would probably include repenting of exploiting the earth to a damaging degree, and having the humility to see that we are here to serve the flourishing of the earth, so...
I am not so sure that these sins were being referred to in ancient times. Natures cycles were much more destructive than man's footprint back then.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So lets look at the questions I raised in the OP...

Turning water of rivers into blood is an environmental disaster of huge proportions.

Are we not told that He will make a new heavens and a new earth?

Is there a subtle idolatry when we change focus from Jesus and the great commission to looking after the earth?

Anything is idolatrous when it replaces the Lord.

I believe that good theology includes good theology about creation. And good theology about creation means recognizing the innate goodness of the creation. The earth is good, there is an innate goodness because God is the Author of creation and He declared all that He made "exceedingly good".

We also live in an age of death and disorder, creation suffers and is subjugated to the futility of death and decay, out of which God is going to rescue and redeem it. That is why we believe in the healing and redemption of creation: new heavens and new earth. But our future hope is never permitted to be an excuse for present evil. This is true of many things, such as justice. We believe, and hope, that in the end God's justice shall prevail and all shall be made right; because in this fallen world there is great injustice. But this present injustice, and our hope for future justice is never permitted as an excuse for us to be complacent--or worse, complicit--in present injustice. When God established His covenant with Israel He established His Law, He made Israel to be a nation of justice and order in an unjust and disordered world; a place where rather than more of the same injustice--the poor, the hungry, the needy being left out and suffering--Israel was to be a people who took care of the least of these, where there would be justice for widows, justice for victims, justice for the poor, the hungry, and the needy. Where those who committed injustice would be brought to justice, and there would be restitution.

Which is why Christians have always also upheld the necessity of a lawful, just, and peaceful (insofar as it is possible) society in which there can be human flourishing. We love our neighbor, not merely by abstaining from cruel acts toward them, but by actively seeking what is good for our neighbor, holding to the Rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This has always been the essence of Christian ethics, to do what is right, and to seek the good not just for ourselves but for our neighbors, especially for the marginalized and the least of these.

In application to creation, broadly speaking, again Scripture speaks quite clearly against evil against God's creation. Cruelty toward animals is forbidden, sinful, and evil. The laws which governed Israel included laws for letting beasts of burden feed upon part of the field crop as well as setting aside part of the yield as a tithe for the Levites, foreigners, and the poor. "You shall not muzzle the ox" means exactly this.

The bounty of the earth is to be celebrated as God's gift, rather than treated as something to be exploited--the exploitation of God's good creation has often been a source of not just acts of cruelty toward creation, but cruelty toward our neighbors. When we go to war over resources, people suffer; when we seek to steal the land of others we make it so those others cannot enjoy the bounty of that land. When we poison our lakes and rivers we harm everything that depends on those lakes and streams--including ourselves, the towns and villages where people need clean drinking water, and depend on the health of the land to provide food, and labor.

Environmental concerns should never become an idol. But Christian ethics, and good theology, means that we understand that while in this present fallen age there is evil and injustice, we are supposed to act and live in ways which are counterfactual to the present way of things; we are not to be collaborators with death, but stand in defiance of death as advocates of life. The day is coming when every sword and spear is beaten into instruments of life rather than death, and where men will no longer remember the ways of war; but even today should be the day that we say we trust not in chariots or their horses, but in the Lord; today is the day that we say justice for our neighbor. We don't merely say "the wicked will face Judgment" and never do anything; we place barriers in the way of temporal evil with temporal judgments, not denying the future Judgment nor thinking our judgments replace God's; but we recognize that for the sake of good for us and our neighbors there needs to be an ordered society of rules. There needs to be some semblance of justice right now, even in the midst of this unjust world of death and decay. Where we promote life and the flourishing of life, rather than collaborate and become complicit with the wickedness of death. That applies to everything, from the microscopic level of our day-to-day interpersonal relationships, to the macroscopic level of human governance, the organization of society, and our relationship with non-human creation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Carl Emerson

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Anything is idolatrous when it replaces the Lord.

I believe that good theology includes good theology about creation. And good theology about creation means recognizing the innate goodness of the creation. The earth is good, there is an innate goodness because God is the Author of creation and He declared all that He made "exceedingly good".

We also live in an age of death and disorder, creation suffers and is subjugated to the futility of death and decay, out of which God is going to rescue and redeem it. That is why we believe in the healing and redemption of creation: new heavens and new earth. But our future hope is never permitted to be an excuse for present evil. This is true of many things, such as justice. We believe, and hope, that in the end God's justice shall prevail and all shall be made right; because in this fallen world there is great injustice. But this present injustice, and our hope for future justice is never permitted as an excuse for us to be complacent--or worse, complicit--in present injustice. When God established His covenant with Israel He established His Law, He made Israel to be a nation of justice and order in an unjust and disordered world; a place where rather than more of the same injustice--the poor, the hungry, the needy being left out and suffering--Israel was to be a people who took care of the least of these, where there would be justice for widows, justice for victims, justice for the poor, the hungry, and the needy. Where those who committed injustice would be brought to justice, and there would be restitution.

Which is why Christians have always also upheld the necessity of a lawful, just, and peaceful (insofar as it is possible) society in which there can be human flourishing. We love our neighbor, not merely by abstaining from cruel acts toward them, but by actively seeking what is good for our neighbor, holding to the Rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This has always been the essence of Christian ethics, to do what is right, and to seek the good not just for ourselves but for our neighbors, especially for the marginalized and the least of these.

In application to creation, broadly speaking, again Scripture speaks quite clearly against evil against God's creation. Cruelty toward animals is forbidden, sinful, and evil. The laws which governed Israel included laws for letting beasts of burden feed upon part of the field crop as well as setting aside part of the yield as a tithe for the Levites, foreigners, and the poor. "You shall not muzzle the ox" means exactly this.

The bounty of the earth is to be celebrated as God's gift, rather than treated as something to be exploited--the exploitation of God's good creation has often been a source of not just acts of cruelty toward creation, but cruelty toward our neighbors. When we go to war over resources, people suffer; when we seek to steal the land of others we make it so those others cannot enjoy the bounty of that land. When we poison our lakes and rivers we harm everything that depends on those lakes and streams--including ourselves, the towns and villages where people need clean drinking water, and depend on the health of the land to provide food, and labor.

Environmental concerns should never become an idol. But Christian ethics, and good theology, means that we understand that while in this present fallen age there is evil and injustice, we are supposed to act and live in ways which are counterfactual to the present way of things; we are not to be collaborators with death, but stand in defiance of death as advocates of life. The day is coming when every sword and spear is beaten into instruments of life rather than death, and where men will no longer remember the ways of war; but even today should be the day that we say we trust not in chariots or their horses, but in the Lord; today is the day that we say justice for our neighbor. We don't merely say "the wicked will face Judgment" and never do anything; we place barriers in the way of temporal evil with temporal judgments, not denying the future Judgment nor thinking our judgments replace God's; but we recognize that for the sake of good for us and our neighbors there needs to be an ordered society of rules. There needs to be some semblance of justice right now, even in the midst of this unjust world of death and decay. Where we promote life and the flourishing of life, rather than collaborate and become complicit with the wickedness of death. That applies to everything, from the microscopic level of our day-to-day interpersonal relationships, to the macroscopic level of human governance, the organization of society, and our relationship with non-human creation.

-CryptoLutheran

This is beautifully put - thank you. We do our best to steward in love the creation around us which has been subject to corruption while at the same time look forward to a new heavens and a new earth. He Himself cursed the ground, but we do not have that mandate.
 
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