Sports Should Unify, Not Divide Us

[Zaha Torte]

People from every group are capable.

Agreed.

Now that we got that out of the way - what do you consider to be "grooming" and "sexual deviant" behavior?

 

[Nithavela]

The sports issue is the only thing the right has to provide cover and legitimize their hatred.

That's not fair. They also have the "protect the children!" angle.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

That's not fair. They also have the "protect the children!" angle.

QED:

Agreed.

Now that we got that out of the way - what do you consider to be "grooming" and "sexual deviant" behavior?

 

[Pommer]

Agreed.

Now that we got that out of the way - what do you consider to be "grooming" and "sexual deviant" behavior?

How’s about “praying” to a magic cloth?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Agreed.

Now that we got that out of the way - what do you consider to be "grooming" and "sexual deviant" behavior?

"Grooming" is the process of manipulating a person in service of making them more receptive to inappropriate sexual advances.

"Sexual deviant" is rather more subjective, but since it's got the word "sexual" in there, it obviously means that it's related to sexual activity or desire. So, if one were to establish that transgenderism is an example of sexual deviancy, one would first have to establish that transgenderism is driven by sexual desire or sexual activity.

 

[durangodawood]

Deviance is activity that graphs somewhere outside the norm. How far out, I'll defer to statisticians.

Generally, deviance is fine unless youre harming others.

 

[Zaha Torte]

QED:

I was not the one who brought up these terms. I want the person who brought them up to define them for me.

 

[Zaha Torte]

How’s about “praying” to a magic cloth?

I don't know what this is in reference to, and I don't see how it would be relevant.

 

[Zaha Torte]

"Grooming" is the process of manipulating a person in service of making them more receptive to inappropriate sexual advances.

I would a use different definition - because the term is not always used in a sexual way or be an attempt to open up someone to sexual advances.

For example, a gang might begin grooming younger people in order to later use them to sell drugs or do other activities - or how terrorists groups groom young people to join their causes.

The definition I would use is the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.

Do you find that definition to be reasonable?

"Sexual deviant" is rather more subjective, but since it's got the word "sexual" in there, it obviously means that it's related to sexual activity or desire. So, if one were to establish that transgenderism is an example of sexual deviancy, one would first have to establish that transgenderism is driven by sexual desire or sexual activity.

Agreed.

The three motivations for transgenderism are mental illness, sexual deviancy (fetishist) or pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

Not every transgender person is necessarily a sexual deviant.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I would a use different definition - because the terms does not always need to be sexual or be an attempt to open up someone to sexual advances.

For example, a gang might begin grooming younger people in order to later use them to sell drugs or do other activities - or how terrorists groups groom young people to join their causes.

The definition I would use is the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.

Do you find that definition to be reasonable?

No, I don't find that definition to be reasonable at all. The term "grooming" carries with it certain implications and baggage, while your definition is sufficiently broad that it encompasses virtually every religious and educational institution ever established.

Agreed.

The three motivations for transgenderism are mental illness, sexual deviancy (fetishist) or pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

Not every transgender person is necessarily a sexual deviant.

I suspect your definition of "mental illness" is more expansive than mine.

I appreciate that this is anecdotal, but I've known people who are into kinks or otherwise outside-the-norm stuff and I've known a fair number of trans people (nearly all male->female for whatever reason) and there's very little overlap between those two groups. Of the four trans women I know best, their dating habits didn't change at all from their time as a man: two are still married to and live with their wives and children; a third is in a long term relationship with a woman; and the fourth will still go home with anybody.

 

[durangodawood]

I would a use different definition - because the terms does not always need to be sexual or be an attempt to open up someone to sexual advances.

For example, a gang might begin grooming younger people in order to later use them to sell drugs or do other activities - or how terrorists groups groom young people to join their causes.

The definition I would use is the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.

Do you find that definition to be reasonable?

Sure. What pretty much every religious institution does. Even the totally wholesome Boy Scout troop I was in did this.

 

[Nithavela]

The three motivations for transgenderism are mental illness, sexual deviancy (fetishist) or pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

I thought the motivation is to defeat women at sporting events?

The definition I would use is the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.

Unless you narrow down the purposes or activities, it would be hard to find things that aren't grooming by your definition.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I thought the motivation is to defeat women at sporting events?

I never proposed that - but those who have and continue to do this are those who gain pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

Unless you narrow down the purposes or activities, it would be hard to find things that aren't grooming by your definition.

Correct - which is why context is key.

 

[rambot]

I never proposed that - but those who have and continue to do this are those who gain pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

Huh. Do you think Trans people actually gain pleasure from "deceiving/controlling others"?

I'm more inclined to think that they just want to identify as a woman.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Huh. Do you think Trans people actually gain pleasure from "deceiving/controlling others"?

I'm more inclined to think that they just want to identify as a woman.

It's either mental illness, sexual fetish or pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

And yes - I think people - not just transgender people - can gain pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

 

[rambot]

It's either mental illness, sexual fetish or pleasure from deceiving/controlling others.

When you have asked Transgender people, which one do they say it is?

 

[Zaha Torte]

No, I don't find that definition to be reasonable at all. The term "grooming" carries with it certain implications and baggage, while your definition is sufficiently broad that it encompasses virtually every religious and educational institution ever established.

You are correct that context is key - which is why I pointed this definition out.

Do you believe it is possible for someone to accuse a transgender person of being a "groomer" without implicating that they were trying to manipulate someone into having sex with them?

I suspect your definition of "mental illness" is more expansive than mine.

Maybe - but believing that you are a member of the opposite sex is definitely a mental illness.

I appreciate that this is anecdotal, but I've known people who are into kinks or otherwise outside-the-norm stuff and I've known a fair number of trans people (nearly all male->female for whatever reason) and there's very little overlap between those two groups. Of the four trans women I know best, their dating habits didn't change at all from their time as a man: two are still married to and live with their wives and children; a third is in a long term relationship with a woman; and the fourth will still go home with anybody.

I believe that there being more males claiming to be females or at least desiring to be recognized as a woman may be related to how we have decided to treat young boys in our education system and the stigma surrounding masculinity.

Why do you describe these men as transgender?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Sure. What pretty much every religious institution does. Even the totally wholesome Boy Scout troop I was in did this.

The term "grooming" does not always imply sex.

 

[Zaha Torte]

When you have asked Transgender people, which one do they say it is?

I have yet to ask them. Do you think that is an appropriate question for me to ask?

 

[rambot]

I have yet to ask them. Do you think that is an appropriate question for me to ask?

In my personal opinion.... I do think that you should actually interaction with many transgender person before you label them with some pretty awful labels.

Do I think you should ask that question? I would hope you would. Do you believe that if you asked them that, it would have been the worst thing said about AND to them that day?

How would you expect them to react?